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[X] Doppelganger to look like one of the armored Skaven, then try and assassinate the Goblin Leader. Be seen as a Skaven assassin, then flee into the shadows.
-[X] After taking the shot, break line of sight and use Doppleganger to mimic a goblin and Take No Heed.
 
Again, these guys are business dealers, not true important leaders. They are not worth the risk to ourselves, the potential delay, the likely loss of information. There will be more opportunities for slash and dash in these mountains.
 
[X] Doppelganger to look like one of the armored Skaven, then try and assassinate the Goblin Leader. Be seen as a Skaven assassin, then flee into the shadows.
-[X] After taking the shot, break line of sight and use Doppleganger to mimic a goblin and Take No Heed.
Putting the subvote here seems strictly worse to me than not having the subvote. The main vote already not only handles the question of "how do you escape", it gives a specific method for doing so; "flee into the shadows", which is to say, become invisible and insubstantial and thus get away. The subvote not only provides a less effective method for escaping- because breaking line of sight when the entire cavern is looking our way thanks to the gunfire will be difficult at best when compared to simply being in a shadowed location, and people can save against Take No Heed while they can't defeat actual invisibility- but it also provides one that directly conflicts with the main vote because Mathilde can't simultaneously escape via two different methods.

Even worse, actual skaven get teleportation and shadow nonsense as part of their magic. The general idea "a skaven used a pistol to assassinate the goblin and then disappeared into the shadows via magic" is entirely plausible to someone who knows exactly how skaven work. The general idea "a skaven used a pistol to assassinate the goblin and then magically turned into a goblin and blended into the crowd" is far less plausible, because magical disguises as other races are not part of the standard skaven assassin playbook. This means that the subvote is specifying the use of capabilities which, should we be seen using them, will reveal more about who we are than the main vote does.

If someone can explain how the subvote is reasonable and actually improves the vote, please do. Failing that, it is not only unnecessary micromanagement, it is actively counterproductive micromanagement, and no one should be voting for it.
 
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[X] Attempt to interfere with the Hall of the Moon...
-[X] By freeing the Orc prisoners.

I feel like letting the orks out will cause more chaos than killing the goblin and pinning it on the Skaven
 
[X] Doppelganger to look like one of the armored Skaven, then try and assassinate the Goblin Leader. Be seen as a Skaven assassin, then flee into the shadows.
 
[X] Attempt to interfere with the Hall of the Moon...
-[X] By freeing the Orc prisoners.
[X] You've scouted this area, now...
-[X] To the Chiselwards, an enormous warren of tunnels that could house any number of horrors.
[X] You've scouted this area, now...
-[X] To the Temple of Grungni, to check if the holy place remains undesecrated.
 
Again, these guys are business dealers, not true important leaders. They are not worth the risk to ourselves, the potential delay, the likely loss of information. There will be more opportunities for slash and dash in these mountains.
They are people that our army is going to have to fight through in a few hours. Getting a bunch killed and leaving the rest tired will reduce dwarf casualties and the time needed for us to secure this section of the Hold.
Are they important in the grand scheme of things? No.
Are they important for this assault? Yes.

The personal threat is negligible. Even if we didn't have plenty of ways to escape we are quite capable of murder-blending our way out. The delay of having to do so would be annoying but the risk is justified by the benefit of weakening the defences.
 
Again, these guys are business dealers, not true important leaders. They are not worth the risk to ourselves, the potential delay, the likely loss of information. There will be more opportunities for slash and dash in these mountains.
Per the update:
Greenskins are incredibly simple creatures in many ways, and when you start to look for whoever would be in charge here, you need look no further than the platform that would give the best vantage point for hurling abuse and projectiles upon the slaves below. Upon it are two creatures, equally hideous but in very different ways. On one side, the apparent leader of the Night Goblins
Mathilde's assessment of the situation is that this is the leader. Please explain why you think her assessment is faulty.
 
[X] Attempt to interfere with the Hall of the Moon...
-[X] By freeing the Orc prisoners.

I feel like letting the orks out will cause more chaos than killing the goblin and pinning it on the Skaven
The default plan here is just to drop some ladders into the pit. It seems both moderately dangerous to get that close and fairly unlikely to be all that effective.

The advantage of the assassination plan is it's simplicity. Mathilde simply needs to prepare her spells to keep her hidden, many of which she's probably already got on her since she's sneaking about (Doppelganger, Shadowcloak, Take No Heed, Substance of Shadow). Then the plan's implementation is as simple as can be.

Step 1: Shoot the goblin
Step 2: Escape
 
Again, these guys are business dealers, not true important leaders
I'm not sure the distinction exists. Human society has concepts like "you can't just kill someone to take their stuff", not goblin or skaven one. Anyone who doesn't have personal strength and cunning to back up their wealth is going to end up dead in short order, and anyone does have them is going to be a leader. Neither of them is the leader of the entire hold or anything, but they are leaders nevertheless.
 
[X] Attempt to interfere with the Hall of the Moon...
-[X] By freeing the Orc prisoners.

[X] You've scouted this area, now...
-[X] To the Chiselwards, an enormous warren of tunnels that could house any number of horrors.
 
[X] You've scouted this area, now...
-[X] To the Temple of Grungni, to check if the holy place remains undesecrated.
 
Are people actually arguing that these guys are merchants?

Yup. People are actually arguing that. And technically they are. It's just that these folk aren't Empire. Their merchants have to have actual authority, usually taken for themselves, sometimes, rarely, given from another, bigger boss.

Yes they are merchants. Yes, the Skaven probably isn't a Skaven overall Lord, or a member of the Circle of Thirteen. But guess what? Skaven leaders are even more important than human or goblin ones, because of how rare they are with all the constant, unending backstabbing. If you remove one, the backstabbing and killing that ensues will kill more rats than the battle itself. And for the Rat to be fat, he's been in a leader position for a while. Leaders that stay alive among Skaven are even more valuable targets.

In WHFB terms, the Skaven is most likely a Packmaster or a Master Moulder, a Champion unit like Mathilde would be as a Magister, even if her actual magic gear is Wizard Lord level.

As for the goblin, their hierarchy is literally authority equals ass-kicking/cunning. He's probably a Night Goblin Boss, or a Night Goblin Big Boss. In theory he could be some rare variant of a Night Goblin Fanatic Boss, but I doubt it. Those are crazy.

If he's actually the Goblin Warboss, we probably won't be able to kill him, but pissing him off might work just as well. And if he is a Warboss, and we do kill him, expect the defenses of this place to suffer. A lot. IE killing a warboss nets you Victory Points in WHFB. But I doubt he's the Warboss. That would be really, really unlucky for the Goblins, to have their Warboss assassinated before the fight starts. If he's the Warboss, even a gunshot wound to the head might not kill him, and that's without going into all the magic items he would have on him and how they might interfere with killing him. .....

This might actually be the warboss, and we just can't see all his magic stuff because of the damn warpstone teeth, if those aren't a magic item themselves. Hell, they protect him from direct fire spells, don't they? They might count as a Magic Resistance item, or something.

In conclusion, I get people not wanting to risk it. But don't tell me the target isn't an important one. Skaven or Goblin. Or that causing them to think "betrayal!" which is always close to the minds of Goblins and especially Skaven, isn't a goal worthy of risking one's life.

If we manage to start a fight here, we'll inflict as much damage as a full on Battle Spell would on the field. On both sides. That's the comparative risk/reward scenario. Would you cast a Battle Spell on the field if it could kill a Score Stormvermin, a bunch of Giant Rats, and dozens, maybe more Night Goblins? Including possibly a Skaven or Goblin Champion? Maybe both? I would.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by EVA-Saiyajin on Sep 7, 2019 at 2:01 AM, finished with 270 posts and 81 votes.
 
Yup. People are actually arguing that. And technically they are. It's just that these folk aren't Empire. Their merchants have to have actual authority, usually taken for themselves, sometimes, rarely, given from another, bigger boss.

Yes they are merchants. Yes, the Skaven probably isn't a Skaven overall Lord, or a member of the Circle of Thirteen. But guess what? Skaven leaders are even more important than human or goblin ones, because of how rare they are with all the constant, unending backstabbing. If you remove one, the backstabbing and killing that ensues will kill more rats than the battle itself. And for the Rat to be fat, he's been in a leader position for a while. Leaders that stay alive among Skaven are even more valuable targets.

In WHFB terms, the Skaven is most likely a Packmaster or a Master Moulder, a Champion unit like Mathilde would be as a Magister, even if her actual magic gear is Wizard Lord level.

As for the goblin, their hierarchy is literally authority equals ass-kicking/cunning. He's probably a Night Goblin Boss, or a Night Goblin Big Boss. In theory he could be some rare variant of a Night Goblin Fanatic Boss, but I doubt it. Those are crazy.

If he's actually the Goblin Warboss, we probably won't be able to kill him, but pissing him off might work just as well. And if he is a Warboss, and we do kill him, expect the defenses of this place to suffer. A lot. IE killing a warboss nets you Victory Points in WHFB. But I doubt he's the Warboss. That would be really, really unlucky for the Goblins, to have their Warboss assassinated before the fight starts. If he's the Warboss, even a gunshot wound to the head might not kill him, and that's without going into all the magic items he would have on him and how they might interfere with killing him. .....

This might actually be the warboss, and we just can't see all his magic stuff because of the damn warpstone teeth, if those aren't a magic item themselves. Hell, they protect him from direct fire spells, don't they? They might count as a Magic Resistance item, or something.

In conclusion, I get people not wanting to risk it. But don't tell me the target isn't an important one. Skaven or Goblin. Or that causing them to think "betrayal!" which is always close to the minds of Goblins and especially Skaven, isn't a goal worthy of risking one's life.

If we manage to start a fight here, we'll inflict as much damage as a full on Battle Spell would on the field. On both sides. That's the comparative risk/reward scenario. Would you cast a Battle Spell on the field if it could kill a Score Stormvermin, a bunch of Giant Rats, and dozens, maybe more Night Goblins? Including possibly a Skaven or Goblin Champion? Maybe both? I would.
I have been convinced once more
[X] Doppelganger to look like one of the armored Skaven, then try and assassinate the Goblin Leader. Be seen as a Skaven assassin, then flee into the shadows.
 
[X] Doppelganger to look like one of the armored Skaven, then try and assassinate the Goblin Leader. Be seen as a Skaven assassin, then flee into the shadows.
 
Yup. People are actually arguing that. And technically they are. It's just that these folk aren't Empire. Their merchants have to have actual authority, usually taken for themselves, sometimes, rarely, given from another, bigger boss.

Yes they are merchants.
Your explanation seems like a massive reach in attempting to call them merchants. Calling them generic skaven/goblin leaders sounds like it'd be a lot less misleading.
 
For all the people arguing for sensible things like scouting and returning in time: I just can't agree to that. This situation is so charged with violence I can't let it pass. A hinge in any direction can start a veritable civil war right where the goblins don't expect it. It's not negligible - it's a huge morale issue even if it has no direct effect on fighting force.
 
[X] Doppelganger to look like one of the armored Skaven, then try and assassinate the Goblin Leader. Be seen as a Skaven assassin, then flee into the shadows.
 
Voting closed, writing has begun.

Say @BoneyM might I ask from what Mathilde can see roughly how many Goblins and Skaven are in this cavern? I am trying to get an idea of how large this enemy force is.

occasionally ducking out of sight as one of the thousands of Night Goblins present gets too close.

A score of heavily-armoured man-size


@BoneyM will the phrasing "be seen as a Skaven assassin, then flee into the shadows" rather than "be seen fleeing as a Skaven assassin" have any mechanical penalties? As in, will she give up a turn of running/initiative/whatever game mechanic the chase will be implemented with? Is Mathilde going to stand there until they notice her, run immediately and hope it works, or some kind of middle ground?

I like the plan but it won't have my vote if it gives Mathilde the idiot ball.

No, Mathilde will by default minimize danger to herself while still getting the stated result. I might take advantage of ambiguity if the results would be hilarious, but not if they'd jeopardize the mission altogether.

@BoneyM Hey is Gotrek around yet?

While Gotrek is a talented engineer who may very well have come in handy to the Expedition, he's already committed to the upcoming Expedition to Karag Dum.

@BoneyM

Two questions: do Goblins Fear Elves as they do in TT?

Yes, but Mathilde doesn't know this.

And is it possible in any way to stack fear effects, if not in TT mode? Like using the Torc along with Dread Aspect?

No, it's only the positive effects on allies that prevent the Torc from being redundant.
 
So we're going to be doing something of extremely dubious value while ignoring the actual job we volunteered for.
 
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