What if the Native Americans brought diseases to the Old World?

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Cibao Wilayet, Caliphate of Quisqueya
Now, we are all familiar that the post Colombian contact brought many virulent diseases to the New World populations who had no acquired immunity or mechanisms to fight the diseases and thus suffered immense population loss, social disruptions and what not.

But what if the Natives also had diseases the Old World had little contact with, and were similarly virulent to those with little exposure to them? (Lets say, for example, they wipe out 20% of Europe and North Africa) What effects this have on things like colonialism, society, trade and technological developments?
 
Now, we are all familiar that the post Colombian contact brought many virulent diseases to the New World populations who had no acquired immunity or mechanisms to fight the diseases and thus suffered immense population loss, social disruptions and what not.

But what if the Natives also had diseases the Old World had little contact with, and were similarly virulent to those with little exposure to them? (Lets say, for example, they wipe out 20% of Europe and North Africa) What effects this have on things like colonialism, society, trade and technological developments?

It simply couldn't happen. Any diseases of similar lethality to what the Europeans brought would wipe out the explorers before they'd have a chance to return. They'd all die in transit and their ships would be lost at sea.
 
It simply couldn't happen. Any diseases of similar lethality to what the Europeans brought would wipe out the explorers before they'd have a chance to return. They'd all die in transit and their ships would be lost at sea.

Well, maybe not all. Maybe enough of the crew stays away from the infected to survive half way though or though the whole trip.

Later on someone might get infected while disposing of the dead.
 
Well, maybe not all. Maybe enough of the crew stays away from the infected to survive half way though or though the whole trip.

Later on someone might get infected while disposing of the dead.

Ocean voyages could take months back then. People would start dying within a couple weeks. You'd need to have people throw the bodies overboard as they died, thus spreading the infection. No one is going to know to keep away from the sick and dying to prevent the spread of the disease, either. You're stuck on a relatively tiny ship where it'll spread like wildfire.
 
Ocean voyages could take months back then. People would start dying within a couple weeks. You'd need to have people throw the bodies overboard as they died, thus spreading the infection. No one is going to know to keep away from the sick and dying to prevent the spread of the disease, either. You're stuck on a relatively tiny ship where it'll spread like wildfire.

How about we stop being a stick in the mud, allow our suspension of disbelief to take hold, and consider the possibility in the OP instead of crying 'Not possible'?
 
Okay, then... Using Wikipedia's numbers, the so-called Black Death killed between 30-60% of the population of Europe. This is going to kill less, only 20% of Europe and North Africa.

It's going to do one of two things, it's going to terrify the Europeans into abandoning the Americas entirely as a land of Hellspawned Disease and Death or it's going to utterly enrage them and make the Americas the focal point of all future Crusades for the exact same reasons.
 
It simply couldn't happen. Any diseases of similar lethality to what the Europeans brought would wipe out the explorers before they'd have a chance to return. They'd all die in transit and their ships would be lost at sea.
What about a carrier brings the disease with no outward symptoms that manages to be relatively isolated from the crew during the voyage but as soon as the lands in port resumes regular contact?
 
Okay, then... Using Wikipedia's numbers, the so-called Black Death killed between 30-60% of the population of Europe. This is going to kill less, only 20% of Europe and North Africa.

It's going to do one of two things, it's going to terrify the Europeans into abandoning the Americas entirely as a land of Hellspawned Disease and Death or it's going to utterly enrage them and make the Americas the focal point of all future Crusades for the exact same reasons.
That sounds like it depends on Europeans being way better at identifying disease vectors than we're likely to be.
 
It is known that syphilis was present in the Americas before Columbus, but I don't think that's the kind of disease you're thinking of. This claim is supported by DNA analysis of the venereal syphilis outbreak amongst french troops besieging Napoli three years after columbus got back. Europeans went on to blame everyone else for it (french the italians, italians the french, dutch the spanish, russians the poles, and ottomans the christians)
 
Okay, then... Using Wikipedia's numbers, the so-called Black Death killed between 30-60% of the population of Europe. This is going to kill less, only 20% of Europe and North Africa.

It's going to do one of two things, it's going to terrify the Europeans into abandoning the Americas entirely as a land of Hellspawned Disease and Death or it's going to utterly enrage them and make the Americas the focal point of all future Crusades for the exact same reasons.
This point makes little sense to be honest. While I can see the potential causus belli for future wars, organizing a crusade into such a far away place is going to be highly difficult, especially with regards of who gets the spoils, where exactly to attack, who will do what, etc, to say nothing of the religiously divided Europe more interested in enforcing Orthodoxy on the continent and removing Kebab from the Balkans and Hungary.

Second, ever since the late 1300s, Crusading had, for lack of a better term, gone out of style. People were calling bullshit every time a crusade called, with someone (I forget who) remarking "Crusades had become a club for the pope to smack down whomever annoyed him this week". Its why pretty much every crusade after the Fifth was ignored by over one of the major players and constantly downgraded in size and scope.
 
OMG what is this thread.

It simply couldn't happen. Any diseases of similar lethality to what the Europeans brought would wipe out the explorers before they'd have a chance to return. They'd all die in transit and their ships would be lost at sea.

Because every single Native American died of European diseases and isolation was the only way any of them survived, right?

This motherfucker made the journey across the ocean twice, and still fell over to disease in the end. How about that?

Okay, then... Using Wikipedia's numbers, the so-called Black Death killed between 30-60% of the population of Europe. This is going to kill less, only 20% of Europe and North Africa.

It's going to do one of two things, it's going to terrify the Europeans into abandoning the Americas entirely as a land of Hellspawned Disease and Death or it's going to utterly enrage them and make the Americas the focal point of all future Crusades for the exact same reasons.
In the 1520s, smallpox hit Mexico so hard that it was recorded that in some regions, half the population just straight-up died over the course of less than a decade, and records indicate that the epidemic originated with one dude. In the following hundred and fifty years, 90% of the population died from disease. Most of the early New England settlements were essentially just built directly atop coastal villages which had been more or less entire wiped out, often so quickly that European settlers straight-up picked up the agricultural processes from where native efforts left off. So many native Americans died that the regrowth of trees cleared for agriculture across the continents might have caused the Little Ice Age.

The Black Death was bad, but what tuberculosis and smallpox did to the Americas was apocalyptic. There's not going to be any fucking crusades, because Europe is going to be blasted back centuries worth of infrastructure and population growth. Not to mention the complete collapse of every political system in Europe, seeing as one of the prime effects of virgin soil epidemics is that the nobility consistently get fucking shredded by the outbreak.

Oh, and that's not all! You can kiss the vast majority of European economic growth post-contact goodbye, because the most critical and most underestimated element, the cultivation of American agricultural staples like corn and potatoes probably ain't happening. That means that Europeans are probably still going to be mostly growing their much less hardy crops through this period.

Nevermind what these diseases are going to do to China, cuz China didn't do so hot when the Black Plague hit them either, and in some places like dense cities they were hit even harder.
 
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No, there is a dumb contridictory statement present.

Now, we are all familiar that the post Colombian contact brought many virulent diseases to the New World populations who had no acquired immunity or mechanisms to fight the diseases and thus suffered immense population loss, social disruptions and what not.

But what if the Natives also had diseases the Old World had little contact with, and were similarly virulent to those with little exposure to them? (Lets say, for example, they wipe out 20% of Europe and North Africa) What effects this have on things like colonialism, society, trade and technological developments?

What does "wipe out 20% of the population" mean in this context? Guess what, it means nothing. You have to attach a timescale to it at the very least. Without that, it's a useless statement and I'll use the one that actually makes sense, the "similarly virulent" one. Especially because the 20% statement isn't "OP fiat" is it explicitly prefixed with "for example", indicating nothing but a complete ignorance of the effects of disease on the Native American population.

Also, they aren't "very irrelevant" points because you still said this...

It simply couldn't happen. Any diseases of similar lethality to what the Europeans brought would wipe out the explorers before they'd have a chance to return. They'd all die in transit and their ships would be lost at sea.

And that's so wrong I don't even know where to begin. Oh wait, i do, with entirely relevant counter-examples.
 
How on earth would there be a Crusade when the social fabric of your entire society is being torn to pieces by disease?
 
How on earth would there be a Crusade when the social fabric of your entire society is being torn to pieces by disease?

The Crusade of Nicopolis was launched less than forty-five years after the Black Death pandemic ended in Europe, and we've established that the Black Death was significantly more lethal than what the OP has decided the American diseases will be. Oh sure, it'll stall the Europeans, but it won't stop them.
 
A disease like this only 150 years after the Black Death would be incredibly damaging to the fabric of European life. It would likely accelerate the collapse of traditional social structures with another increase in wages and more instability. People often forget the peasant revolts, heresy, and chaos that succeeded the Black Death. By 1500 some areas still hadn't fully recovered, and this will make things very bad.

Also, it will probably do some very bad things to more fragile or centralized societies. The Mamluks were economically decimated by the Black Death, with depopulation causing huge sections of their agricultural cultivation to collapse and for them to go into an economic morass they wouldn't recover from.
 
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No, there is a dumb contridictory statement present.

What does "wipe out 20% of the population" mean in this context? Guess what, it means nothing. You have to attach a timescale to it at the very least. Without that, it's a useless statement and I'll use the one that actually makes sense, the "similarly virulent" one. Especially because the 20% statement isn't "OP fiat" is it explicitly prefixed with "for example", indicating nothing but a complete ignorance of the effects of disease on the Native American population.

Also, they aren't "very irrelevant" points because you still said this...
Whoa, calm yourself the fuck down. What beef I got with you? Did I violate your family sometime that you sound so pissed? :???:

When I meant by something of a similar virulence, I am referring to a large scale epidemic (possibly a pandemic) in which the new area of outbreak lacks the critical immunity gained via a society having regular contact with a disease. No shit, I don't know anything about how disease spread during the Post Colombian period on the Native Americans other that, "they did damage and killed lots of people." I'm kinda curious to how that happened and what if it went both ways; because I'm not aware of any new diseases being spread to back to the Old World after the contact period aside from syphilis, which I learned from this thread.

I've no numbers to work with and what not as I don't know much on this field of history (I don't know shit from Timur to Toussaint Louverture) and I'm being purposefully vague.

If you'd like a timescale, lets go for the say, half a century after initial contact with the New World is confirmed. From around 1490-1540 for instance when the Spanish are beginning their involvement in New World affairs. There, some new disease(s) spread to the continents of Europe and North Africa that the population there has never experience. It kills people alot; not like some Tse-tse derived fever and what not but it does manage to take a good chunk of the populace before successive generations build up an immunity.

How does that affect the societies of the Old World, how do they change for it and what happens to Colonization? That's it bro, no need to try to cut ass on me.
 
If the diseases start when the voyages to the Americas begin, that's going to be seen as a pretty huge sign from god...
A lot of people knew the plague was coming off of ships that were coming from the far east, and strangely enough no Crusades against China were ever contemplated or declared. In the event of a North American plague odds are that they'll just take it out on the jews like they did before.
 
A lot of people knew the plague was coming off of ships that were coming from the far east, and strangely enough no Crusades against China were ever contemplated or declared. In the event of a North American plague odds are that they'll just take it out on the jews like they did before.

Fair enough. Argument withdrawn.
 
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