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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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BoneyM said:
What little you do know suggests that it uses items that have other Winds inside them and very carefully manipulates them with very light touches of Chamon. If done properly, no two Winds ever directly touch at any point in the process.
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Huh. So it's possible that it's only possible with extreme delicacy and precision -- and, probably, if you are working with settled magic, i.e. magic that is inside items. Trying to use Winds externally, one Wind on another Wind, might not get you anywhere; you can't pull off the delicate touch involved, because to gather any amount of this second Wind, you have to be more direct and employ more contact.
SuperSonicSound said:
Regardless it's something of a shot in the arm for trying out wind-wind manipulation. Granted it's not going to be simple but I think it's worth the experimentation. We're in the best place of all human wizards that have lived so far to be able to try it being immune to dhar corruption and having a magical null clean room which is the best synthesis of dwarf and college techniques that currently exist.
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Well I mean, not necessarily a shot in the arm.

Because keep in mind the other thing that BoneyM has said about the Winds:
BoneyM said:
You can study multiple Winds one at a time as long as you have a good long detox period in between, but as soon as you get an Arcane Mark you're locked into whatever the Wind you got it for was, so most don't want to risk getting stuck with a Wind that isn't the one they're most compatible with.
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It's possible that the only way for a human to have hypothetically become a High Magic user, would be if he extremely absurdly carefully mastered 1 Wind of Magic without getting any Arcane Marks at all, and then continued to do that for the rest of the 7 Winds. And then somehow combined all that. All without ever getting an Arcane Mark. He'd somehow need to live long enough to do that, too.

It could be that any Wizard who gets an Arcane Mark for their wind -- like Mathilde with her shadow and flickering candles -- is screwed out of this hypothetical.
 
Harried said:
Wait a second, wasn't Volans anomalously old while also not having done any of the heavy duty channeling that's generally supposed to give wizards long lifespans?
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Apparently was 50s, looked like in his 30s and yeah had never touched a wind directly in his life, just looked at em.

Volans was all kinds of anomalies.
 
So I was thinking about the manipulate other winds with Ulgu thing, and wanted to post my thoughts. If we go with Mathilde's interpretation of Ulgu as fog, let's run with the metaphor. Fog obscures things, but it's because it's the suspension of water particles in air. So soak tiny amounts of another wind in Ulgu, and use this "fog" to wield the other wind. I imagine it would be vastly expensive and wasteful in terms of efficiency and focus, but I can imagine that as an initial step in the investigation.

As for the Teclis thing, maybe it's not just arrogance or a conspiracy to keep humans down, but a practical balance of utility with respect to the timescale that humans operate in?
 
Doomed Wombat said:
TBF He's not wrong, trying would likely kill him without constant supervision from an elf, if he tried on his own and assuming he didn't become a Dhar infused mess he'd still probably die of old age long before he got the opportunity to try (that'd happen if he got elfy training too), but even then it seems theoretically possible for a human to learn...
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He was the direct student of the greatest elven mage of the modern era...

Harried said:
Wait a second, wasn't Volans anomalously old while also not having done any of the heavy duty channeling that's generally supposed to give wizards long lifespans?
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I don't think so.
 
Garlak said:
Huh. So it's possible that it's only possible with extreme delicacy and precision -- and, probably, if you are working with settled magic, i.e. magic that is inside items. Trying to use Winds externally, one Wind on another Wind, might not get you anywhere; you can't pull off the delicate touch involved, because to gather any amount of this second Wind, you have to be more direct and employ more contact.

Well I mean, not necessarily a shot in the arm.

Because keep in mind the other thing that BoneyM has said about the Winds:

It's possible that the only way for a human to have hypothetically become a High Magic user, would be if he extremely absurdly carefully mastered 1 Wind of Magic without getting any Arcane Marks at all, and then continued to do that for the rest of the 7 Winds. And then somehow combined all that. All without ever getting an Arcane Mark. He'd somehow need to live long enough to do that, too.

It could be that any Wizard who gets an Arcane Mark for their wind -- like Mathilde with her shadow and flickering candles -- is screwed out of this hypothetical.
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While this is all a understandable position to have I can't really see wny reason not to try. Worst comes to worst we make a bit of Dhar, it gets vented and we write of the theory. After all we would not have to assume a mindset to use Dhar and external Dhar gets burned off by the belt.
 
Garlak said:
Huh. So it's possible that it's only possible with extreme delicacy and precision -- and, probably, if you are working with settled magic, i.e. magic that is inside items. Trying to use Winds externally, one Wind on another Wind, might not get you anywhere; you can't pull off the delicate touch involved, because to gather any amount of this second Wind, you have to be more direct and employ more contact.
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No, thats specifically a Chamon thing. Chamon likes precise, permanent, structured things.
You can look to magical animals and plants for Ghur and Ghyran versions of "not technically using another Wind".
 
Alratan said:
He was the direct student of the greatest elven mage of the modern era...
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For about 20 years on and off as said teacher was being shared between dozens if not hundreds of other students while also fighting in numerous wars.

Take all that into account and Volans probably got even less total teaching time even before you consider how 20 years is barely enough to start elf magic 101.

And yeah Volans was apparently in his 50s looked 30 etc. despite barely using any magic. Dude was weird.
 
Kornet said:
On the other hand, Volans was cautious to a fault. I mean, he trained himself for years to observe the winds, but he never actually used them before Teclis.

I can't even begin to understand that level of caution.
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Consider that mastered MAgesight makes you able to read people's thoughts and intentions. Even without ever casting a spell, honing that skill would be both a massive time sink and an enormous advantage. When channeling the Winds is religiously proscribed and know to turn you into an insane blob.

There's lots of things we could do that we know are dangerous, so we don't.

Doomed Wombat said:
For about 20 years on and off as said teacher was being shared between dozens if not hundreds of other students while also fighting in numerous wars.

Take all that into account and Volans probably got even less total teaching time even before you consider how 20 years is barely enough to start elf magic 101.

And yeah Volans was apparently in his 50s looked 30 etc. despite barely using any magic. Dude was weird.
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I don't think the Empire was fighting almost any wars for those twenty years. it was a period of rebuilding. Elves can learn magic while being adventurers just like humans can.

In terms of his age, RoS says that he refined his ability to see and touch the Winds of Magic. He had experimented and practiced with magic for decades, which is what kept him young. He simply hadn't tried to shape the Winds into a spell, which is what seems to be what creates Dhar and causes corruption.

veekie said:
No, thats specifically a Chamon thing. Chamon likes precise, permanent, structured things.
You can look to magical animals and plants for Ghur and Ghyran versions of "not technically using another Wind".
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And possibly mists/vapours for Ulgu. For Ghyran, you might also look at water, as Ghyran is the magic of water just as Aqshy is the magic of fire.
 
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Alratan said:
I don't think the Empire was fighting almost any wars for those twenty years. it was a period of rebuilding. Elves can learn magic while being adventurers just like humans can.

In terms of his age, RoS says that he refined his ability to see and touch the Winds of Magic. He had experimented and practiced with magic for decades. He simply hadn't tried to shape the Winds into a spell, which is what seems to be what creates Dhar and causes corruption.
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This is warhammer, fighting certainly didn't stop it just started generally going the empires way as Magnus sorted shop, there's still going to be Waaarghs, beastmen, Norscans, vampires and other assorted gribbles boiling out of the woodworks especially in the direct aftermath of the war against chaos.

I know hence why I said barely using any magic, as you yourself say he did some early experiments.
 
vsh said:
I think it fits Ulgu better to be sort of empowered illusions, or "borderline X" effects for Ulgu.
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I think you want to go Wind 1- > something real - > Wind 2. I suspect you need the insulation of an aspect of the material world to separate the Winds. Alchemy goes Chamon -> a chemical reaction -> Another Wind. Even Necromancy arguably goes Shyish - > something dead -> Dhar.

Doomed Wombat said:
This is warhammer, fighting certainly didn't stop it just started generally going the empires way as Magnus sorted shop, there's still going to be Waaarghs, beastmen, Norscans, vampires and other assorted gribbles boiling out of the woodworks especially in the direct aftermath of the war against chaos.

I know hence why I said barely using any magic, as you yourself say he did some early experiments.
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I don't think there are recorded Waaasghs in the period, and the beastmen and Norscans would have been broken with the rest of the hosts of chaos. The vampires seemed to be in one of their live and let unlive phases.

Volans did a couple of early experiments with spellcasting that scared him off trying, but he explicitly practiced and experimented with magic for decades after that, touching the Winds but not forming them into spells, which seems the critical difference.
 
Derpmind said:
Being myself, I immediately went for the most ridiculous conclusion I felt was reasonably possible, that being she 100% hid a second priestly affiliation. If I were to go further, I'd be suspicious of how the thread itself implicitly trusts her. :p
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I am like 23% certain she actually is a vampire and just fooled everyone into thinking she was a human pretending to be a vampire.

It might be due to a subconscious desire on my part for Mathilde's chosen deity to be okay with vampires.
 
Alratan said:
I don't think there are recorded Waaasghs in the period, and the beastmen and Norscans would have been broken with the rest of the hosts of chaos. The vampires seemed to be in one of their live and let unlive phases.

Volans did a couple of early experiments with spellcasting that scared him off trying, but he explicitly practiced and experimented with magic for decades after that, touching the Winds but not forming them into spells, which seems the critical difference.
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There are no waaarghs or threats recorded for the majority of the empires history.

Bad records of course are a thing, but I don't think its unreasonable for us to use our logic to fill in rest of the long reign of an important, but ultimately back ground character who Games Workshop wouldn't have felt the need to plot out every war of a very long time in power.

Perhaps I'm just too used to Alchohlism, but the idea that "and Magnus the Pious killed the Everchosen, rebuilt the empire and nothing ever attacked it for the rest of his reign the end" doesn't strike me as particularly plausible in Warhammer of all settings.

And I know hence why I said barely, not didn't.
 
Doomed Wombat said:
For about 20 years on and off as said teacher was being shared between dozens if not hundreds of other students while also fighting in numerous wars.

Take all that into account and Volans probably got even less total teaching time even before you consider how 20 years is barely enough to start elf magic 101.

And yeah Volans was apparently in his 50s looked 30 etc. despite barely using any magic. Dude was weird.
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He channeled magic. He did not use it. Basically just acted as glorified pipe without doing any manipulation that could fuck shit up.
 
Omegahugger said:
I am like 23% certain she actually is a vampire and just fooled everyone into thinking she was a human pretending to be a vampire.

It might be due to a subconscious desire on my part for Mathilde's chosen deity to be okay with vampires.
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There is no reason why Randald would be opposed to vampirism, he is neither a death god who would be cheated a soul, a life god who would object to the perversion of the natural order or a god of purity who would object to the dark magic used. What Ranald would oppose would be the parasitism that all vampires bar perhaps one practice.
 
Doomed Wombat said:
There are no waaarghs or threats recorded for the majority of the empires history.

Bad records of course are a thing, but I don't think its unreasonable for us to use our logic to fill in rest of the long reign of an important, but ultimately back ground character who Games Workshop wouldn't have felt the need to plot out every war of a very long time in power.

Perhaps I'm just too used to Alchohlism, but the idea that "and Magnus the Pious killed the Everchosen, rebuilt the empire and nothing ever attacked it for the rest of his reign the end" doesn't strike me as particularly plausible in Warhammer of all settings.

And I know hence why I said barely, not didn't.
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I'm sure there was stuff but after the chaos hordes were dealt with it would have been a low level ebb and flow. Keep in mind greenskins are attracted to the kind of fights that take place in giant battles like that so probably got themselves wiped out at the same time.

Also the period and reign of Magnus the pious is very close to the modern era. Magnus the Pious died in 2369. That barely more than a hundred years away. We're not talking ancient history.
 
Alternatively, everything was too scared of the Emperor that shoved Ghal Maraz into Everchosens skull.
 
Doomed Wombat said:
There are no waaarghs or threats recorded for the majority of the empires history.

Bad records of course are a thing, but I don't think its unreasonable for us to use our logic to fill in rest of the long reign of an important, but ultimately back ground character who Games Workshop wouldn't have felt the need to plot out every war of a very long time in power.

Perhaps I'm just too used to Alchohlism, but the idea that "and Magnus the Pious killed the Everchosen, rebuilt the empire and nothing ever attacked it for the rest of his reign the end" doesn't strike me as particularly plausible in Warhammer of all settings.

And I know hence why I said barely, not didn't.
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The Empire manages to survive, and, at times, prosper. It can't continually be at war, otherwise it wouldn't have survived for nearly three thousand years. There must be time when there's peace for a generation to recover their numbers before the next war. They're at peace often enough that they can focus their efforts on fighting civil wars, on getting rich, and maintaining urban civilization.

I think that Volans was very regularly touching the winds, he just wasn't using them to cast spells.
 
DragonParadox said:
There is no reason why Randald would be opposed to vampirism, he is neither a death god who would be cheated a soul, a life god who would object to the perversion of the natural order or a god of purity who would object to the dark magic used. What Ranald would oppose would be the parasitism that all vampires bar perhaps one practice.
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Pfft, a God of Thievery being against parasitism, that's a good one.
 
DragonParadox said:
There is no reason why Randald would be opposed to vampirism, he is neither a death god who would be cheated a soul, a life god who would object to the perversion of the natural order or a god of purity who would object to the dark magic used. What Ranald would oppose would be the parasitism that all vampires bar perhaps one practice.
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I don't think the god of thieves and conmen has a philosophical objection to being a parasite. He's opposed to tyrants, but other forms of exploitation such as fraud, theft, or gambling are fine with him. People try to whitewash Ranald because of his Protector aspect, but it's a very specific opposition to tyrants, not a support of victims. Ranald the Protector is the god of 'live free or die'. It's more like Ayn Rand Objectivism, a command that an individual should not let themself be oppressed by someone else, not that you personally shouldn't oppress others.
 
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Alratan said:
I don't think the god of thieves and conmen has a philosophical objection to being a parasite. He's opposed to tyrants, but other forms of exploitation such as fraud, theft, or gambling are fine with him. People try to whitewash Ranald because of his Protector aspect, but it's a very specific opposition to tyrants, not a support of victims. Ranald the Protector is the god of 'live free or die'.
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Hmm... fair. He is the Robin Hood god, there's nothing that says the rogue who protects the people can't do so by supping on the blood of tyrants.
 
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