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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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chocolote12 said:
Well, more than one of our Masteries are fiendishly complex, so doing them all at the same time sounds like the sort of thing that would qualify, yes. The main benefit of battle magic is that it doesn't have any longer a windup time than normal magic; a minute or two of buffing versus turning around to face an assassin as the perfect monster, pretty much.
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I thought the definition of battle magic was magic that involves large scales. Lots of targets, huge amounts of energy, that sort of thing. Magic with one target that is merely very complicated sounds more like a normal but high level spell.
 
TaliesinSkye said:
I thought the definition of battle magic was magic that involves large scales. Lots of targets, huge amounts of energy, that sort of thing. Magic with one target that is merely very complicated sounds more like a normal but high level spell.
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One of the Ulgu Battle Magic spells summons a shadowy Dragon or Pegasus to move a character from one part of the battle field to another, basically a superfast Shadowsteed.

BoneyM said:
U / Steed of Shadows: Not to be confused with Shadowsteed, an insubstantial pegasus or drake appears under an ally within short range and carries them across the battlefield at incredible speed.
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Its basically just a more complex Shadowsteed.
 
TaliesinSkye said:
I thought the definition of battle magic was magic that involves large scales. Lots of targets, huge amounts of energy, that sort of thing. Magic with one target that is merely very complicated sounds more like a normal but high level spell.
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Well the multi-mastery spell would take a lot of energy, and considering its sheer power would probably more than count as a battle magic spell. On the other hand, you're right in that it's not really the sort of thing somebody pulls against a single opponent. Hell, half of the effects would be relatively useless in that case.
 
TaliesinSkye said:
I thought the definition of battle magic was magic that involves large scales. Lots of targets, huge amounts of energy, that sort of thing. Magic with one target that is merely very complicated sounds more like a normal but high level spell.
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Not necessarily.

BoneyM said:
U / Steed of Shadows: Not to be confused with Shadowsteed, an insubstantial pegasus or drake appears under an ally within short range and carries them across the battlefield at incredible speed.
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Only a single ally for this spell. Battle magic is magic that involves a tremendous amount of magic expressed with incredible skill.
 
BungieONI said:
One of the Ulgu Battle Magic spells summons a shadowy Dragon or Pegasus to move a character from one part of the battle field to another, basically a superfast Shadowsteed.


Its basically just a more complex Shadowsteed.
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Sounds like something classified as battle magic purely because of battlefield utility rather than any inherent reason. Unless maybe accomplishing flight just requires as much energy as blowing up an enemy formation with an attack spell or something, but the math there doesn't seem like it adds up.
 
TaliesinSkye said:
I thought the definition of battle magic was magic that involves large scales. Lots of targets, huge amounts of energy, that sort of thing. Magic with one target that is merely very complicated sounds more like a normal but high level spell.
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Battle Magic is Battle Magic because you get enough of a wind together that its fundamental nature changes back into something more primal, not because of what you use it for, except maybe colloquially, if I understand the distinction correctly.

We can fit Smoke and Mirrors into a normally Fiendishly complex spell and it's not Battle Magic (level) then, but it is if we cast it on its own, and the distinction is that if we try to cast it on its own Ulgu tries its best to turn our guts into snakes or something.
 
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TaliesinSkye said:
Sounds like something classified as battle magic purely because of battlefield utility rather than any inherent reason. Unless maybe accomplishing flight just requires as much energy as blowing up an enemy formation with an attack spell or something, but the math there doesn't seem like it adds up.
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For Ulgu that is pretty much the case yes, it takes a stonking amount of energy. Battle Magic is also classified the way it is because it is never safe to cast barring one exception that we know of: Melkoth can cast Melkoth's Mystifying Miasma casually and walk away laughing apparently, which is probably a combination of him creating it and having oodles and oodles of traits for casting it specifically.
 
TaliesinSkye said:
Sounds like something classified as battle magic purely because of battlefield utility rather than any inherent reason. Unless maybe accomplishing flight just requires as much energy as blowing up an enemy formation with an attack spell or something, but the math there doesn't seem like it adds up.
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It's battle magic because: A) it's impossible to cast safely and B) it's useful on a battlefield.

Technically there could be magic that fits A but not B, but no-one cares to invent any because why take the chance with stuff like that - what non-battle purpose is worth the risk?
 
TaliesinSkye said:
Sounds like something classified as battle magic purely because of battlefield utility rather than any inherent reason. Unless maybe accomplishing flight just requires as much energy as blowing up an enemy formation with an attack spell or something, but the math there doesn't seem like it adds up.
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It's not a question of maths. It has the same miscast chance of any Battle Magic spell, so it's a Battle Magic spell.
 
Uh, hey, I just noticed this:
He's yet to form much of an opinion of you as a person, but he definitely approves of you as a symbol of iconoclastic progress.
On Gotri's sheet. Is that new?
 
BungieONI said:
For Ulgu that is pretty much the case yes, it takes a stonking amount of energy. Battle Magic is also classified the way it is because it is never safe to cast barring one exception that we know of: Melkoth can cast Melkoth's Mystifying Miasma casually and walk away laughing apparently, which is probably a combination of him creating it and having oodles and oodles of traits for casting it specifically.
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I suspect he has a scaled-all-the-way-down version that's useful for nothing besides messing with people.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
It's not a question of maths. It has the same miscast chance of any Battle Magic spell, so it's a Battle Magic spell.
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That's like saying 'it's battle magic because it's got battle magic mechanics'. It doesn't really tell us why something is or isn't battle magic.

Here's what I mean by the math not adding up. If wind is being used as a form of energy, the amount of wind needed to do something should correspond to the energy output of that something.

If we consider fire spells, it should take a whole lot less wind to boil a cup of water than it does to create a huge fireball, because the huge fireball spell requires far more energy input to match its energy output.

Most battle spells seem to do big, energetic things, or less energetic things over and over again to many targets in a way that the energy requirements and complexity would add up. Invisibility on one person is a regular spell, invisibility on 40 people would be a battle spell.

The force required to lift someone into the air and move them less than a mile isn't really all that much compared to the scale of most of the stuff that battle magic seems to do. That's what makes me think that a writer put that spell on the battle magic list because it has a battlefield use and so they thought 'oh hey, battle magic' and not because it being battle magic makes any sense in the world's physics.

There should probably be plenty of less complicated and energetic spells with battlefield uses that aren't battle spells, and plenty of 'battle spells' that have nothing to do with warfare.
 
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tryingtobewitty said:
I suspect he has a scaled-all-the-way-down version that's useful for nothing besides messing with people.
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On that note I also suspect that his "I invented and cast a spell so no-one could remember my age" is just covering up the fact that he miscast and got an arcane mark.


TaliesinSkye said:
That's like saying 'it's battle magic because it's got battle magic mechanics'. It doesn't really tell us why something is or isn't battle magic.

Here's what I mean by the math not adding up. If wind is being used as a form of energy, the amount of wind needed to do something should correspond to the energy output of that something.
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And that's where you've gone wrong. Wind isn't being used as a form of energy in the physics sense. There simply is no conservation of energy in Warhammer once the warp gets involved.
 
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TaliesinSkye said:
That's like saying 'it's battle magic because it's got battle magic mechanics'. It doesn't really tell us why something is or isn't battle magic.

Here's what I mean by the math not adding up. If wind is being used as a form of energy, the amount of wind needed to do something should correspond to the energy output of that something.

If we consider fire spells, it should take a whole lot less wind to boil a cup of water than it does to create a huge fireball, because the huge fireball spell requires far more energy input to match its energy output.

Most battle spells seem to do big, energetic things, or less energetic things over and over again to many targets in a way that the energy requirements and complexity would add up. Invisibility on one person is a regular spell, invisibility on 40 people would be a battle spell.

The force required to lift someone into the air and move them less than a mile isn't really all that much compared to the scale of most of the stuff that battle magic seems to do. That's what makes me think that a writer put that spell on the battle magic list because it has a battlefield use and so they thought 'oh hey, battle magic' and not because it being battle magic makes any sense in the world's physics.
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There is another feature of Wind magic which alters this calculus however: Certain winds are better for certain tasks over others. Chamon is utterly terrible at dealing with animals, to the point they have to build their familiars ala clockwork dogs. Ulgu can fly but it takes a lot of Ulgu to achieve that effect.

Especially compared to Azyr, the Celestial Wind, which has this spell at Moderately Complicated.
BoneyM said:
Wings of Heaven: You can fly for several minutes
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E: Also what's being said about energy and its conservation not really applying in Warhammer Magic.
 
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TaliesinSkye said:
That's like saying 'it's battle magic because it's got battle magic mechanics'. It doesn't really tell us why something is or isn't battle magic.

Here's what I mean by the math not adding up. If wind is being used as a form of energy, the amount of wind needed to do something should correspond to the energy output of that something.

If we consider fire spells, it should take a whole lot less wind to boil a cup of water than it does to create a huge fireball, because the huge fireball spell requires far more energy input to match its energy output.

Most battle spells seem to do big, energetic things, or less energetic things over and over again to many targets in a way that the energy requirements and complexity would add up. Invisibility on one person is a regular spell, invisibility on 40 people would be a battle spell.

The force required to lift someone into the air and move them less than a mile isn't really all that much compared to the scale of most of the stuff that battle magic seems to do. That's what makes me think that a writer put that spell on the battle magic list because it has a battlefield use and so they thought 'oh hey, battle magic' and not because it being battle magic makes any sense in the world's physics.

There should probably be plenty of less complicated and energetic spells with battlefield uses that aren't battle spells, and plenty of 'battle spells' that have nothing to do with warfare.
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That is not at all how magic works in this setting. See: us being able to cast Burning Shadows on a rock or the Citadel just as easily. It's a conceptual system.
 
TaliesinSkye said:
That's like saying 'it's battle magic because it's got battle magic mechanics'. It doesn't really tell us why something is or isn't battle magic.

Here's what I mean by the math not adding up. If wind is being used as a form of energy, the amount of wind needed to do something should correspond to the energy output of that something.

If we consider fire spells, it should take a whole lot less wind to boil a cup of water than it does to create a huge fireball, because the huge fireball spell requires far more energy input to match its energy output.

Most battle spells seem to do big, energetic things, or less energetic things over and over again to many targets in a way that the energy requirements and complexity would add up. Invisibility on one person is a regular spell, invisibility on 40 people would be a battle spell.

The force required to lift someone into the air and move them less than a mile isn't really all that much compared to the scale of most of the stuff that battle magic seems to do. That's what makes me think that a writer put that spell on the battle magic list because it has a battlefield use and so they thought 'oh hey, battle magic' and not because it being battle magic makes any sense in the world's physics.
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Well, the dragon version of the spell is definitely enough to be worth Battle Magic--unless Wyvern just means a really small Dragon--but you're right in terms of the whole Pegasus part. Honestly, I'm not sure why they didn't just split that whole thing up inot three spell: Shadowsteed, a middling spell for the pegasus, and then the actual Steed of Shadows spell which is a giant shadow dragon.
 
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