Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[forlornhope]

I would say this to ironhammer and the dwarf race if I could without being grudged on


you are only defeated if you believe you are defeated and think all hope is lost remember this there is always a path to victory how that victory looks like is up to you hollow or filling


@BoneyM. what do you think of this little speech

 

[Seventeen]

I'm pretty damned certain that a "bonus to the room's purpose" is a real benefit.

And it's one we'll want for research and enchanting or rituals, because those are all things we really don't want going wrong.

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Oh, somehow I missed that.

@BoneyM: Is this intended? That we can only get bonuses to labs, etc, from having them in towers?

Edit: One potential reading I'm seeing is that tower rooms have their purpose straight away, whereas excavated rooms have to be, well, excavated first. But once they're set up properly, they may still get the bonus. We'll have to wait for BoneyM to confirm which way it's supposed to be.

 

[NeonLights]

Since the Journeymen count as doing Mathilde's job I'd like to devote only one personal action towards scouting, so we can spend more actions on ourselves.

 

[Boney]

I would say this to ironhammer and the dwarf race if I could without being grudged on

you are only defeated if you believe you are defeated and think all hope is lost remember this there is always a path to victory how that victory looks like is up to you hollow or filling

@BoneyM. what do you think of this little speech

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Seems like a self-righteous thing for Mathilde to say to a race that's been in a death spiral since before her ancestors thought 'rock' was the cutting edge in military technology.

Oh, somehow I missed that.

@BoneyM: Is this intended? That we can only get bonuses to labs, etc, from having them in towers?

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No, but all else being equal a laboratory tower is better than just a laboratory.

 

[Guile]

Oh, somehow I missed that.

@BoneyM: Is this intended? That we can only get bonuses to labs, etc, from having them in towers?

Edit: One potential reading I'm seeing is that tower rooms have their purpose straight away, whereas excavated rooms have to be, well, excavated first. But once they're set up properly, they may still get the bonus. We'll have to wait for BoneyM to confirm which way it's supposed to be.

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BoneyM tired of us digging in like a dwarf

 

[chocolote12]

It makes sense that everything magical is apparently just plain better if it's in a tower, but it still amuses me. Magic has an aesthetic, I guess.

 

[Alliterate]

Galaxybrain: Task Johan with Skaven-Scouting.

Since the Journeymen count as doing Mathilde's job I'd like to devote only one personal action towards scouting, so we can spend more actions on ourselves.

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[Harried]

It might be that a tower suite is purpose built; to whatever task it eventually needs to serve, but carved out rooms are utilitarian cubes, because if you wanted fiddly bits for better feng shui the whole thing would collapse.

 

[SuperSonicSound]

Also something to keep in mind but the colleges are quite capable of making a room that nulls outside interference for magic. The room where the Patriarchs duel for the position of Supreme Patriarch are said to be made from lead and obsidian as they don't react to the magical energies unleashed. IIRC they're called out as insulators if I remember the passage right.

 

[Seventeen]

No, but all else being equal a laboratory tower is better than just a laboratory.

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Ah, that's a relief. I hate writing big posts already, but man would I have felt dumb if I'd been that wrong the whole time.

It depends on how big the difference is, but at this point I think I like the aesthetics of the plain mountaintop more than the mountaintop tower enough to stick with it despite the quantitative mechanical difference.

 

[Seventeen]

Also something to keep in mind but the colleges are quite capable of making a room that nulls outside interference for magic. The room where the Patriarchs duel for the position of Supreme Patriarch are said to be made from lead and obsidian as they don't react to the magical energies unleashed. IIRC they're called out as insulators if I remember the passage right.

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True, but the Dwarfs can do that as well, while they can't do the wind-boosting stuff. Ten of our College favour gets us an enchanting lab and a spell creation lab, I believe, whether tower or underground. That leaves only seven for anything else we want like magic items, books, etc. Meanwhile we'll have thirteen spare Dwarf favour after the sword and not much else to spend it on.

 

[Redshirt Army]

Mathilde is shaping up to be the least subtle Grey Wizard in history, which I find incredibly amusing. There's all these folks keeping their heads down, doing proper spycraft by building up an information net while pretending to be dirt farmers for thirty years... and then there's Mathilde, who pulls off bullshit James Bond stunts while her theme music plays loudly in the background.

 

[BlackWink]

Seems like a self-righteous thing for Mathilde to say to a race that's been in a death spiral since before her ancestors thought 'rock' was the cutting edge in military technology.



No, but all else being equal a laboratory tower is better than just a laboratory.

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Interesting phrasing.

So
50 25 gc gives 1 underground room.
100 gc gives tower room (tower is bonus).
What if we spent
100 gc on 1 underground room? Will it give enough bonus to make up for the fact it's not a tower?

I don't even see why the tower gets a natural bonus, unless the 360 panoramic window is responsible. Replacing the peak with a Mayan pyramid should have its own charms.

 

[Seventeen]

So
50 gc gives 1 underground room.
100 gc gives tower room (tower has bonus).
What if we spent
100 gc on 1 underground room? Will it give enough bonus to make up for the fact it's not a tower?

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Not quite. 50gc gets two rooms excavated, but we don't know how much it's going to cost to get them fitted out and furnished. It may be that an underground room costs 100gc for set up anyway.

Fortunately we have a veritable dragon's hoard of silver to spend among the dwarfs.

 

[Neptune]

If the trolls are dealt with first, the dwarves can see if there's gromril to be found within it. They presumably can deal with the extremely toxic fallout of mining gromril.

Might be interesting to take some very small chunks, place it very far away from anyone or anything important, and try to dhar-unravel it.

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There's also literally a cavern called Gromril Mine right under the citadel on the map, so this is also an avenue to pursue as there's still a chance there's some left within it. We can even utilize our Gold wizards to help out, show them some Gromril and they can sense what the gold wind does around it, then using then use the same skill that they used in the casino and what Mathilde used in the construction of the lab where she generated specific winds to find where it likes to concentrate.

Gromril Mines in canon can last thousands of years after all, and given this hold fell three thousand years ago there's good chance there's still some left. With the above advantage of not having to mine randomly, the odds of finding small veins that would have been missed increases. The scarcity of Gromril in canon is more due to the complete lack of any Gromril mines in Dwarven hands so the supply is stagnant, however from canon those sites where Gromril is found can be very productive and as mentioned last thousands of years.

 

[EVA-Saiyajin]

Interesting phrasing.

So
50 gc gives 1 underground room.
100 gc gives tower room (tower is bonus).
What if we spent
100 gc on 1 underground room? Will it give enough bonus to make up for the fact it's not a tower?

I don't even see why the tower gets a natural bonus, unless the 360 panoramic window is responsible. Replacing the peak with a Mayan pyramid should have its own charms.

Click to shrink...

Well there's this:

Being literally above the world does mean you have a level of insulation from the ambient magical energies, but honestly it's mostly just a really cool thing that signifies "I am Wizard, fear and respect me".

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[Kornet]

Also something to keep in mind but the colleges are quite capable of making a room that nulls outside interference for magic. The room where the Patriarchs duel for the position of Supreme Patriarch are said to be made from lead and obsidian as they don't react to the magical energies unleashed. IIRC they're called out as insulators if I remember the passage right.

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Yes, but by WOG dwarves are better at it.

Mathilde is shaping up to be the least subtle Grey Wizard in history, which I find incredibly amusing. There's all these folks keeping their heads down, doing proper spycraft by building up an information net while pretending to be dirt farmers for thirty years... and then there's Mathilde, who pulls off bullshit James Bond stunts while her theme music plays loudly in the background.

Click to shrink...

One of these days, I am going to write a wall of text on Mathilde as a representation of a less commonly used aspect of Ulgu: smoke instead of the usual shadow, confusion instead of the feeling of being lost.

Mathilde is very ulgu, just in a less explored way.

Right now, too sleepy.

There's also literally a cavern called Gromril Mine right under the citadel on the map, so this is also an avenue to pursue as there's still a chance there's some left within it. We can even utilize our Gold wizards to help out, show them some Gromril and they can sense what the gold wind does around it, then using then use the same skill that they used in the casino and what Mathilde used in the construction of the lab where she generated specific winds to find where it likes to concentrate.

Gromril Mines in canon can last thousands of years after all, and given this hold fell three thousand years ago there's good chance there's still some left. With the above advantage of not having to mine randomly, the odds of finding small veins that would have been missed increases. The scarcity of Gromril in canon is more due to the complete lack of any Gromril mines in Dwarven hands so the supply is stagnant, however from canon those sites where Gromril is found can be very productive and last thousands of years.

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Gromril mines are also full of warpstone, and so are a strategically important object as far as the skaven are concerned. They will fight tooth and nail for it.

 

[SuperSonicSound]

Mathilde is shaping up to be the least subtle Grey Wizard in history, which I find incredibly amusing. There's all these folks keeping their heads down, doing proper spycraft by building up an information net while pretending to be dirt farmers for thirty years... and then there's Mathilde, who pulls off bullshit James Bond stunts while her theme music plays loudly in the background.

Click to shrink...

I actually sort of really love that it's the case. The public grey wizard is kind of hilarious.

 

[EVA-Saiyajin]

Mathilde is shaping up to be the least subtle Grey Wizard in history, which I find incredibly amusing. There's all these folks keeping their heads down, doing proper spycraft by building up an information net while pretending to be dirt farmers for thirty years... and then there's Mathilde, who pulls off bullshit James Bond stunts while her theme music plays loudly in the background.

Click to shrink...

It's also in a way a subtle bit of non-subtlety, via showing the world openly that there is a super sneaky bit going around doing stuff. Myth and legend is as much a tool as fact.

 

[Boney]

I don't even see why the tower gets a natural bonus, unless the 360 panoramic window is responsible. Replacing the peak with a Mayan pyramid should have its own charms.

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Some say it's entirely psychological, some say it's resonation from the White Tower of Hoeth, some say the height allows wizards to unconsciously align themselves with nearby waystones. Whatever the reason, wizards work better in towers.

 

[Guile]

Some say it's entirely psychological, some say it's resonation from the White Tower of Hoeth, some say the height allows wizards to unconsciously align themselves with nearby waystones. Whatever the reason, wizards work better in towers.

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So how many Towers can we build on top of this peak? Is it just the one ramrod reaching to the heavens, or can we build our mountain a crown of wizard crap?

 

[EVA-Saiyajin]

Hmm...So, I'm thinking maybe we should go magically inert for research, magically Ulgu-aligned for Enchantment?

 

[Alliterate]

One of these days, I am going to write a wall of text on Mathilde as a representation of a less commonly used aspect of Ulgu: smoke instead of the usual shadow, confusion instead of the feeling of being lost.

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You'll have good company, Mathilde herself has self-reflected on that very topic.

So how many Towers can we build on top of this peak? Is it just the one ramrod reaching to the heavens, or can we build our mountain a crown of wizard crap?

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Eight peaks, Eight Colleges, Eight rings to bind them all Towers amirite?

 

[BlackWink]

So how many Towers can we build on top of this peak? Is it just the one ramrod reaching to the heavens, or can we build our mountain a crown of wizard crap?

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build a wizzard tower on each of the 8 mountain peaks.
Make massive chaos ritual.
Profit??...

 

[Andmeuths]

@Seventeen I disagree with a few things.

First, making a Tower Room gives an inherent bonus to that room. This sort of mandates that our magical workshops should be all tower rooms.

Second, there's the quality of life issue: a penthouse with an amazing view beats a torch-lit bunker any day.

Ulgu itself requires the play between light and dark, so it benefits from sunlight.

Also, the higher we are, the farther we are from background magic "pollution".

Third, we absolutely should not delve so deep that we make another entrance into our home. The penthouse is fabulously secure by having all of one way of getting in: climbing a shitload of stairs, part of it in full view of the hold, and go through multiple doors.

Inviting random people into our sanctum is the last thing we ought to be doing.

I would say:
- Vault
- Library/Study
- Ulgu-rich tower room (5 college favors)
- Magically-neutral research tower room (X dwarf favors)
-- Add panic buttom to both.

It looks like two towers and two underground, but I think a study really need someplace aired and well lit, not dusty and stuffy.

With the main floor as living quarter. Later, after everything is built and furnished, add a bedroom at the top and transform the first floor into a living room.

I suppose we will have to build the first one, and see what options are open.

@edit: the autocorrect gets worse by the day.

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I think I can respond to some of those concerns. Namely:
-- Every room that is set up to have a specific purpose will get a bonus to that purpose, whether it's in the form of a tower or not. This is the reason why we spend College favours on an Ulgu enchanting or spell creation lab or Dwarf favors on the low-background analysis lab. Tower versus excavated is a purely aesthetic choice for Mathilde, as far as I can see.
-- For quality of life, Mathilde is still going to have a penthouse with 360 degree views. Her actual living quarters won't change at all. This isn't going to be locking Mathilde in a dungeon. Even if it was, she spent most of a decade living underground previously, so it wouldn't be a problem anyway.
-- We already know that Ulgu is present underground, since it's how Mathilde sees while she's sneaking. Since we're not going to be doing things like casting giant Burning Shadowses or Battle Magic spells in our lab, I don't think the extra amount of the wind that's present due to the lab being twilit is going to be necessary.
-- Background magic pollution would only really matter in the analysis lab. And that would be made magically neutral through Dwarf favour, just like you've suggested.
-- All excavating extra rooms would do to the primary entrance is move it downwards. We've already got the top of the mountain to ourselves.
-- Personally, I'm also opposed to inviting other people in to read Mathilde's books. However, I was commenting on a topic that had already come up with some support previously and one that I specifically mentioned wouldn't be actioned until some time in the future, so I don't see that as a reasonable objection at this point.

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Do keep in mind: the way the penthouse vote is currently structured, this debate is going to be relitigated each turn a proposal to expand the penthouse crops up. Even if both of you reach an agreement this turn, there is no guarantee that there would actually be a thread consensus, nor would this consensus necessarily be stable over multiple turns. There is every chance we'd end up building our Ulgu tower underground and Magically neutral research tower up, just because different planners were awake at different times when the penthouse construction vote dropped, and therefore pushed the thread consensus into different directions during the Moratorium.

Infact, there is even no agreement right now about how many labs we want to eventually push for, whether we want two libraries - a restricted library and a more accessible one to the journeymen in residence to our tower, and probably many other arguments that have not shown themselves so far over the lab.

As for my own two cents, if that's what it's worth:

The minimal requirements for our penthouse probably look like this:

1. Journeymen Quarters and Labs (Already done)
2. Secure Library (Urgent - I don't want our journeymen to have free access to some of the more esoteric texts without our permission)
3. Underground Secure Vault (Urgent - access only from our quarters)
4. Ulgu rich tower/enchantment workshop
5. Research Tower - Spell research, weapons testing, etc, etc....
6. Underground Forge Room for Chamon users
7 Airy Study/Observation Tower

Essentially, we might be looking at around three towers, and three underground rooms, with what I'd consider to be a minimal sanctum. It won't surprise me if there are even smaller sanctums preferred by others, who haven't spoken up now. Likewise, those who want to establish a branch campus of the College under our penthouse may well advocate for way more rooms than these 7. For example, I'm sure there's a crowd that'd like us to build 8 towers for the symbolic value of it. They'd run into fierce opposition after tower 3, and it's going to be a mess.

Here's the problem right now: because building the sanctum is a turn by turn vote, and there's no poll in place as to how big a sanctum the consensus actually wants or what the consensus might consider a minimally acceptable sanctum, I fear this issue is going to keep getting relitigated every single time enough of the thread rallies behind penthouse expansion, because it's not clear what the longer term consensus really is from turn by turn voting.

@BoneyM Your thoughts on this potential problem? Or do you think it's not much of a non-issue, and the penthouse debate should be played by ear for now?