Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
The Cathayan conception of Divine just refers to High and Dark magic, it doesn't include what the Old World considers Divine.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- MS, USA
Uh... So? I didn't say you would be, I said the idea of using Ulgu to manipulate the other 7 winds of magic, more commonly known as 'tongs' in this thread, came about because of the thread learning about how Shyish is used to manipulate Dhar in Necromancy. I did so in response and in support of this comment:
Which your comment seems to be defending, even though I was commenting in support off it. So... I'm confused.
Edit: And just so we are clear, if I misunderstood you or I'm wrong about the origin of the 'tongs' idea, or whatever, feel free to tell me.
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- Location
- Aotearoa
We've already sent the colleges some of our random acquisitions- years ago- for which we are still awaiting someone to bother to figure out the worth of, catalogue, pass to someone (anyone?) interested in it and get back to us with a 'favour tally'...
(See 'Lustrian' eggs, Moulder vats and sundry other non-item pending-favour entries).
Is there any reason to think this Cathayan artifact would be any different?
(See 'Lustrian' eggs, Moulder vats and sundry other non-item pending-favour entries).
Is there any reason to think this Cathayan artifact would be any different?
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- Location
- Toronto, Ontario(occasionally)
[] Send it to the Colleges as a potentially useful trinket
Not entirely satisfied with this. It could be really useful against enemies like the greenskins and the beastmen, who mix specific subtypes of magic(plants, beasts, waaagh) with aid from their gods.
But not really to us personally.
Maybe gift it to the count of Averland? Or whoever is having beastman troubles? But that'll never win a vote.
Edit:
Ah whatever might as well change my vote.
[X] Keep it in case it comes in useful later
Not entirely satisfied with this. It could be really useful against enemies like the greenskins and the beastmen, who mix specific subtypes of magic(plants, beasts, waaagh) with aid from their gods.
But not really to us personally.
Maybe gift it to the count of Averland? Or whoever is having beastman troubles? But that'll never win a vote.
Edit:
Ah whatever might as well change my vote.
[X] Keep it in case it comes in useful later
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Tongs have no insanity risk.
They instead have an inflated miscast risk because of the convoluted process
E: To clarify, the Libris Mortis footnote was with regards to the necromancer being safe from direct mental warping from Dhar, by using Shyish as a proxy, but their lack of protection from ambient Dhar means that its still a bad idea.
Its also still a bad idea for Mathilde because her protection from Dhar is potentially based on Valaya's continued approval, if Gazul's rune has Gazul himself doing the security check for operations, Valaya's rune may not be usable if we actually go down the dark side.
It is in no way support for working with Dhar, even through tongs or other intermediaries. I just like accuracy with why its a bad idea.
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NeonLights
Formerly Reliable_2IC
- Location
- In shambles
We know what it does and no action needs to be taken to put it to use. All the colleges need to do is give it to a general facing greenskins and they're set.
- Location
- Singapore
TLDR: I don't see what's exactly the issue with too much college favors, since there are useful mechanics out there that do require College Favor upkeep per turn, but we might do well to take in the right circumstances. It's called a Favor economy for a reason - favor invested leads to favor earned which in turn is reinvested or circulated as expenditure. Without circulation through expenditure or investment, the Favor economy both grounds to a halt, and also doesn't grow further.
Given the fact we have a huge amount of favor sitting around and it's just going to grow with sending the Gems to the Colleges likely to win, we can probably very easily afford the 1GC upkeep of a Perpetual Master-Handler to help with our EIC Intelligence/Accountability actions, since bad rolls probably hurt our goals for the EIC, which we then have to roll again to try to fix. Plus, narratively speaking, it reflects that Mathilde has reached the point as a Grey Magister that she is starting to build a trusted retinue to help her. Plus, Mathilde is used to controlling Intelligence networks through a Julia-like deputy. Plus, the earlier we start, the sooner possibilities such as having someone to maintain and manage the network for us on our behalf once we are done building it to our satisfaction can happen.
13 College Favors this turn basically pay for 13 turns of upkeep for a Perpetual Intelligence deputy/manager (albiet one with no managerial experience, whose other relevant work experiences depends on the Gacha - we could get a very experienced operative or auditor looking to make the early-mid career jump to management on one hand, and a green as grass utterly fresh zero work experience Perpetual on the lowest end), an second IC that we know is extremely unlikely to disrupt the company culture we choose to reinforce for the EIC because the Grey College would not have given him his rank unless they were sufficiently satisfied of his integrity not to misuse Ulgu for profit. To put things into perspective, we are, I believe on our eight turn after the Expedition. Given our huge backlog and the unlikelihood, we run out of things to research, plus our Intelligence network can be used to aquire new research material if we somehow ever get through our backlog (which the Grey College won't object if they don't breach Article 9, since we are an Academic), 1GC probably is a really reasonable upkeep cost for Mathilde to avail herself of the manpower advantages that the Grey College offers considering the Room of Serenity almost certainly will yield a certain definite Favor income per turn.
A solution already exist for College Favor bloat, and indeed, I find it a very natural solution, since one would expect more experienced Magisters with large favor reserves and income to likely spend part of their income to upkeep a retinue of specialists from their Colleges, depending on their needs, of which information networks probably are the most common for Grey Magisters because of the nature of their work. I would say that availing ourselves of those opportunities really emphasizes the stature of Mathilde as a Grey Magister narratively, which so far has been limited to certain social sequences because Mathilde spends most of her time outside the College political thunderdome in Altdorf.
Given the fact we have a huge amount of favor sitting around and it's just going to grow with sending the Gems to the Colleges likely to win, we can probably very easily afford the 1GC upkeep of a Perpetual Master-Handler to help with our EIC Intelligence/Accountability actions, since bad rolls probably hurt our goals for the EIC, which we then have to roll again to try to fix. Plus, narratively speaking, it reflects that Mathilde has reached the point as a Grey Magister that she is starting to build a trusted retinue to help her. Plus, Mathilde is used to controlling Intelligence networks through a Julia-like deputy. Plus, the earlier we start, the sooner possibilities such as having someone to maintain and manage the network for us on our behalf once we are done building it to our satisfaction can happen.
13 College Favors this turn basically pay for 13 turns of upkeep for a Perpetual Intelligence deputy/manager (albiet one with no managerial experience, whose other relevant work experiences depends on the Gacha - we could get a very experienced operative or auditor looking to make the early-mid career jump to management on one hand, and a green as grass utterly fresh zero work experience Perpetual on the lowest end), an second IC that we know is extremely unlikely to disrupt the company culture we choose to reinforce for the EIC because the Grey College would not have given him his rank unless they were sufficiently satisfied of his integrity not to misuse Ulgu for profit. To put things into perspective, we are, I believe on our eight turn after the Expedition. Given our huge backlog and the unlikelihood, we run out of things to research, plus our Intelligence network can be used to aquire new research material if we somehow ever get through our backlog (which the Grey College won't object if they don't breach Article 9, since we are an Academic), 1GC probably is a really reasonable upkeep cost for Mathilde to avail herself of the manpower advantages that the Grey College offers considering the Room of Serenity almost certainly will yield a certain definite Favor income per turn.
A solution already exist for College Favor bloat, and indeed, I find it a very natural solution, since one would expect more experienced Magisters with large favor reserves and income to likely spend part of their income to upkeep a retinue of specialists from their Colleges, depending on their needs, of which information networks probably are the most common for Grey Magisters because of the nature of their work. I would say that availing ourselves of those opportunities really emphasizes the stature of Mathilde as a Grey Magister narratively, which so far has been limited to certain social sequences because Mathilde spends most of her time outside the College political thunderdome in Altdorf.
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- Location
- va
[X] Send it to the Colleges as a potentially useful trinket
- Location
- Brazil
In this case you should stop spreading that misinformation about the belt. The chance that the Belt would need Valaya continuous aproval is nill, people speculated otherwise due to confusing diferent runes named after her and maybe also a desire to keep saying the belt won't work the way we were told it does.
But at the end of the day, Valaya isn't checking on our belt, that would go against everything we know about how runes work, we don't have an ancestor rune on our belt so we should stop worrying our belt works like an ancestor rune because runes are very specific about how they work.
chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
I agree with this general sentiment. Runes are cool, but there is nothing to indicate that they wouldn't work if they ever got into the hands of bad people, and their entire draw, from the dwarven mindset, is that they do not hold with conceptual nonsense. It's only when you start mixing them with the winds that things get weird.
This is the most authoritative statement we have on the possibilities IIRC.
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chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
BoneyM also agreed that we were a vampire, when presented with the (admittedly compelling) chain of logic. 'Speculation implies' doesn't mean much when the question is if the speculation is true, and Boney has been pretty consistent about not telling us things we wouldn't actually know.
- Location
- Brazil
And the key word on that statement is speculation, because that what the thread was speculating, meaning there isn't much authority there that I can see.
This is basicaly a circular argument were you state that the speculation should be rigth because that was what we were speculating.
The problem is that the speculatar were forgetting there were multiple runes named after Valaya and that cause and effect says the idea that a mechanism that calls upon an ancestor god that predates the concept of ancestor gods makes no sense.
I'm not claiming it's certainly right. I chose the words I did for a reason. What I am saying is the circumstances appear to me far more nebulous than your definitive refusal of the possibility.
chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
Nebulous is all we have, but Runes just straight up not working that way in pretty much any other circumstance seems pretty compelling.
Again, recall:
EternalObserver
eYe Gaze baCk
- Location
- The Void
[X] Send it to the Colleges as a potentially useful trinket
- Location
- Reno
- Pronouns
- They/Them
[X] Send it to the Colleges as a potentially useful trinket
Hence the exact phrasing. There is a possibility, not a certainty, but if Kragg considers Gazul's scrutiny sufficient security...well putting it to the test may be unwise.
At least, if we go full Dhar crazy.
We've played with Dhar a fair bit by now that motivation and purpose suggests we're cool for now.
- Location
- Brazil
Okay them let try to clarify why the possibility makes no sense.
Interrupt me if there is anything you don't undertand
First Runes fundamentaly always work as designed to work every time no matter what, we know this because that is pretty much their defining feature and there is a lot of orcs and skaven with loted runework walking around.
Second the timeline goes that first there was Valaya who created a rune to protect dwarfdon from chaos and put it on the door of every hold, that is the Rune of Valaya we have in our belt.
Some time later came Gazul, he stablished the Ancestor cult and dicovered the ancestor runes of Grugni, Valaya, Grimnir and himself, might runes that call upon the power of the ancestor gods, that is the kind of rune we put on the tower.
Thus my believe that the statement a rune discovered before the concept of ancestor gods was a thing would work the same way as the runes specificaly made to call upon ancestor gods makes no sense base on what we know of runes. And so far I can't remenber any argument for why it would make sense beyond both runes being named after the same entity for diferent reasons .
- Location
- Brazil
It's because people have trouble understanding the cost to phenomenal power through LM + Belt (+Tongs) isn't mechanical. It comes to and from those around us.
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Why do you think that rune's effects can't be tied to Valaya personally and can be revoked by her? She wasn't an ancestor goddess back then (debatable but whatever), she still was Valaya and very powerful personally.