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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Garlak said:
Ah, "A Quiet Drink" is no longer wedged in at the bottom. It's between 5 and 6 now. (And it had had one of those "..." dividing lines separating it, too.)

It is however in the wrong spot page-number-wise; it should be in between Part 4 and Part 5.
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Yes yes :V already fixed. That was a reading comp derp on my part.

E: Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Its not doing what its supposed to.
 
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HeWhoAdds said:
So the solution to the Dwarven growth problem is to surround Karak Eight Peaks with Humans, which means the person who really needs to start fucking to set an example for the others is... *checks notes* ... Mathilde.
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It is true that we are currently getting out-hornied by the dwarfs on the council and therefore have no grounds to lecture them on their species's need to maintain higher than replacement birthrate.
 
BungieONI said:
See here's the thing.

Old information leads to assumptions on doctrine, force placement and supply lines based on things that are out of date. Imagine for a moment that you are a commander in Greenland, about to make a Big Play for power on behalf of yourself in the mess that was the Eastern Front. All your information is a year out of date and you're armed with inferior weapons, excepting sets of specialized super commandos and personal WMDs.

You're going to be making some very suspect assumptions on that information. Enough that I judge it to be worthless, particularly at any level of detail below what we already have.

From the conversation with Algard, we already knew a bit about their major settlements, and frankly since a good chunk of this will be handled by Bretonnians who have been fighting the rats for millennia openly I expect them to have better info than we can get. And they're the ones doing most of the fighting in their lands anyway, so what we do has much less bearing in that direction than otherwise. Mostly limited to Greys mucking about.

Which leads to Queekish. We don't actually know how long it will take, given this is roll based, and so arguments about its length hold little water. We can't even really guess beyond possibly project length, so 2 to 4 turns, one of which we've already done. Might take longer, might take shorter. We don't know and so it shouldn't be used to make assumptions of "war'll be over before we can hand it out" because there is very little solid ground to work with there. Including from the direction of how long the war will be, which we have absolutely no idea about even slightly.

As for the point of a single translator. That's coming about it without considering what I said about a Lexicon. If we hand that off to the Grey College they now have alphabet, syntax and grammar. At that point they can harvest up to date intel directly from captured documents. The entire order benefits in such a scenario and it wouldn't be a single translator.

In terms of his loyalty versus us getting Queekish, its a risk. Its also a risk I want to take because anything else has far lesser strategic ramifications than being able to go "All that stuff you're going to be tripping over and be unable to translate? Translated." Which is another reason to get it as fast as feasible. As it stands Queekish documents have lesser value over tools, sabotage and loot when it comes to the Grey Order because they can't translate them and they have to prioritize by usability when looting or breaking. The faster we get that out, the less documents get lost to being left behind because paper or leather is bulky or destroyed to deny them to the Skaven.
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On the value of the prisoner's intelligence, I would like to bring to your attention that the Patriarch of the Grey Order specifically told us to bring any more interesting intelligence from the Skaven to him. That rather suggests that at least he believes that the strategic intelligence our Skaven has would still be useful.

Again, no one knew they had a civil war. Knowing which groups are likely to get support from where, and who would immediately start fighting if a front opened up between them, is extremely relevant information and not something that having fought the Skaven before would help much with because it has a lot to do with recent internal Skaven politics and feuds—which we are so unaware us that we did not see this war even as it happened.

As for the marginal value in learning Queekish a year sooner or a year later? It exists, it's not trivial, but it's quite a bit smaller than the marginal value of learning Queekish at all (which I still believe will be higher if we have a firmer rapport and he has spent more time out of Skaven society) and it seems like it would still be quite a bit less than having military intelligence for the campaign.
 
Reynal said:
  1. We know the right now the Church of Sigmar has its head inserted up its own ass, that there is higher than normal political tension between a number of the Elector Counts, that the line of succession is at least temporarily secure (although a regent would be required for the next two-ish decades), that Stirland is near totally focused on a campaign on Sylvannia and has recently had the battle wizards sent to help out, that a few towns have been mysteriously depopulated, that a few new trade routes are in the process of being put together that will overturn how goods are moved around the Empire... I could go on, but that is a shitload of information that highlights a number of general weak and strongpoints for the Empire.
  2. A temporary offensive can still cause lasting damage. A temporary offensive that managed to bring down one of the Colleges of Magic or would cause lasting and severe damage to the Empire, for example. While I am also of the opinion that learning Queekish would be a greater overall boost against the Skaven than this particular campaign going a bit better, they are not mutually exclusive and I honestly think that taking the time to let his loyalty fade and get him used to actually volunteering information would increase our total odds of learning Queekish.
  3. He is not an indefinite resource, but his odds of death, escape, or ceasing to cooperate are neither unobservable nor independent of what we do to/with him. Per Mathilde's talk with the head Grey there is no mundane way the Skaven would know about him and he is kept in the middle of a Dwarf fortress, so assassination odds seem quite low. If he was very elderly and reaching death by old age we would probably be aware, either due to his physical deterioration or our rather extensive literature on Skaven. Escape is pretty much nil given that it's outside his specialty, he has no resources, and on top of mundane defenses if he somehow gets out the door he still gets the fake death triggered. Not cooperating is highly dependent on what we try to do with him, and nudging him for info on the Traitor Clans so that we can point others their direction is about the least likely thing to make him dig in his heels and cease cooperating I can think of.
  4. While I agree that given his currently displayed loyalties making him believe it is not strategically important to humans is the most likely approach to have work, it is still not guaranteed success and a failure there would still limit possible angles for getting it going forward. Spending more time removed from Skaven society and building a rapport with Mathilde is, in my mind, only likely to increase the odds of said gambit working. I fail to see why interrogating him about strategic information he knows is somehow supposed to tip him off that what we really want from him is this one personal project we try after that—honestly, not at least lightly squeezing for strategic information he's willing to give seems more likely to make him cotton on to just how much we want to learn Queekish.
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1) We've already gotten his equivalent to that information - the Skaven Civil War. Futhermore, he's not Mathilde who is a super-spy with weirdly good relationships with those in power. Most councillors don't have access to even a fraction of the information we do. This isn't an Eshin Assassin or a Moulder Scientist. He's a captain who was powerless enough that one of his clan superiors could just order him away against his protest. He's at best someone who works for a councilor.
2) They can be mutually exclusive. You have no guarantee that he'll be alive and cooperative. If Queekish is important, get it first. Don't try to have your cake and eat it too.
3) And also per the grey discussion, mundane is a very specific qualifier. It doesn't apply when talking about gods and mages. Both of which the skaven have.
4) Because it reveals that the rest of the empire is launching an offensive against the Under-empire because of what he lets slip.

And with all of this one major argument is that until we get Queekish from him he'll be burning an action every turn. If that's most important, get it and suddenly he becomes much less important as we can replace him if he's uncooperative.
 
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picklepikkl said:
ok i am back from being vulnerable with people with whom i exist in a network of emotional bonds and trust, god it must be awful to be a skaven, I genuinely feel terrible for them.

Eh, feature rather than bug, from my perspective. The problem with promising him his freedom is that eventually we have to put up or shut up. "You will be kept here indefinitely, safe from Eshin assassins as I can make you, free of undue duress and given recreational reading" is a pretty reasonable give.


Thank you for the info, that will be very useful for turnplanning.
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BoneyM said:
It's possible, but adding more moving parts to an ongoing long-term interrogation is always a risk.
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This is our lab rat and we should carefully measure the opportunity cost of working on them vs building a investigative team.
 
Reynal said:
On the value of the prisoner's intelligence, I would like to bring to your attention that the Patriarch of the Grey Order specifically told us to bring any more interesting intelligence from the Skaven to him. That rather suggests that at least he believes that the strategic intelligence our Skaven has would still be useful.

Again, no one knew they had a civil war. Knowing which groups are likely to get support from where, and who would immediately start fighting if a front opened up between them, is extremely relevant information and not something that having fought the Skaven before would help much with because it has a lot to do with recent internal Skaven politics and feuds—which we are so unaware us that we did not see this war even as it happened.

As for the marginal value in learning Queekish a year sooner or a year later? It exists, it's not trivial, but it's quite a bit smaller than the marginal value of learning Queekish at all (which I still believe will be higher if we have a firmer rapport and he has spent more time out of Skaven society) and it seems like it would still be quite a bit less than having military intelligence for the campaign.
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I'm basically operating on the axiom of:

"Old military intel is actively dangerous, and should be handed over, then discarded after a quick skim."

Because going by real history, and examples in Eight Peaks, it very much is. Moulder got splatted on the drop of a hat because they moved wrong and anybody coming into here expecting to fight Moulder is in for some very ugly surprises. Because of this I expect what Algard was asking about was anymore useful intelligence and intel on other topics. Like Queekish.

This is all further adjusted by a further axiom:

"Old military intel from across a continent is detail poor by necessity of the time frame, even with the best intel service on the planet(which the Skaven debatably have)"

So poor detail decayed information holds nothing of worth to me. If we hold that learning Queekish a year earlier has marginal value, at least it still has value.
 
Reynal said:
As for the marginal value in learning Queekish a year sooner or a year later? It exists, it's not trivial, but it's quite a bit smaller than the marginal value of learning Queekish at all (which I still believe will be higher if we have a firmer rapport and he has spent more time out of Skaven society) and it seems like it would still be quite a bit less than having military intelligence for the campaign.
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The problem I have with this is that we have no idea how long we will have the prisoner. Learning Queekish changes the world and this is a great shot at learning it. Since we don't know how long we have the prisoner we need to move quickly to try and get it.
 
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An excerpt from the journals of Soizic d'Karak, a Questing Knight 7
  • Apocrypha
    • An excerpt from the journal of Soizic d'Karak, a Questing Knight-

    Oh dearest journal, that some things change while others stay the same is the oldest and most banal lesson we are 'er taught, but one which lands crushingly every time we are reminded. I write nursing a flagon of dwarven ale, with battle again looming 'or us a few hours hence. Such things remain the same. As for the differences...

    Shall I write of the wild abandon with which celebrations were had last night? Shall I write of the novel heady mix of alcohol and risk and lust in which I indulged for the first time? Yes! For such memories should not be lost. But first let me speak of the woman more respected than any other in this army, whose knowledge and magic were welcomed into the highest councils. Whose skill with a sword, whose armor and steed of shadows both paint her as a Knight of the Grey Wind...

    Dame Mathilde is a Ranaldite!

    That sneaky, skeevy God of liars and thieves! The no-good god of men who forget their place and would murder their betters in their beds, no more reliable or loyal than the dice his two-faced followers roll... And whence the foremost knight of our host, a landed Dame of the county of Stirland, when she stood tall in front of our bachannal? With a wink and crossed fingers and a cheeky grin she announced a night of gambling! What's worse were the dwarves, those longbeards the very image of honesty and propriety, nodding along next to her! I could not have felt such shock more clearly if a Grail Knight were to eat a babe before my very eyes.

    Dear diary, I know I wrote of wishing to indulge desires previously forbidden, but to be seated suddenly in a Ranaldian gambling hall- temptation delivered in the form of silver coin by a woman who I admit (though only to you!) has already half-captured my dreams- not three hours later was sorely testing.

    ...Lady forgive me but I lined up for my share of tokens with the rest.

    And Ranald, well, I must have mightily amused him that night! For he saw fit to bless me. I know not whether to laugh or cry.

    ...

    You know me well, dearest diary, for oft have I agonized in your pages 'or worries of scorn and dismissal, should notice fall to my bust, my hips, or my hairless chin. How often I looked upon the fairest of my brother knights and smiled, but then twisted the words on my tongue such that all was heard were sighs over goldenhaired maidens or willowy elfmaids. How mine own grip on my lips choked me, and how I despaired when I mourned over choosing a sacrifice: my honor, carried as a testament to my parents and brother, or my hopes of love, for so long lashed and mastered as weakness. You know the solomn sense of doomed duty with which I affirmed my choice anew each night, till cruel fate laughed in my face and dyed me with those colors I had taught myself to despise.

    But, though I flatter myself when I think I am one whose path the Lady would guide, I think I begin to learn the lesson such sharp loss was meant to teach. Honesty is the root of honor. How then was I meant to have honor as a knight if to strive for such meant I could not be honest?

    Such thoughts I once pushed down, for then the only path I could see in them was to abandon knighthood, abandon honor, in order to save it. (I wonder sometimes, at those who must have known but looked discretely aside, did I have honor in their eyes?)

    I have learned well of defiance. I SHALL be honest AND honorable, a Knight of Renown, and be well wed to a man of Noble bearing ere my time comes to an end. I defy thine narrow fate- no part of what I reach for shall I abandon! This vow I throw in the teeth of those who would crush me, be they false friend or raging orc.

    In service to that, last night I put aside my armor and long blade, unbound my hair and washed the dust and blood from my brow. Some women of the halflings were willing to assist when asked, and with skillful fingers painted eyes and lips. (Though the whole time, they chattered of how much I resembles a maid from the book one was reading. Such was my confusion that it was shortly pressed upon me, to be read and traded later for another. I confess that I may well keep this "Arturia and Lancelot" in the end. I knew of many whose stories start as mine did, a hairless chin in armor, but to find that such was almost a genre unto itself?)

    Shall I recount my entrance, like some Estallian debutante shown to society for the first time? Nay, for though I move in her direction I know not what such things really mean... Put simply I wore skirts of red and a dagger upon my hip, with my heart pounding near to ripping its way from my chest.

    i must ask though, how many Estallian debutantes are greeted with rowdy cheers and money changing hands? Francesco, once I had made my way to him (and the table of other officers in our position) quietly informed me that a betting pool had begun almost as soon as I had been given my first command. He went on to inform me that I had lost him fifteen silvers by not continuing with breeches and tabard till after the expedition was called concluded!

    Such, dear diary, is the caliber of men amongst which I find myself, having now prompted them to think of me as a woman as well as a knight. Oswald is true steel to be sure, though only as a friend for I look not upon him with lust. Francesco is a rock and pleasing to the eye for an older man, but I suspect another betting pool held (but I get ahead of myself!) a purse he wished back, for he refrained from showing new interest despite my awkward attempts at eyes.

    I pause here for my blushes to burn back. Diary, I am in pain remembering such things- bury me under rock and collapse the mine behind you, I beg!

    The ale began it, for we were all well towards being drunk when the grey-robed Magister casually broke a keystone of my world. Then we lined up to sign for our share of, well, silver rooster coins, but was that the phrase to pass through a single grimy pair of lips that night? No! I swear to the Lady and that laughing miscreant that an evening stuffed full of puns on male members was the LAST thing I expected to face when I dressed myself for the party.

    So at this point in the story, dear diary, we were all drunk, raunchy, and loud. (Of course I joined in! Such humor is half at least of what you hear growing as a squire, so in my cups I forgot to care about changed circumstances.) Wagers were being made. Thanks the Lady I kept my head through that, but such prudence was not to last. Wagers were being made, and then a fighting ring was drawn.

    Francesco was holding court in a corner, the long story of his journey east unspooling as breathless listeners plyed him with beer. Oswald was running a book, taking bets on what seemed to be a strange form of duels- two stood on a bench with flagons on their heads, and tried to rock the bench such that the beer spilled and soaked their opponent.

    So when the Magister marked the center of the rope circle and opened it to challenges, I had no trusted comrades about me to fortify my resolve.

    This, finally, was the temptation upon which I'd wager my hard-earned pay, for with the ale in my head I was certain I knew the moment any two stepped in the ring who was the stronger.

    And did I not? Dear diary, do you think I lied earlier of Ranald's smirking attention?

    Thrice running I named the loser of the fight afore the first punch was thrown, and thrice my coin returned to me doubled. Alas, my tongue grew bold and cruel, and the fourth bout was a challenge to me direct, a friend of the previous loser who took offense to my laughter upon his inglorious defeat.

    The challenger's manner was crude, his proposal of a wager cruder, I take pride that I was in the ring (dress or no!) before his stupid mouth shut.

    The fight was quick, for he was laughing and I was not. A clumsy grab from his right hand was caught by mine, and a pull forwards with a trip stretched him out. The left hand to bounce his face off the floor may, perchance, have been a bit petty.

    The response from the crowd (for my erstewhile opponent lay senseless) was raucous. Shouting, screaming- one Ulrican with arms wrapped round friends threw back his head and howled.

    And Oh! His visage struck me, as he looked down again and smiled. Black curls falling 'gainst a strong nose, with bright laughing eyes. The torchlight danced in them as his grin turned from me as I straightened in the center of the ring, to the pushing, shouting boys round the edge, struggling to be the one to challenge me.

    Quick as a cat he lept in to join me, my guard halfway up before he turned to address those ringside, suddenly quiet.

    "The Lady Knight's proven herself, we all saw. But you! You have not proven worthy to face her! I challenge all who'd challenge her- beat me first if you think yourself worth her time!"

    He looked back to me and asked, "If my lady will grant me the ring?"

    Oh diary, he knew exactly what he was doing. And as he looked at me with his roughish grin and laughing eyes, I knew what he was doing. And he knew that I knew, so how else could I respond?

    "Certainly my lord."

    And with that it was his show, and a delicious show did he prepare. Sir Oskar, or so his friends quickly informed me (though only after adopting me with much boisterous laughter) was quite obviously showing off. There was no need for him to pull off his shirt! No need for the blatantly stylistic swirls and flourishes and even less for him to begin taking his opponents two and three at a time. But by then I knew this show was just for me, as he danced through dozens.

    There very much was a need for the bookrunners to pull him from the circle when none could be found to bet the odds against him.

    So he strode out, champion by acclaim, back to me where I laughed surrounded by knights of the wolf God. Ah Lady, what more could I ask for than I have already been given! The very day I find glory, that night I find one such as him?

    We left together, finding his wolf lounging next to the door as if he knew he would be needed. Sir Oskar mounted, swept me up ahead of him and wrapped his thick cloak around us both as his wolf, Rolf, carried us up the slopes of Karag Nar.

    There, oh diary, with soft words and gentle laughter under the stars, did I first truely know a man. We lay there late as the heavens wheeled about us, and when cold grew teeth Rolf carried us down, dropping me off near where I was to sleep.

    This may have been be the best day I ever have in my entire life.

    Noon promises battle a'new. Wish me luck, dear diary.
     
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  • Apocrypha
    • Ergh, personally I always really dislike the 'put them all together into a sub-group' organization of Threadmarks -- because it plays havoc on the chronology and where-does-this-exist-in-the-physical-thread aspects of things... I like having everything in post-order, so that every forward-arrow goes forward, rather than having some parts where it'll drop you in the thread or back...

    ... But that's... partly a stylistic thing.

    Just... one I really really hate. >< Especially because/when people will make multiple serial sidestories, and they'll all be grouped up and the chronology and page numbers go all over the place.

    Please just keep them as chronological as possible. =/
     
    @BoneyM earlier I had the idea that Johann might have a high enough Intrigue to be useful as an assistant/substitute interrogator. Does Mathilde think that He would be able to assist meaningfully, or would he need specialist training first? If he does need training would he be able to access it from the grey college and would we be able to order him to do so?
     
    Reynal said:
    On the value of the prisoner's intelligence, I would like to bring to your attention that the Patriarch of the Grey Order specifically told us to bring any more interesting intelligence from the Skaven to him. That rather suggests that at least he believes that the strategic intelligence our Skaven has would still be useful.
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    He specifically said:
    BoneyM said:
    Needless to say, if your guest spills anything else of interest I want to hear about it."
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    IE keep me updated. He said nothing about what quality or type of information the skaven has.

    You are going for the theoretically optimal argument that falls apart in the real world. We have no idea how long we will have him.
     
    Garlak said:
    Ergh, personally I always really dislike the 'put them all together into a sub-group' organization of Threadmarks -- because it plays havoc on the chronology and where-does-this-exist-in-the-physical-thread aspects of things... I like having everything in post-order, so that every forward-arrow goes forward, rather than having some parts where it'll drop you in the thread or back...

    ... But that's... partly a stylistic thing.

    Just... one I really really hate. >< Especially because/when people will make multiple serial sidestories, and they'll all be grouped up and the chronology and page numbers go all over the place.

    Please just keep them as chronological as possible. =/
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    This is me experimenting with trying to get it to sit in the right place.

    I'm 100% certain at this point the drop down goes by time of threadmark getting put down. Which is fixable but requires me deleting and reputting threadmarks, which I'll only do with @BoneyM's okay.
     
    Lupercal said:
    @BoneyM earlier I had the idea that Johann might have a high enough Intrigue to be useful as an assistant/substitute interrogator. Does Mathilde think that He would be able to assist meaningfully, or would he need specialist training first? If he does need training would he be able to access it from the grey college and would we be able to order him to do so?
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    I'll add options to bring in others (Johann, Max, Grey Wizard mindholer, etc) to the coming update. The costs and benefits are debatable and largely unknowable in advance. It's simplest to keep it to just Qrech and Mathilde, but it's also possible that someone else might be able to form a stronger bond with Qrech. It's entirely an art, rather than a science, and it will need to be debated rather than being able to know the correct answer in advance, or even being able to calculate approximate odds of success for any given approach.
     
    Some of the always-really-useful intel could be stuff like "the full list of Weapons and Spells and Monsters that Skaven have access to." Because it's... partly timeless.

    It doesn't matter what clan has them, so long as you know that thy exist; if you know what weapons they have, you know what weapons to look out for. So it's partly timeless that way.

    (Of course, stuff like "What magic do the Skaven know?" might (or might not) already be a known factor, but that was just a theoretical example.)

    EDIT:
    BungieONI said:
    I'm 100% certain at this point the drop down goes by time of threadmark getting put down. Which is fixable but requires me deleting and reputting threadmarks, which I'll only do with @BoneyM's okay.
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    Yer kidding me.

    It's literally totally fixed in place like that? So if anyone ever messes up when adding threadmarks, the one-click thing is permanently fixed in how it shows it?

    ... Why did this thing start to happen anyway, in Xenforo 2. These types of problems didn't even exist in the previous version, I don't think.

    This plus the "give the date by when the threadmark is made, not when the post is made" is... extremely inconvenient and unpalatable.
     
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    Quest said:
    And with all of this one major argument is that until we get Queekish from him he'll be burning an action every turn. If that's most important, get it and suddenly he becomes much less important as we can replace him if he's uncooperative.
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    I'm really not in favor of burning 1 AP on the Skaven for several turns in an AP sink just to throw more and more prep actions on the Lexicon (of uncertain value) without starting on the Lexicon. Infact, I am very uncomfortable rolling more and more hidden dices on our Skaven, because I suspect that a crit-fail at any point is going to make our task much harder, paradoxical to the idea that more AP chucked at this Skaven makes our goal of the Lexicon easier. Honestly, my position is that if we can't get our Queekish lexicon out of our prisoner within one to two turns (maybe simply because Mathilde + Deceiver is not good enough an interrogator to coax Khazalid to Queekish script out of our prisoner), we should just deport our Prisoner to the Grey College, who can probably keep the prisoner even more secure than we can, against non-mundane means, with interrogators of even higher skill than us.

    Also, remember our goal is a Lexicon of the written Queekish script as it corresponds to Khazalid, not spoken/scented Queekish. Prep plans such as getting Wolf to talk Prasentia, and then having Wolf learn Queekish, and then using spoken Queekish to reverse engineer the Queekish script basically means three more turns of keeping the Prisoner, and three, if not more AP flushed down the drain just because we keep objecting to taking the plunge to the Lexicon on factors we don't even know for certain, are valid, because we've not even made an attempt at the Lexicon and analyzed the obstacles. Basically, plans that propose holding off on the Queekish Lexicon for multiple turns are plans that are unfortunately based on alot of speculation, and not much hard data, plans that propose throwing AP after AP on guesswork, that Mathilde can only plausibly make headway at answering via the try and find out principle.
     
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    Does anyone remember who the OP was for 'no favor mines'?

    Edit: nm, found the shopping list for that vote.
     
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    The problem with any other information vs Queekish is that Queekish is what normally gates all of this other information. It turns getting skaven info from "luckily find a skaven capable of speaking Reikspeil or Khazalid, slowly get the information put of them a d hope it's accurate" to "head under the city, grab a bunch of skaven, apply standard interrogation techniques".

    It's also helpful to practically everyone in the old world, not just one or two fronts. It gives every information gatherer in the world the ability to gain information from the skaven. The scale of the effect is simply on another level.
     
    The kinda-problem with that is that it's not the only weird/"messed up in the drop-down" (but actually fixed in the View All and in the navigation order) ones around.

    Sidestory.

    Ivory Road, Panoramia's Letter Home (the first one) are both at page 1321 but show up before the Letter to Wilhelmina (1303) and Most Infuriating Journeymanling (1312). ((The Fate of Skarnisk is on 1394.))



    But it got fixed in the navigation. It just remains weird-looking in the dropdown.


    So, this sort of "delete and re-add the Threadmarks" thing has the issue that... If a mistake was made half a dozen or a dozen threadmarks back, you have to delete a lot of threadmarks...
     
    This has probably been mentioned before, but if we tell him that the empire already knows queekish, then we are also telling him that the conspiracy of silence is a lie.
     
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