Warhammer Fantasy: Remaking the Chaos Gods and Norscans to be less Vanta Black Evil.

[Wheel of time]

Hi Folks, I have been reading this thread recently, Sympathy for the heretic and it got me thinking on Chaos. I have always loved the style of Chaos. It is a faction with metal aesthetics and bloodthirsty champions leading ravenous armies of destruction. Murderously cool, and the philosophy of each God is actually kinda interesting to read. But on the other hand, Chaos is Vanta black. No, that isn't correct. It is Vanta-vanta Black. Vanta Black on black with an extra side of midnight black and a dollop of grimdark black.

Which brings us to the purpose of this thread. Remaking the Chaos Gods. Before anyone pulls out the pitchforks, hear me out. I don't think Chaos should be nice. I like the savagery, I enjoy the barbarism. But, you can have that, and still be more nuanced then canon. Canon is so evil you broke the chart for defining evil. What I like about Chaos is the Daemons, the patronage of the Chaos Gods providing blessings and reality warping miracles. I like the idea of Chaos Marked Champions, I like the idea of Warp-Touched environments, I like the twisted morality for the Gods. I like Daemon Weapons and Armor. I like how dangerous it is. And I like the concept of sacrifice to prove your faith to the Dark Gods.

What I don't like is how baby eating, soul raping, corpse fucking evil they are. You hear often Chaos is not just the negative, it is also the positive. Which I always found a nothingburger statement as it really doesn't change anything as they still act vanta black sinister. Yes I know negative emotions are stronger then positive, but functionally it means Chaos never has those supposed positive aspects reveal themselves. What I propose for a fun project is a Warhammer Fantasy AU, change cannon as much as you want. The goal? make the Chaos Gods less pure concentrated evil. Give them depth to their morality and relationship to their followers. Less world ending horror, and more cruel and violent Pagan Gods with multiple aspects and covenants of worship lubricated by blood sacrifice. We have them in canon be the patron Gods of a Viking culture, the Norscans. So what if they were more like actual Viking Gods? This is all early ideas right now, I don't have a clear thought train.

But to sum up: The goal of this thread is to propose a AU where the Chaos Gods are mutli faceted and complex deities who are still destructive but aren't mindlessly insane. Brutal and merciless, but with enough sympathetic or good about them you could see heroes on their side. Instead of canon line of pick your asshole. They can still raid and pillage, but without the scale of WTF black metal death orgy gone wrong. Extreme, but not vanta black. There is a difference.

If anyone has questions on what I mean. Feel free to ask And before anyone says anything about how Chaos isn't meant to be this or I am not getting the point of Warhammer Fantasy or I should just make a unique setting. Why are you here? Why are you wasting your time coming into a thread which proposes to alter Chaos because I think it would be cool to talk what other interpretations are possible? I am just trying to have fun with the pieces of a cool setting I like. If you don't like? Well I ain't going to be rewriting the official published books and loresplats so no harm done. For those who want to engage with the thread? Have a blast and let's have some fun.

 

[Terra Novan]

Hmm, might want to look into these fanmade WFRP materials on Norsca.

Still a brutal society, but one that is believably functional and not everyone is crazy marauders or one-with-armour warriors.

EDIT: Note that the Norse are actually well-developed and fleshed out compared to the Kurgans and Hungs.

 

[Wheel of time]

Hmm, might want to look into these fanmade WFRP materials on Norsca.

Still a brutal society, but one that is believably functional and not everyone is crazy marauders or one-with-armour warriors.

EDIT: Note that the Norse are actually well-developed and fleshed out compared to the Kurgans and Hungs.

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Thank you. And yeah. I would have an AU where the Chaos Gods tell you to do morally questionable things but you can sorta see a justification. Khorne does have you conquer and murder every other tribe and leave no survivors. But he also gives you the rage and skill to protect your tribe and teach your warriors how to survive. Give and take basically. Do this, get that.

 

[Terra Novan]

As for the other two Chaos tribes:

Kurgan: The name itself is from the Kurgan culture from the Pontic steppe, and there is a Slavic connection too, as the Gospodar was once one of the Kurgan tribes and the Kurgan chiefs are titled Zar. I would say Kurgan would be mainly Turkic-Slavic, but since this is Warhammer there are other influences from many cultures, mostly vaguely barbarous and/or steppe-like (see: Vardek Crom, Tamurkhan).

Hung: The name is clearly derived from the Huns/Xiongnu, and they live east to the Kurgans. Notably, they also live in the northern New World as well, endlessly fighting with the Dark Elves. So a Mongol-North Asian (Siberian)-Manchurian-Inuit.

 

[Comrade Future]

Kurgan: The name itself is from the Kurgan culture from the Pontic steppe, and there is a Slavic connection too, as the Gospodar was once one of the Kurgan tribes and the Kurgan chiefs are titled Zar. I would say Kurgan would be mainly Turkic-Slavic, but since this is Warhammer there are other influences from many cultures, mostly vaguely barbarous and/or steppe-like (see: Vardek Crom, Tamurkhan).

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Some sources speak of Scythian influence, but judging by the art and description, this is just a stereotypical set of barbarians ala Konan. Considering that this is rather a collective name for peoples, most of which can be described as "standard chaos". Hung's are also not too nuanced. I would not "whitewash" the gods of Chaos, but instead I would have worked better for the tribes of the northern wastelands.

 

[Terra Novan]

Some sources speak of Scythian influence, but judging by the art and description, this is just a stereotypical set of barbarians ala Konan. Considering that this is rather a collective name for peoples, most of which can be described as "standard chaos". Hung's are also not too nuanced. I would not "whitewash" the gods of Chaos, but instead I would have worked better for the tribes of the northern wastelands.

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Agreed. I always found the 'Mad Max/Conan the Barbarian' Chaos Warriors very cringey, and would have preferred if they were more like actual RL steppe nomads.

 

[Wheel of time]

Some sources speak of Scythian influence, but judging by the art and description, this is just a stereotypical set of barbarians ala Konan. Considering that this is rather a collective name for peoples, most of which can be described as "standard chaos". Hung's are also not too nuanced. I would not "whitewash" the gods of Chaos, but instead I would have worked better for the tribes of the northern wastelands.

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My thought is playing into the idea of reward and faith Chaos has central to its dynamic with followers. Your tribe will be blessed if you ruin these other ones. My kin/my friends/my important people over the rest of the world or conversely over those weak blooded Old World imperials. It is very possible to have the Chaos God be cruel and malicious and also have positive attributes and virtues which propose ideals anethical to most conventional moral systems.

 

[Terra Novan]

My thought is playing into the idea of reward and faith Chaos has central to its dynamic with followers. Your tribe will be blessed if you ruin these other ones. My kin/my friends/my important people over the rest of the world or conversely over those weak blooded Old World imperials. It is very possible to have the Chaos God be cruel and malicious and also have positive attributes and virtues which proposal ideals anethical to most conventional moral systems.

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About that, this is something from the 40k that you might able to use as inspiration:

[Excerpt: Talon of Horus] Warp mutations aren't random : 40kLore (reddit.com)

You will hear Imperial preachers cry of warp 'corruption'; of 'Chaos' and its random nature. These are falsehoods. There is a malevolence in the Pantheon, a true and sentient malevolence. The existence of such vast and dark emotion defies the notion of any truly random influence. Both cannot be true.

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The empyrean's alterations and flesh-changes are not accidental, indiscriminate mutations. The warp, for all its seething madness, hones its chosen. It reshapes them, siphoning the secrets of their souls and writing those truths upon their mortal flesh. When a pilot melts into the console of his fighter or gunship, it is not on the random curse of bodily horror or some unknowable divine whim. For all the pain he endures, he finds his reflexes and reactions far more attuned, as well as taking enhanced chemical and sensory pleasure in the kills he makes in the void. A warrior's weapons become extensions of his body, reflecting the importance he places upon them in his heart.

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This is the simplest truth of life in the Great Eye. Everyone sees your sins, your secrets and lusts, written plain across your flesh.

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And the warp always has a plan. An infinity of plans. A plan for every soul.

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[Comrade Future]

Agreed. I always found the 'Mad Max/Conan the Barbarian' Chaos Warriors very cringey, and would have preferred if they were more like actual RL steppe nomads.

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The setting breathes kitsch and excessiveness, so this option is logical ... another thing is that the difference between individual regions of empires is much greater than between kurgans and Hung.

My thought is playing into the idea of reward and faith Chaos has central to its dynamic with followers. Your tribe will be blessed if you ruin these other ones. My kin/my friends/my important people over the rest of the world or conversely over those weak blooded Old World imperials. It is very possible to have the Chaos God be cruel and malicious and also have positive attributes and virtues which proposal ideals anethical to most conventional moral systems.

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I don't think it will match the atmosphere of the setting, but it's worth remembering that cults in Norsc have their own specifics. So other peoples may have such.

 

[Terra Novan]

I don't think it will match the atmosphere of the setting, but it's worth remembering that cults in Norsc have their own specifics. So other peoples may have such.

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Hmm, the Ruinous Powers are perfectly capable of keeping the civilization functional enough, so they can inflict malice upon the greater universe.

See: The Sanguinary Worlds from 40k. Functional (if absolutely abominable by our sensibility) civilization completely independent of the IoM, thus making them a far more formidable threat than the regular crazy cultists, and more interesting than the degenerate remnants of Horus' failed rebellion.

 

[Wheel of time]

The setting breathes kitsch and excessiveness, so this option is logical ... another thing is that the difference between individual regions of empires is much greater than between kurgans and Hung.


I don't think it will match the atmosphere of the setting, but it's worth remembering that cults in Norsc have their own specifics. So other peoples may have such.

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The idea for the thread is an AU where Chaos Gods aren't vanta black evil and are complex if still not nice nor gentle. Change setting to fit this as you can. Canon is there to be played with.

On Chaos Warriors. While they shouldn't be representative of entire cultures(Though, having Chaos armor be inscribed with symbols of their tribe and decorated with totems of their people is cool). Chaos Warriors are cool on their own.

 

[Terra Novan]

On Chaos Warriors. While they shouldn't be representative of entire cultures(Though, having Chaos armor be inscribed with symbols of their tribe and decorated with totems of their people is cool). Chaos Warriors are cool on their own.

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Never really liked the Chaos Warriors myself. Felt like discount Chaos Space Marines.

 

[Terra Novan]

Also, make the Ivory Road (Silk Road equivalent) actually work. The existing lore makes me question just how it even remains open, let alone remain profitable.

Ivory Road | Warhammer Wiki | Fandom

It's basically RL Silk Road, except the dangers are exaggerated over 9,000 and without the oasis cities and kingdoms providing refuges for the caravans.

 

[Comrade Future]

It's basically RL Silk Road, except the dangers are exaggerated over 9,000 and without the oasis cities and kingdoms providing refuges for the caravans.

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Well, for that world - danger is the norm. Although the remark that the necessary cities and transshipment points are valid, as are the mercenaries guarding the caravans (it would be ironic if they would be recruited from the same peoples who are constant robbers).

 

[Terra Novan]

Well, for that world - danger is the norm. Although the remark that the necessary cities and transshipment points are valid, as are the mercenaries guarding the caravans (it would be ironic if they would be recruited from the same peoples who are constant robbers).

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Perhaps the surviving Mountains of Mourn Dwarfholds can take up that role?

 

[Comrade Future]

Perhaps the surviving Mountains of Mourn Dwarfholds can take up that role?

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I'm not much of a connoisseur, but possible.

 

[Wheel of time]

.
Well, if we're still trying the reimagine-while-preserving schtick...

Basically, Chaos would be the idea of revering the individual, the personal-emotional, that which is deeply innate to ourselves.

"Believe in yourself and follow your truth!" as opposed to "Thought for the Day: If you cannot speak well of your Master, be silent!"

Now, exactly which emotions and personal inner truths get followed determines what kind of Chaos-worshipper you get.

...

People who were basically decent become, well, weird often enough, but generally not evil. They turn into any of a number of things, based on their own innate preferences and the future they choose for themselves, but whatever they become reflects that. They become what they really were all along, in a manner that reflects their character. If they were beautiful on the inside, they will become beautiful- though perhaps strangely beautiful, an alien beauty- on the outside. If they were ugly on the inside, they become ugly- or strangely, sickly-sweetly repellent- on the outside.

...

People who were already evil become super-evil, throwing aside their restraints. This may be why it's always really fucking disastrous and atrocious when prominent Imperial officials turn to Chaos- because they're usually already pretty rotten and ruthless persons, and the only thing holding them back is the strictures of the Imperium telling them who they can and cannot brutalize and abuse. Remove the restraints of law from someone who's already enough of a sociopath to torture cities to death in the Emperor's name, and you get someone who will turn into a garden-variety Chaos daemon from canon 40k in short order.

So jaded Imperial noblewomen turn into what we in the canon setting call "Slaaneshi daemonettes." Not because that happens to everyone who listens to Slaanesh... but because they were already spoiled princesses who cared only for their own gratification. Giving them Chaos power just means they gratify themselves in stranger ways. If they weren't such horrible people already and had more personal virtues, then even after 'falling' into Chaos, they'd have had the willpower and focus to avoid transforming into cackling exhibitionist hermaphroditic torturers. Assuming, y'know, that's not what they originally would have wanted.

Imperial commissars who fall to chaos turn into daemons of Khorne because, well, they were already sadistic bloodthirsty monsters willing to kill their own side as long as it kept the blood flowing. All that changed is that now they've grown horns and are playing the same game or the opposite team, only maybe with a bit more muscle and guts to go out and do for themselves what they used to coerce others into doing for them.

For every individual bad example, every instance of Chaos gone wrong, the apostles of Chaos can point to the horrible fate that has befallen this warped, empowered, twisted, demented wreck of what was once human, and say "This isn't your fate... This is the future you chose for yourself."

Because Chaos always gives you the future that is the direct, foreseeable extrapolation of your own nature and actions.


Chaos, in this imagining, comes in four flavors.

Faced with the unacceptable...

Tzeentch says "Change it! Be as subtle and as strange as you have to be, to make it not happen."

Khorne says "Break it! Strike it with a blow that would shatter the heavens themselves! Destroy it!"

Nurgle says "Become whatever you must, to endure, to survive this!"

Slaanesh says "Become whatever you dream of being, to transcend, to go beyond this!"

...

And people heed those calls within themselves, embrace those ideas. And they do as those calls say.

They change the world, making it glorious or ghastly, but making it dance to their tune.

They break the world, creating a new one or bringing it all down in rubble and death, but refusing to allow it to advance even one more step in the way it did before their coming.

They resist and overcome their weakness, becoming sources of resilience in the face of misery, or demons striving to drag down everyone else into their own private hells.

They develop and refine their strengths, becoming persons and things of unspeakable beauty, or callous monsters in search of ever higher peaks to ascend

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[Terra Novan]

So basically Objectivism but with some good sides?

 

[Wheel of time]

So basically Objectivism but with some good sides?

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Objectivism states charity is a net bad and pure selfish pursuit is the net good.
The above postulated Chaos can be a road to internal transformation of the soul and flesh. Be the best and most true you. Which can take a infinite number of forms. Good and bad and in between.

 

[Telvos]

I have been waiting for a thread like this... I have IDEAS!

First, as some general setting ideas:

1. Emphasize normality: Incursions are not every Tuesday, and Chaos Daemons generally make for poor eating. The Norscans, Kurgans, and Hung all spend the vast majority of their time worrying about the same things any old-worlder does: finding or growing enough food not to starve, raising families, etc. Your village might occasionally have some young men leave to raid the south, or join the horde of a Chaos Champion, but most come back soon enough, with only a handful swearing themselves more directly to the goals of the Chaos Gods and becoming a warrior or champion. By focusing on the necessities of living, the BS stereotype of a barbarian that does nothing but fight and raid quickly withers, taking a good deal of the more ridiculous edge of Chaos with it.

2. Reduce numbers: Instead of having a cult under every other couch-cushion and the forests thronging with beastmen, make the forces of chaos a rarer, but still dangerous, thing. For beastmen, emphasize that they can only really prosper and grow large in unsettled, primeval lands, with pastures and farmland being too well settled and defended to not inevitably drive what is in its essence a hunter-gatherer tribe out. For cults, emphasize that they can only grow when the state and society retreats: they are a symptom of a societies failures, not an inevitable facet of a society.

Next, moving to the Chaos Gods themselves, I have developed my own "somewhat moral" versions of them, in general, they are

1. Still concerned with their primary interests over anything else, which still makes them dangerous since they are necessarily creatures of imbalance.

2. Primarily act in the world when called upon: this is a big difference. My version of Chaos Gods are fundamentally not overly interested in conquering the world of men for their glory: they wouldn't mind if one of their champions did so, of course, but they aren't openly and actively trying to undermine the world.

Now for the Gods.

Khorne is.... Ok, my version of him is more or less 100% Vhailor from Planescape: Torment: a violent and uncompromising fanatic who hates injustice and won't stop until every last cause and perpetrator of injustice is ended. The problem is that Khorne also despises those too weak to directly fight injustice full bore 100% of the time, considering them enablers, and also has no concept of proportionality, preferring to simply murder everyone who ever committed any sort of wrong. People pray to Khorne when they wish wrongs done to them to be not righted, but avenged, and he happily delivers.

Nurgle is the god of total equanimity, in an almost Buddhist sense. He teaches total and complete surrender to the processes of life, including disease and death, and that only by such surrender can abiding happiness be reached. Needless to say, Nurgle does not have many followers at all, at least under normal times, buts cults to him tend to crop up among the survivors of diseases, famine, and the like. Nurgle offers nothing, he tries to conquer nothing, and he cares for nothing. He simply, like birth, death, and entropy, simply is.

Thats all I have the time for for now, Tzeentch and Slaanesh later.

Edit: now is later.

Tzeentch I keep fairly close to his original incarnation, but with less of a mean streak. Tzeentch is the god of hope and change, whose only real interest is seeing that the world never ends and the game never stops. Tzeentch is willing to lend his ear and aid freely to any and all who ask, and that is the rub. The pauper hoping for a better life will be given just as much aid as a scheming princeling who wants the crown. Nor is Tzeentch content to let things lie, for he abhors stability, and will assist in undermining a just system just as eagerly as a bad one. Tzeentch is the potential for change, both good and bad, and to treat with him successfully is dangerous indeed, and requires the will and skill to channel change, not just be swept up in the tide. Not surprisingly, cults of Tzeentch are very unpopular with any sort of organized government, but rarely particularly hated at the individual level. Exasperating, yes, but everyone excepts the raw need for change sometimes.

Slaanesh is the God of selfish individualism verging on the solipsistic. Few actually worship Slaanesh - she isn't that kind of God - rather she represents, in her unlimited power and drive, the end goal of power that many seek in the warp, a charismatic champion of banishing all limits on oneself other than ones will. Those who have truck with Slaanesh rather bargain with her than worship, as not all desires conflict, and Slaanesh is more than willing to help or trade when it is advantageous to her, or simply on a whim.

In practice, Slaanesh and her 'followers' are evil only insofar as their unrestrained pursuit of their desires conflicts with the world around them: a Slaaneshi whose deepest desire is to garden is rarely going to run into much trouble, the one who wants a wardrobe made out of the inhabitants of Altdorf... Less so. The same is true of the god herself: benign... Until you are at odds.

Given their warp empowered ability to seek their desires, and general Sociopathy, Slaaneshi cultists tend to be hated, but still darkly appealing: no one wants one as their neighbor, but everyone has a dark part of them that finds unlimited power appealing.

 

[Terra Novan]

Another possible fictional inspiration is the Gods of Change from the very old RPG setting Tekumel:

Hrü'ü
Lord Hrü'ü is the supreme principle of Change. He saves the world from the oppression of Stability, helping individuals achieve greatness by overcoming the strictures of social Order. Without Lord Hrü'ü, the world would be stifled by Lord Hnálla's Light and bound in the coils of Lady Avánthe's Cycles of Being. He is freedom because he is Change.
Fanatical worshippers of Lord Hrü'ü see the world as a roiling chaos in which they strive towards goals of their own, knowing that in the end both they and their goals are meaningless. The Order so loved by worshippers of Stability is, for those who worship Lord Hrü'ü, an amusing illusion.

Wurú, Cohort of Hrü'ü
Lord Wurú is the God of Poisons and Darkness; he is the catalyst of Change.
Fanatical worshippers of Wurú tend to use poison and the Priesthood have specially made poisoned daggers.

Vimúhla
Lord Vimúhla is the Lord of Fire, the most active adherent of Change. He seeks the immediate, urgent breaking-down of what is. He is the God of War-to-Overturn-Society, as opposed to Lord Karakán, who is the God of War-to-Establish-Society. His worshippers exist within society quite capably, for it is the God's place to say where and when destruction shall occur, and the place of Humanity to wait in obedience for His Command. To do otherwise, to initiate destruction without the God's Order, is to presume upon Lord Vimúhla who doubtless has a use for the present Society. The current Emperor is an adherent of Vimúhla, and the warlike followers of the Flame Lord are likely to rise in prominence in the coming years.
Fanatical worshippers of the Flame Lord may revel in destruction and pillage, start fires, and glory in unconventional behaviour.

Chiténg, Cohort of Vimúhla
Lord Chiténg pursues destruction for its own sake — the pragmatic, cruel, and vicious Power of the Flame. Lord Chiténg is more oriented toward group action. Fanatical worshippers may be cruel fire-starters who enjoy the infliction of pain.

Ksárul
Lord Ksárul is the God of Secrets. He was imprisoned in the Blue Room after his defeat at the Battle of Dórmoron Plain, and sleeps there still. He aids those who seek knowledge for the sake of secret power, rather than for the general benefit of society. His temple is among the most secretive, with its inner doctrines written in an arcane and complex secret language known only as "The Tongue of the Priests of Ksárul." The true power within Lord Ksárul's temple is rumoured to lie not with the official leaders of the temple, but with the "Inner Temple," a secret coterie who have been inducted into the faith's inner doctrines. The person in the big office with the fine title may have no real power but simply be acting as a front for the real power in the Temple.
A fanatical worshipper will be so secretive that they may never reveal how fanatical they actually are.

Grugánu, Cohort of Ksárul
Lord Grugánu is the God of Sorcery. Where Lord Ksárul's interests are in the many uses of power, Lord Grugánu is primarily interested in the acquisition of magical wisdom. He aids His own and Lord Ksárul's followers in their quests for knowledge and power. Lord Grugánu may provide His special devotees with the understanding of magical devices and assist in the creation of Spells.
A fanatical worshipper will be actively involved in magical research, even if they are not personally capable of casting Spells they will be involved in research or support work.

Sárku
Lord Sárku is the God of the Dead, Protector of Tombs, Lord of Worms. To the Tsolyáni, Lord Sárku is a necessary facet of the cycle of Life and Death. Just as Lady Avánthe rules the round of fertility, growth, and living things, so does Lord Sárku take charge of the mortal remains of those who have passed on. Lord Sárku's temple is secretive, and uses the "Tongue of the Lord of Worms" to conceal its important texts.
Fanatical worshippers will aspire to eternal persistence in undeath and all of the undead are creatures of Lord Sárku, which is why they can be controlled by the Priests of Sárku.

Durritlámish, Cohort of Sárku
Lord Durritlámish oversees the care of the Undead and the Necropolises wherein they reside. His Priesthood is often charged with the protection of the Necropolises, and the Tomb Police are often worshippers of Lord Durritlámish.
A fanatical worshipper will wish to ensure that the dead rest in peace and will be relentless in their pursuit of tomb robbers and defilers.

Dlamélish
Lady Dlamélish is the Lady of Passion. She seeks the existential reality of the Now, Change as it occurs at every moment, and the pleasures and pains of sense perception. She aids those who seek sensual pleasure and immediate gratification, those who engage in Her orgies and those who are hedonistic, selfish, and uncaring of others.
Fanatical worshippers are hardcore hedonists. Some are gorgeous, and some are quite bizarre: dissolute youths, depraved old men, capering legions of muscular brutes who serve at her orgies, etc.

Hriháyal, Cohort of Dlamélish
Lady Hriháyal is even more extreme than Lady Dlamélish, seeking the outer limits of experience. She is the Patroness of the Ancient Mysteries (the Unspeakable Acts), as well as of Gambling.
Fanatical worshippers of Lady Hriháyal look to experience the Physical Now in as many ways and as deeply as they can. They are the ultimate extremists.

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Aren't they fairly similar to the Chaos Undivided, Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, and Slaanesh, hmm?

Tekumel is a setting with very unconventional, non-Western morality and social norms, as you can see. No, don't ask me how to pronounce those names. I tried and I can't.

Khorne is.... Ok, my version of him is more or less 100% Vhailor from Planescape: Torment: a violent and uncompromising fanatic who hates injustice and won't stop until every last cause and perpetrator of injustice is ended. The problem is that Khorne also despises those too weak to directly fight injustice full bore 100% of the time, considering them enablers, and also has no concept of proportionality, preferring to simply murder everyone who ever committed any sort of wrong. People pray to Khorne when they wish wrongs done to them to be not righted, but avenged, and he happily delivers.

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Dunno. I can't equate Khorne with justice. I feel he, as well as other Chaos Gods, either would lend their power to both the just and unjust as long as they meet their value, or their sense of justice would be very unconventional to us.

 

[FractiousDay]

Not sure the premise of this is properly directed, I get you, but this is all established in the lore, especially in the older stuff. The Norscans especially represent a diverse culture with lots of different gods worshipped, some of which are some form of daemon. The gods do indeed have diversity, there's not a khornate canon or a nurgle bible for example, some people are all about bloody rituals and ceremony, others are into the honour and skill aspects. For tzeentch some will be into the hope and not potential stuff, others will like change

I agree these aren't very well portrayed in newer lore toward the End Times but everyone agrees the lore went downhill around that time anyway so that's not surprising.

 

[Eliar]

Not sure the premise of this is properly directed, I get you, but this is all established in the lore, especially in the older stuff. The Norscans especially represent a diverse culture with lots of different gods worshipped, some of which are some form of daemon. The gods do indeed have diversity, there's not a khornate canon or a nurgle bible for example, some people are all about bloody rituals and ceremony, others are into the honour and skill aspects. For tzeentch some will be into the hope and not potential stuff, others will like change

I agree these aren't very well portrayed in newer lore toward the End Times but everyone agrees the lore went downhill around that time anyway so that's not surprising.

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Why bother when you are determined to blow up the setting?

 

[FractiousDay]

Why bother when you are determined to blow up the setting?

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Yea, but also if you have to try and cram in every single race and important character there's only room for plot, not any worldbuilding. Whole races got written off or basically absorbed by other ones, you can't expect nuance like that when you've got to explain all the end times stuff

Comparably there's novels with pretty complex stuff on particular points there's one with the arch lector being a khornate and working with the knights panther to do some big ritual. None of them are very bloody or go about shouting about skulls, the arch lector is even doing some experiments and generally they fit more into a tzeentchian plot than they do the traditional khornate practices. The stuff like that is perfectly established in lore and there's no need to rewrite things, just find the right bits

 

[Wheel of time]

Not sure the premise of this is properly directed, I get you, but this is all established in the lore, especially in the older stuff. The Norscans especially represent a diverse culture with lots of different gods worshipped, some of which are some form of daemon. The gods do indeed have diversity, there's not a khornate canon or a nurgle bible for example, some people are all about bloody rituals and ceremony, others are into the honour and skill aspects. For tzeentch some will be into the hope and not potential stuff, others will like change

I agree these aren't very well portrayed in newer lore toward the End Times but everyone agrees the lore went downhill around that time anyway so that's not surprising.

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This is like saying there is a good Sith in Star Wars. Both 40k and Fantasy say Chaos has good aspects, every once in a while, in a vague way forgotten as we go back to eating out of our flayed baby skull chalices filled with the blood of their weeping mothers. Chaos is Satan. Take the most evil thing, multiply by ten, and go from there. While I like the implications and thought that could come out of a Chaos which wasn't straight evil.

Dunno. I can't equate Khorne with justice. I feel he, as well as other Chaos Gods, either would lend their power to both the just and unjust as long as they meet their value, or their sense of justice would be very unconventional to us.

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Khorne is the God of Wrath. He is the murderous impulse which flowed in the arm of the first kill. But he is also the fury filling the heart of the man or women who would tear apart those who threaten their kin limb from limb. Both in 40k and Fantasy the Blood God is associated with tribal societies and a leading warrior caste. He is connected to basic close knit social structures. Of course that isn't everything, but he is a God of Chaos, and the whole reason of doing this is they are so vast you can draw a variety of interpretations out of them besides Raaa evil. Such as Khorne being hateful of deceit and a god of anger and honor actually being a God of a cruel and ruthless justice.

Nurgle is the god of total equanimity, in an almost Buddhist sense. He teaches total and complete surrender to the processes of life, including disease and death, and that only by such surrender can abiding happiness be reached. Needless to say, Nurgle does not have many followers at all, at least under normal times, buts cults to him tend to crop up among the survivors of diseases, famine, and the like. Nurgle offers nothing, he tries to conquer nothing, and he cares for nothing. He simply, like birth, death, and entropy, simply is.

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I really like the idea of Nurgle Buddha. I always found the idea of living in symbosis with your diseases to be a fascinating concept to explore. Accepting the rot into you creating a new form of being.

Tzeentch I keep fairly close to his original incarnation, but with less of a mean streak. Tzeentch is the god of hope and change, whose only real interest is seeing that the world never ends and the game never stops. Tzeentch is willing to lend his ear and aid freely to any and all who ask, and that is the rub. The pauper hoping for a better life will be given just as much aid as a scheming princeling who wants the crown. Nor is Tzeentch content to let things lie, for he abhors stability, and will assist in undermining a just system just as eagerly as a bad one. Tzeentch is the potential for change, both good and bad, and to treat with him successfully is dangerous indeed, and requires the will and skill to channel change, not just be swept up in the tide. Not surprisingly, cults of Tzeentch are very unpopular with any sort of organized government, but rarely particularly hated at the individual level. Exasperating, yes, but everyone excepts the raw need for change sometimes.

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Make him a trickster and shapeshifting sorcerer offering the light of endless possibility

These are all great. I think the key to this is giving the Gods enough virtue you can root for them while with the example of Khorne making them so extreme in those virtues they are destructive in other respects. The Gods of Chaos do not jive with many ideas of social order.