What if France implemented Nuclear Fusion into its energy grid metier in 2007?

ThePoarter

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Let's say that in 2006 France discovered how to properly use nuclear fusion. The only prerequisite is that you need a workforce and grid network which uses fission well. After a year of jockeying the country implements fusion throughout its entire grid. Now energy is far more abundant e.g. St past eight to twenty times more. What happens now?
 
French power companies go bankrupt because they're hemoraging money on fusion plants, which are just absurdly more expensive fission plants, and then they go more bankrupt paying for 8-20 times more power plants than France actually needs.

The incompetence and cost is so high that the entire French government collapses and we end up with the 6th French Republic.

As this is 2007 the collapse happens just in time for the Great Recession, except with the addition of a French collapse it turns into a full blown Great Depression.

Greece goes bankrupt, followed by Spain, Portugal, Italy, the Baltics and more. The entire EU is in economic freefall and it spreads worldwide as stocks go up in flames and unemployment skyrockets.

Reeling bankrupt EU countries look to monetary policy to reduce the value of their debt, but find that due to being on the Euro they can't. Greece, followed by others, quickly sieze the Euro printing presses in their countries and declare a new currency based on their regional Euro, effectively making their own currency but with extra confusion. Conflicts from the seizures and the confusion cause the EU itself to implode, putting Europe back to the pre-EU status quo.

With no one buying their exports and an economy in freefall, Germany looks to consolidate its resources and internal market, and pushes for unification with Austria and the Netherlands, which the two even worse off countries eagerly agree to. Switzerland is made the same offer, but refuses, being relatively intact due to massive gold reserves and acting as one of the few stable currencies as the world collapses. Seeing the writing on the wall, Poland nuclearizes, and Germany does the same.

Hoping to stop Poland while they still don't have nukes, and while France, the UK, and Russia are still distracted internally, Germany launches a military offensive into Poland...
 
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French power companies go bankrupt because they're hemoraging money on fusion plants, which are just absurdly more expensive fission plants, and then they go more bankrupt paying for 8-20 times more power plants than France actually needs.

The incompetence and cost is so high that the entire French government collapses and we end up with the 6th French Republic.

As this is 2007 the collapse happens just in time for the Great Recession, except with the addition of a French collapse it turns into a full blown Great Depression.

Greece goes bankrupt, followed by Spain, Portugal, Italy, the Baltics and more. The entire EU is in economic freefall and it spreads worldwide as stocks go up in flames and unemployment skyrockets.

Reeling bankrupt EU countries look to monetary policy to reduce the value of their debt, but find that due to being on the Euro they can't. Greece, followed by others, quickly sieze the Euro printing presses in their countries and declare a new currency based on their regional Euro, effectively making their own currency but with extra confusion. Conflicts from the seizures and the confusion cause the EU itself to implode, putting Europe back to the pre-EU status quo.

With no one buying their exports and an economy in freefall, Germany looks to consolidate its resources and internal market, and pushes for unification with Austria and the Netherlands, which the two even worse off countries eagerly agree to. Switzerland is made the same offer, but refuses, being relatively intact due to massive gold reserves and acting as one of the few stable currencies as the world collapses. Seeing the writing on the wall, Poland nuclearizes, and Germany does the same.

Hoping to stop Poland while they still don't have nukes, and while France, the UK, and Russia are still distracted internally, Germany launches a military offensive into Poland...
Yeah. I'm gonna ask you to be serious here. There's eight to twenty times more power.
 
"Germany invades Poland again"

Yikes. Its not like Germany could produce nuclear weapons (at least) just as fast as Poland, even in your crazy scenario....

Why invade when building its own nuclear deterrent is far cheaper for the Greater FRG?
 
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The fusion plants probably wouldn't be built, certainly not on the scale proposed. France has so much surplus nuclear fission capacity that it has to idle plants over the weekend even while being the world's largest exporter of electricity.
 

France has consistently been one of the top three electricity exporters in the world. It was the largest between 1988 and 2007 and also in 2011 and 2014. Germany may have surpassed France in gross electricity exports in recent years but it also imports far more electricity, so in net terms it is less consistent.

And idling power plants at times of reduced demand isn't anything special

It's not unheard of but it is something that is preferable to avoid in large steam plants (both fossil fuel and nuclear). They are capital intensive facilities with low fuel costs and it is preferable to run them at full output as much as possible. It also isn't as easy to adjust output in a steam plant as in a turbine (gas or water) plant, and if a steam plant is shut down it takes longer to get them back online.
 
Could France simply build one for demonstration then make the big bucks by licensing them? The expertise is probably more valuable than the plant. And replacing the existing fission plants would mean having to close them, something we're still wondering how to do properly.

If the cost/benefit is as the OP describe, which I find unlikely, France would quickly become the place to come build your energy hungry projects. Electricity is already cheaper here, but it would magnify that effect. More French data centers?
 
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Yeah. I'm gonna ask you to be serious here. There's eight to twenty times more power.

I am being serious. Anyone that supplies 8-20 times more than the market demands goes bankrupt. Anyone that supplies 8-20 times more than the market demands, and they do so at more than the regular cost of other producers, goes super-ultra-mega bankrupt since there can't even be an expansion of buyers from a cheaper product.

C&D is an anti-fusion partisan for some reason.

Fusion power is unlikely to have any cost advantage over fission for the foreseeable future, even if we get it to work.
 
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I am being serious. Anyone that supplies 8-20 times more than the market demands goes bankrupt. Anyone that supplies 8-20 times more than the market demands, and they do so at more than the regular cost of other produces, goes super-ultra-mega bankrupt.
Uh, no, it's now 'France powers Western Europe', not 'Fifth Republic collapses from incompetence'. Energy exports are, after all, a thing.
Fusion power is unlikely to have any cost advantage over fission for the foreseeable future, even if we get it to work.
Even if fusion costs the same as fission, we'd still prefer it, due to cheaper fuel and lack of heavily radioactive waste products.
 
Uh, no, it's now 'France powers Western Europe', not 'Fifth Republic collapses from incompetence'. Energy exports are, after all, a thing.

Even ignoring the fact Europe won't get all their power from France on principle if nothing else, there literally isn't enough infrastructure to transfer all that power.

Even if fusion costs the same as fission, we'd still prefer it, due to cheaper fuel and lack of heavily radioactive waste products.

Sure, that's true. That doesn't prevent France from going bankrupt though.
 
Uh, no, it's now 'France powers Western Europe', not 'Fifth Republic collapses from incompetence'. Energy exports are, after all, a thing.

Even if fusion costs the same as fission, we'd still prefer it, due to cheaper fuel and lack of heavily radioactive waste products.

Depends. Cheaper than U-235? Probably yes.

Cheaper than Thorium? Eehhh, maybe. It depends on your fusion fuel. Is it regular old light water? Heavy water? PURE deuterium oxide? Tritium? Something weirder? This is kind of the problem with talking about fusion in terms like this; we still have no idea whether it will be cheap or expensive because so far nobody has managed to do it at all.

I'd love fusion power to work out and save us all from our woes, but at the moment, we have no idea when that will happen or if it will ever happen, whereas we're pretty sure we could work the kinks out of fission if we only had the chance. Rather than chance it on a power source that we have no idea whether it will be viable at all or not, I'd rather put more effort into fission, which we have very good reason to believe we can fix.

Sure, that's true. That doesn't prevent France from going bankrupt though.

This however is absolute nonsense. The outcome of "France has twenty times as much energy" is not "French energy companies go bankrupt." it's "France starts using twenty times as much energy."

France would practically overnight become the world standard for refining metals, for example. Everyone would want french steel, because they can make more of it at better quality for less money than anyone else in the world. Any industry where the price of energy is a bottleneck suddenly has that blown wide open. I wouldn't be surprised if they sold half their power to northern africa for them to use desalinating the Med.
 
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This however is absolute nonsense. The outcome of "France has twenty times as much energy" is not "French energy companies go bankrupt." it's "France starts using twenty times as much energy."

France would practically overnight become the world standard for refining metals, for example. Everyone would want french steel, because they can make more of it at better quality for less money than anyone else in the world.

No, France will go bankrupt because France ISN'T the world standard for refining metals.

In 5 to 20 years, sure, I can see those liquidated powerplants being reopened at a bargain bin price to power metal refineries, and France running maybe double or triple as much power as they do now, but in the immediate time nobody is buying that power and they will go bankrupt.

There simply isn't anything for France to use 8-20 times more energy ON at the moment. You're talking about moving literally a United States of industry to France to waste that much energy.
 
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No, France will go bankrupt because France ISN'T the world standard for refining metals.

In 5 to 20 years, sure, I can see those liquidated powerplants being reopened at a bargain bin price to power metal refineries, and France running maybe double or triple as much power as they do now, but in the immediate time nobody is buying that power and they will go bankrupt.

There simply isn't anything for France to use 8-20 times more energy ON at the moment. You're talking about moving literally a United States of industry to France to waste that much energy.

Hardly. If nothing else the French government has an enormous incentive to subsidize those power plants until customers do show up, and even if they don't, France can always put power plants in the UK and Germany out of business instead of their own.
 
Hardly. If nothing else the French government has an enormous incentive to subsidize those power plants until customers do show up, and even if they don't, France can always put power plants in the UK and Germany out of business instead of their own.

They can't. You physically cannot run the entire power output of the UK or Germany from France to the UK or Germany. The infrastructure isn't there.

They can subsidize the powerplants to keep them open, yes, which is why France will go bankrupt. Between protectionism and the Great Recession gutting France's economy and international investment, it will be a while until those industries arrive, and nowhere near soon enough to prevent France from hemorrhaging money.

Heck, within the past year the French revolted over a gas tax hike, what do you think will happen when they're expected to foot the bill for a massive subsidy to power plants because the government was stupid enough to build more power capacity than the entire USA uses?
 
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They can't. You physically cannot run the entire power output of the UK or Germany from France to the UK or Germany. The infrastructure isn't there.

They can subsidize the powerplants to keep them open, yes, which is why France will go bankrupt. Between protectionism and the Great Recession gutting France's economy and international investment, it will be a while until those industries arrive, and nowhere near soon enough to prevent France from hemorrhaging money.

Heck, within the past year the French revolted over a gas tax hike, what do you think will happen when they're expected to foot the bill for a massive subsidy to power plants because the government was stupid enough to build more power capacity than the entire USA uses?

I think you are enormously overestimating how expensive this is. How expensive do you think a fusion plant is to run? Because it's not "Trillions of dollars per year" or some other ridiculous idea. The economy of france is -quite- large, and completely capable of paying to keep the doors open for some power plants while they wait for infrastructure build outs.
 
I think you are enormously overestimating how expensive this is. How expensive do you think a fusion plant is to run? Because it's not "Trillions of dollars per year" or some other ridiculous idea. The economy of france is -quite- large, and completely capable of paying to keep the doors open for some power plants while they wait for infrastructure build outs.

Run? Probably not too much.

Build? At least as expensive as fission plants, if not far more, and there's no company in the world with enough money to build such a ridiculous number so it must have been done with government money.
 
If excess capacity is a problem you can just ... leave some of your power plants turned off. Fusion reactors are (almost certainly) going to be inactive hunks of metal unless you actively and continuously do stuff to keep the reaction going, and even if they're some exotic design that's somehow always on by default you can just dump the excess energy into the Atlantic Ocean or something.

Of course, realistically nobody is going to build such massive over-capacity unless they anticipate some use for it. Realistically, people will build enough capacity up to satisfy plausible demand and then stop. This scenario makes much more sense if you interpret "energy is far more abundant e.g. St past eight to twenty times more" as meaning energy is now 8-20 times cheaper.
 
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Yeah so here the changes at implemented but a change here is just a switch which goes from off to either fusion or fission here. And yes you can choose energy usage which allows the same energy to be made at 8-20 times cheaper.
 
Depends. Cheaper than U-235? Probably yes.

Cheaper than Thorium? Eehhh, maybe. It depends on your fusion fuel. Is it regular old light water? Heavy water? PURE deuterium oxide? Tritium? Something weirder? This is kind of the problem with talking about fusion in terms like this; we still have no idea whether it will be cheap or expensive because so far nobody has managed to do it at all.
You could say the same thing about Thorium. There are currently zero operating plants and no concrete plans to build one and still several problems that need to be solved before one could be built.
 
You could say the same thing about Thorium. There are currently zero operating plants and no concrete plans to build one and still several problems that need to be solved before one could be built.

There are in fact several plans to build one.

A Thorium-Salt Reactor Has Fired Up for the First Time in Four Decades

New project re-ignites European interest in thorium - Watt-Logic



A test LFTR reactor already exists.


India Commits to Fast Reactor Fuel Cycle Facility for U-233 | Energy Central

India wants a fast cycle breeder for some reason.


And there are other projects in the works already.

Now if you mean operating COMMERCIAL plants, there are indeed no current reactors, but there are plans for them. What's more, even if there were no plans to build any such reactors, we know that we could. We know the science works. We know the engineering works. We know the economics work. We know it would work if we build it, we just haven't yet.

Fusion? We have no fucking idea if that'll work at all. We're just barely scratching at the net-energy-gain barrier, and that's a far cry from commercial viability. If we had ITER up and running right now, today, it might be possible to build fusion faster than we could build thorium. But it's not. It probably won't be working for a decade.
 
Keep in mind here that France has already been running fusion for over twelve years for the majority of its power. As a result imagine, thanks to greater energy, that it's at least two to three times more wealthy. It's also impossible to effectively energy embargo since it can get most of its stuff quite easily.

As a result of fusion crops in greenhouses can be grown, water desalination and some probes to space. How would this change French politics?
 
Well, a working fusion reactor design that can produce energy at 1/8 the cost of conventional methods means climate change is mostly a solved problem. Reactors of this type would get built all over the world, very quickly.
 
Well, a working fusion reactor design that can produce energy at 1/8 the cost of conventional methods means climate change is mostly a solved problem. Reactors of this type would get built all over the world, very quickly.
Probably not in regions where climate change deniers and fossil fuel lobbies are very powerful. Here in Australia the fossil fuel lobby has blocked any change despite renewable being cheaper for years.
 
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