What would Human society be like if women lived two, five or ten times longer than men?

ThePoarter

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Case 1: Women live around two times longer than men
  • Total Women to Men Ratio in this Society: 1.88 to 1
  • Total Fertile Women to Men Ratio (i.e. have not hit menopause): 0.72 to 1
  • Total Fertile Women to Similar Aged Men Ratio: 1.06 to 1
  • Life Expectancy of Men: 88 Years
  • Life Expectancy of Women: 160 Years
  • Age of Menopause: 74 Years
Case 2: Women live around Five times longer than men
  • Total Women to Men Ratio in this Society: 4.02 to 1
  • Total Fertile Women to Men Ratio (i.e. have not hit menopause): 1.52 to 1
  • Total Fertile Women to Similar Aged Men Ratio: 1.51 to 1
  • Life Expectancy of Men: 88 Years
  • Life Expectancy of Women: 378 Years
  • Age of Menopause: 161 Years
Case 3: Women live around ten times longer than men
  • Total Women to Men Ratio in this Society: 8.09 to 1
  • Total Fertile Women to Men Ratio (i.e. have not hit menopause): 3.28 to 1
  • Total Fertile Women to Similar Aged Men Ratio: 3.24 to 1
  • Life Expectancy of Men: 88 Years
  • Life Expectancy of Women: 738 Years
  • Age of Menopause: 306 Years

Keep in mind that both men and women hit adulthood at the around the same time in this case but one just has the capability of living longer. Case 1 is the only one that has been noticed in mammals whereas case 2 and 3 have only been seen in plants and insects. Please discuss it here.
 
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If women truly do live around two times longer than men I gotta ask why? It may be that men are into more 'dangerous' activities like drinking, fighting, signing up for military... but then women like those things too so that cannot fully like explain it. Maybe there's something in women's biology or lifestyles that would make them live longer? Maybe they seek psychological and medical help more often so live longer? Maybe women are just more careful on average? Who knows?
 
well it's important to remember that even with an incredibly lopsided ratio of men to women in a tribe, birth rates are still going to be consistent. even if you have a hundred women to every men, the one man could still keep the tribe going. their real value is going to be as warriors, as they're in short supply and more physically capable than women in fighting. maybe we'd see a more patriarchal society, with men carrying on a tribe as well as fighting for it.
 
If women truly do live around two times longer than men I gotta ask why? It may be that men are into more 'dangerous' activities like drinking, fighting, signing up for military... but then women like those things too so that cannot fully like explain it. Maybe there's something in women's biology or lifestyles that would make them live longer? Maybe they seek psychological and medical help more often so live longer? Maybe women are just more careful on average? Who knows?

It's biological in this case. Possible but on the extreme end of large and complex mammals if it is two times.

Five times and ten times is only present in inteveterbrates to the best of my knowledge. Keep in mind this is only the modern case.
 
well it's important to remember that even with an incredibly lopsided ratio of men to women in a tribe, birth rates are still going to be consistent. even if you have a hundred women to every men, the one man could still keep the tribe going. their real value is going to be as warriors, as they're in short supply and more physically capable than women in fighting. maybe we'd see a more patriarchal society, with men carrying on a tribe as well as fighting for it.

So if women live longer than men, I don't foresee early human society changing much, however there will be dramatic changes later on.

Males are more sexually expandable, they always have been, in early human history. Testerone is associated with wanderlust. In mammals, it drives expansion of territory by having the males take dangerous risks like exploring new lands and dying.

I suspect prehistorically, most homonid bands were more or less matriarchal (this ties into various oral history, from Greco-Roman Ages of Man to the Chinese Prehistoric Mythic History, and by studying mammal and homonin societies), with the males wandering off to scout out entirely new territories or join up with other bands (and thus prevent inbreeding). Monogamy wasn't practiced until the neolithic era.

This ties into the grandmother mechanism as well— menopause was evolutionary advantageous because it means there are non-reproducing females who don't compete with younger females who help the younger females rear the next generation, ensuring that the grandmother's own genes survive via their grandchildren, thus keeping the menopause genes competitive and advantageous.

It also ties into one of the possible causes for male homosexuality— I don't quite recall the study, but male fetuses will detect the relative resource level of their mother's environment and their sexual orientation will alter to reflect the most advantageous orientation for that environment (low resource, then high probability of homosexuality, because then they become non-competing members). The genes that allow for this mechanism are then passed on via nephews or nieces through their reproducing sisters and brothers rather than their own offspring (which they don't have), and of course, because the "gay uncle" helps support their family's survival, so that's why these genes is persistent in the population, same as menopause (which created grandmothers).

Yes, humans bear some resemblance to eusocial mammals, in terms of the way they utilize non-reproducing members to their advantage. Actually, we might be eusocial ourselves— historically anyway.

Now, I suspect that the biggest change would be long term evolutionary changes due to more women, assuming the change in lifespan is sudden. Those women might start filling the niche of wanderlust explorers due to a lack of males. If men aren't expandable, women can be expandable.

Another possible consequence of women living twice as long as men is that monogamy might never be adopted as a strategy. If there wasn't enough man to go around in the first place, the idea that you could keep a man as an exclusive partner and support is probably laughable. More than likely, man continued to wander and mate with whichever band is willing to accept him, and the females form complex female only relationship groups. Patriarchal societies might never develop at all.
 
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I don't have an opinion on this comment as a whole, but there are a couple of points I want to isolate because they are so completely wrong.


Males are more sexually expandable

"Sexually expendable" is pseudo-scientific mumbo-jumbo.

It is not a concept in evolutionary biology and it is not a term used by real biologists.

"Sexually expendable" is a very reliable indicator that what you're reading is evo-pop garbage.


I suspect prehistorically, most homonid bands were more or less matriarchal (this ties into various oral history, from Greco-Roman Ages of Man to the Chinese Prehistoric Mythic History, and by studying mammal and homonin societies), with the males wandering off to scout out entirely new territories or join up with other bands (and thus prevent inbreeding). Monogamy wasn't practiced until the neolithic era.

Where to even begin? You seem to think of all prehistoric society as single monolithic homogenous culture that stayed the same during hundreds of thousands of years. Or is this some kind of Jungian archetype thinking? How could "Greco-Roman" or Chinese "oral histories" tell you anything about the particular social structures and mores of the inhabitants of, say, the south coast of Timor during the Minde-Riss interglacial?

Monogamy wasn't practiced until the neolithic era.

And how do you know that? Do you have a time machine? You should share it with anthropologists who'd love such a contraption to observe our ancestors and how they behaved as the proverbial fly on the wall.

Even so, monogamy is not a dichotomy. It's a spectrum of different things like serial monogamy (which is how humans are commonly described), or sexual monogamy without social monogamy. Claiming that monogamy didn't exist before the neolithic, is an extraordinary claim, de facto unfalsifiable and thus unscientific.

with the males wandering off to scout out entirely new territories or join up with other bands

Where did you get this idea that humans males have obligate exogamy?

Chimpanzees, among our closest relatives, have female exogamy. Females leave their group when they reach sexual maturity while males stay.

This is common in many human cultures too, especially agricultural ones.

Also it should be kept in mind that biological and ethnological exo/endogamy are not the same thing.


It also ties into one of the possible causes for male homosexuality— I don't quite recall the study, but male fetuses will detect the relative resource level of their mother's environment and their sexual orientation will alter to reflect the most advantageous orientation for that environment (low resource, then high probability of homosexuality, because then they become non-competing members). The genes that allow for this mechanism are then passed on via nephews or nieces through their reproducing sisters and brothers rather than their own offspring (which they don't have), and of course, because the "gay uncle" helps support their family's survival, so that's why these genes is persistent in the population, same as menopause (which created grandmothers).

This is far less egregious than any of the above, and not wrong per se, but it's a description of kin selection that could easily lead a reader to the misunderstanding that homosexual genes always lead to sterility and that gay people never reproduce on their own.

Now, while I personally think that kin selection is a very plausible hypothesis in the context of homosexuality, one should remember that no definite conclusive evidence between genome and specific homosexual traits has been established, and that it still remains just an hypothesis. Not a theory.

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I'm sorry @Numen if I'm coming off a bit aggressively; I don't mean to offend. But you're stating some extremely speculative opinions and wild guesses (or plain bullshit) in an authoritative manner that could mislead less well-informed persons as established facts.

I'm particularly dismayed at "sexually expendable", because it's two words that together sound so much like legit biology and serious-face jargon, when it's anything but.
 
I'm particularly dismayed at "sexually expendable", because it's two words that together sound so much like legit biology and serious-face jargon, when it's anything but.

Thank you for your well-reasoned critique, and I apologize for stating speculative opinions as facts. I understand there is massive diversity in early homonid and human societal models (those that we understood anyway). I also put considerable stock in oral history and mythology as providing important clues to homonid culture. I understand that this isn't by itself, scientifically admissible.

And "sexually expendable" is a term I coined myself in the context of such. In my readings on the implication of excess testosterone in lab rat behaviours; I do not recall them using that word. It was indeed speculative on my part.

I am trying to build a model of humanity as eusocial mammals, but it is, again, mostly my opinion. It would do much to explain why we have grandmothers, multiple intersex genders, and homosexuality (not that biology is the sole cause or explainer for this, and like you said, it doesn't mean they don't directly reproduce), and so forth. If they arise naturally due to kinship selection, it would explain so much...

But I am no scientist or anthropologist.
 
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Case 1: Women live around two times longer than men
  • Total Women to Men Ratio in this Society: 1.88 to 1
  • Total Fertile Women to Men Ratio (i.e. have not hit menopause): 0.72 to 1
  • Total Fertile Women to Similar Aged Men Ratio: 1.06 to 1
  • Life Expectancy of Men: 88 Years
  • Life Expectancy of Women: 160 Years
  • Age of Menopause: 74 Years
Case 2: Women live around Five times longer than men
  • Total Women to Men Ratio in this Society: 4.02 to 1
  • Total Fertile Women to Men Ratio (i.e. have not hit menopause): 1.52 to 1
  • Total Fertile Women to Similar Aged Men Ratio: 1.51 to 1
  • Life Expectancy of Men: 88 Years
  • Life Expectancy of Women: 378 Years
  • Age of Menopause: 161 Years
Case 3: Women live around two times longer than men
  • Total Women to Men Ratio in this Society: 8.09 to 1
  • Total Fertile Women to Men Ratio (i.e. have not hit menopause): 3.28 to 1
  • Total Fertile Women to Similar Aged Men Ratio: 3.24 to 1
  • Life Expectancy of Men: 88 Years
  • Life Expectancy of Women: 738 Years
  • Age of Menopause: 306 Years

Keep in mind that both men and women hit adulthood at the around the same time in this case but one just has the capability of living longer. Case 1 is the only one that has been noticed in mammals whereas case 2 and 3 have only been seen in plants and insects. Please discuss it here.


You have two instead of ten in #3
 
I'm mostly trying to work with this because one of the two times scenario results in the female to male ratio being 11:10 in one of my modern societies even with improved health care access. Generally speaking the more developed nations here have a greater female to male ratio than undeveloped ones. but this itself I'd a new circumstance. Given this situation what do you think would happen? Asking because of necromancy this thread for a book.
 
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