What's the most Cringeworthy Alternate History you've ever read?
- Thread starter Silent Runner
- Start date
- Post-1900
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
OUR internet classics, timeless pieces of absurdist humour vs THEIR stupid modern internet brainrot
Is there some mythical past where alternatehistory.com was some paradise? I've only been around AH.com since the 2010s, but as far I can tell, 2000s AH.com was still debating the merits of Operation Sealion (hell, a Sealion TL won a Turtledove in 2005) and Lost Causers and Wehraboos were far more overt (e.g. Robert Perkins).
As for my experience when I started browsing the forums, ASB was absolutely rife with people throwing around mass death scenarios (the rule against it wasn't always there), plenty of people writing grimderp timelines (Rumsfeldia, Green Antarctica), a ton of rivet counting, badly inaccurate and plagiarized timelines winning Turtledoves (Burnished Rows of Steel) and practically no interest in Africa, Asia, or Latin America aside from how they can function as pawns for Europe or the United States.
Sure, most of AH.com sucks right now, but I think that held true for the site's entire history.
As for my experience when I started browsing the forums, ASB was absolutely rife with people throwing around mass death scenarios (the rule against it wasn't always there), plenty of people writing grimderp timelines (Rumsfeldia, Green Antarctica), a ton of rivet counting, badly inaccurate and plagiarized timelines winning Turtledoves (Burnished Rows of Steel) and practically no interest in Africa, Asia, or Latin America aside from how they can function as pawns for Europe or the United States.
Sure, most of AH.com sucks right now, but I think that held true for the site's entire history.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Alternate History has a bit of quality control problem but that's more down to site architecture and unenforced rules on formatting.
Simeon
only Binay only Binay
- Location
- somewhere
- Pronouns
- Whatever
Anyways — considering TL's like Chaos and Dominion of Southern America — such TL's with dubious research alongside milquetoast historiography and plotting have always existed even back in those times when library-diving was far more popular.
Stuff like this is more of a function of toleration and even outright ignorance about BS rather than an indication of everyone's depth of knowledge in this genre and their subject matter — not even reflecting everyone's appreciation on the latter.
If anything, those were more chill and peaceful times because most of us didn't know better — at least not yet — on how insidious (or ar least inane) such antics can get, as well as not having the axioms and standards that we do now on what makes for well-researched and masterfully-written TL's.
I think it's about time someone returned to the concept of a Green Antarctica in full and do it right, perhaps something in the same vein as A Land of Red and Gold by Jared.
Rumsfeldia's predecessor had some good things going for it, I always appreciate a timeline that takes certain premises like "well if this politician had won, then we'd all be living in a utopia!" And tries to deconstruct them, showing the unintended consequences of such events actualizing. Always liked those kinds of timelines. Then of course the timeline quickly spirals into a left-wing dystopia where Rumsfeld becomes a left-wing caricature and introduces pseudo-Ancapism to America , and countries like Israel and Japan become fascist dictatorships for some reason. You can tell it's a timeline made by a left-wing Canadian.
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- He/Him
I have a growing frustration with submods and headcanons for TNO never doing anything extreme or radically different to the big powers
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- They/Them
Japan and Israel going far right is... not that surprising or weird?
I mean, the weirdest thing is that it'd require the LDP to believe in literally anything besides grift, corruption, and beige evil, but... it's still not that implausible?
Israel has literally, IRL, been moving further right for just about my entire lifetime?
E: It's a common "imagine the future" thing to take a trend and exaggerate and/or extrapolate it. It's often not entirely accurate, but it makes sense where it comes from?
I mean, the weirdest thing is that it'd require the LDP to believe in literally anything besides grift, corruption, and beige evil, but... it's still not that implausible?
Israel has literally, IRL, been moving further right for just about my entire lifetime?
E: It's a common "imagine the future" thing to take a trend and exaggerate and/or extrapolate it. It's often not entirely accurate, but it makes sense where it comes from?
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Israel becoming a fascist state in the 80s is not plausible at all. Not only were no major Israeli parties aiming for that, Israeli society was also not interested in replacing their democracy with a right-wing dictatorship.
Same goes with Japan, can't see them magically embracing militaristic fascism again, to this day repealing Article 9 remains quite controversial. There is in fact a difference between center-right Conservative Parties and literal Fascism.
Anyways i won't engage in anymore Israel talk, it was a mistake to mention that country, as it will always inspire heated political debate.
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Whats the least cringe TL that uses the cliche of "Valkyrie/Valkyrie-adjacent/Valkyrie-ish plot goes through to success with caveats, seeks a separate peace with the WAllies/sabotage the Allied war effort by making the Soviets think a separate peace is being reached if the WAllies laugh it off to force their hand"?
I sort of did one? It wasn't LoRaG-style grounded but it was a short timeline called A Lighter Shade of Black told through a flag series where the Tsalal POD was that the original Yag survived the floods, creating a recurring democratic tradition and butterflying the Necrophile Empire among other things. As part of it I also tweaked two aspects of the broader world I didn't care for, namely a lack of butterflies in the north from first contact (both geopolitically and ideologically) and my more niche disappointment the Tsalal lacked a classical elemental system 😂
- Location
- Rex, NC, USA
Rumsfeldia is basically an exaggerated version of the OTL 80s just like how Fear, Loathing, and Gumbo was an exaggerated version of the OTL 70s.
If you mean "Israel abolishing the trappings of formal liberal democracy" then yes that wouldn't happen in the 80s. Secularism was much stronger in Israel back then than today.
Israel going on a killing spree in the 80s due to greater American diplomatic permission is very plausible.
OTL it was Ronald Reagan himself who called the Israeli prime minister and told him he was doing a Holocaust in Beirut and to cease and desist.
I think I recall there are a few TLs where the Americans have the IDF do a coup to get a firmer leash on Tel Aviv when the butterflies bring the forebears of the post 2nd intifada power brokers to power ahead of time.
It would be an interesting purely hypothetical "never would happen" scenario to have a US Military IDF conflict.
The Israeli Air Force is so insanely maxed out i imagine the USAF would have to just try and isolate it from resupply and pound Air fields with missiles to avoid unsustainable losses.
The Israeli Air Force is so insanely maxed out i imagine the USAF would have to just try and isolate it from resupply and pound Air fields with missiles to avoid unsustainable losses.
- Location
- Amman, Jordan
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
The IAF is insanely maxed out - but it has a severe stamina problem. The USA can just outnumber it, and the Israeli economy isn't built for long conflicts, Gaza aside. Even then, one can argue Gaza is more of a cleanup operation rather than a full-blown war.
But yes, the US Armed Forces would have to basically starve Israel for parts, and bomb the airfields long range.
As for the other armed forces, I don't think the IDF ground and sea forces are really up to par. I mean, the IAF gets plenty of exercise because it's the weapon of choice to take out enemy forces in Gaza and Lebanon, but one-on-one the IDF really pales in contrast to the more combat-trained US Armed Forces.
But yes, the US Armed Forces would have to basically starve Israel for parts, and bomb the airfields long range.
As for the other armed forces, I don't think the IDF ground and sea forces are really up to par. I mean, the IAF gets plenty of exercise because it's the weapon of choice to take out enemy forces in Gaza and Lebanon, but one-on-one the IDF really pales in contrast to the more combat-trained US Armed Forces.
As to the "not built for long conflicts" point It's going to be interesting when austerity gets introduced the second fighting slows at all and benefits get cut to the bone.
The Liberty incident snowballs into Johnson putting boots on the ground to effectively wipe away Israel's gains in the 6 day war? (and probably half the gains of the first Arab Israeli war)
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Your mileage my vary but I felt that the exaggeration/satire was more on point in FLG than it was in Rumsfeldia. With hindsight, I think the story would have been better served with a spiritual sequel than a direct one - maybe have something go really wrong in the OTL 1980 campaign much as McKeithen created the conditions for a deadlock in 1972.
- Location
- France
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- He/Him
I recently finished watching the new adaptation of Shogun and remembered this comment.
Comrade Future
Man from Zeerust
- Location
- USSR
- Pronouns
- He/His/Him
Perfect - it's just a pity that she's Catholic.I recently finished watching the new adaptation of Shogun and remembered this comment.
Simeon
only Binay only Binay
- Location
- somewhere
- Pronouns
- Whatever
It's the 21st century, and y'all are still concerned with popery?
Comrade Future
Man from Zeerust
- Location
- USSR
- Pronouns
- He/His/Him
Not really. There are two sides to the question - on the one hand, I have sympathy for various "pagan" and native cults, and when they have a conflict with Christianity, I automatically support them (even if we are talking about Mesoamerica). On the other hand, I am a radical atheist, and if in general I cannot tell people how to think (it is their personal business), then if we are talking about, say, a hypothetical wife, then this matters. And one of the points of my wishes is that she should not have religious views (Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are at the top of the list - with the exception of Quakerism, Quakerism is good). Because I don't want to waste the relationship on religious arguments that turn into arguments about how to properly raise children and other things, like - "Sugar, I still think that we should postpone the baptism of children until they are 18 years old, when they themselves become adults and decide religious issues on their own. Sorry, but I remind you that I am not part of the church. No, I don't think that we should proceed from the fact that they can die at any second. If God is truly good, then it will not be difficult for him to let charming babies into Heaven."
Moving on:
Do premises that are pretty inherently unlikely/wildly optimistic TLs automatically count as cringe
Example: by some bizarre good fortune Al-Andalus and/or its successor states stick around long enough to get in on the "lets try conquer and exploit the rest of the planet, including our coreligionists" craze with the other Iberian states like Portugal, Castille, Aragon etc?
Do premises that are pretty inherently unlikely/wildly optimistic TLs automatically count as cringe
Example: by some bizarre good fortune Al-Andalus and/or its successor states stick around long enough to get in on the "lets try conquer and exploit the rest of the planet, including our coreligionists" craze with the other Iberian states like Portugal, Castille, Aragon etc?