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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Nerdasaurus Rex said:
There's one deal that's still extremely viable right now: Clar Karond tells us where a Karond Kar raiding fleet is going to be. The Empire navy ambushes them. Karond Kar runs back to Naggaroth and buys more ships from Clar Karond. Clar Karond then tells us where the new ships are going to be. We ambush them again. Karond Kar buys even more ships from Clar Karond. Clar Karond tells us where those ships are.

Repeat until Malekith catches wind of the scheme or until Karond Kar collapses as a regional power due to the mounting losses and debts.

Bonus points: we can resell the information Clar Karond gives us to Marienburg and Bretonnia, who both have bigger and better fleets than the Empire does.
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I think Karond Kar might become suspicious about a sudden uptick of ambushes on their fleets.

I don't think it'll do something as dramatic as cause them to collapse, even if it went undetected for ages- they raid basically everywhere in the world, and the Sea of Claws is a very small part of that.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Repeat until Malekith catches wind of the scheme or until Karond Kar collapses as a regional power due to the mounting losses and debts.
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I think most likely result is that Karond Kar stops rading Empire and Empire fleets don't chase after them, which is the intented result in the first place.

Mopman43 said:
I think Karond Kar might become suspicious about a sudden uptick of ambushes on their fleets.
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If it happens only around the Empire coast it will just look like Empire has upped the patrols.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
There's one deal that's still extremely viable right now: Clar Karond tells us where a Karond Kar raiding fleet is going to be. The Empire navy ambushes them. Karond Kar runs back to Naggaroth and buys more ships from Clar Karond. Clar Karond then tells us where the new ships are going to be. We ambush them again. Karond Kar buys even more ships from Clar Karond. Clar Karond tells us where those ships are.

Repeat until Malekith catches wind of the scheme or until Karond Kar collapses as a regional power due to the mounting losses and debts.

Bonus points: we can resell the information Clar Karond gives us to Marienburg and Bretonnia, who both have bigger and better fleets than the Empire does.
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^This. You want less raiders, this is how you get less raiders; by killing them.
 
Mopman43 said:
The post I was replying to also suggested getting Bretonnia and Marienburg in on it.
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That would be a matter of timing no? IF after leaving the empire they start rading them it is only natural that they too would react to it and would up their patrols.

Not that we should do it IMO. Marienburg doesn't realld do a whole lot of protection I think. And we just talked about Brettonia backstabbing Empire after the Great war with Parravon couple of pages back. Empire only is the way to go.
 
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Nerdasaurus Rex said:
There's one deal that's still extremely viable right now: Clar Karond tells us where a Karond Kar raiding fleet is going to be. The Empire navy ambushes them. Karond Kar runs back to Naggaroth and buys more ships from Clar Karond. Clar Karond then tells us where the new ships are going to be. We ambush them again. Karond Kar buys even more ships from Clar Karond. Clar Karond tells us where those ships are.

Repeat until Malekith catches wind of the scheme or until Karond Kar collapses as a regional power due to the mounting losses and debts.

Bonus points: we can resell the information Clar Karond gives us to Marienburg and Bretonnia, who both have bigger and better fleets than the Empire does.
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Any plan that depends on the opponent being an npc only works as an exploit to a videogame.

Clan Karond has agency. We may ambush them once or twice, but they'll then catch whiff of something. And when they do, they'll attempt some sort of counterplay.
 
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storryeater said:
Any plan that depends on the opponent being an npc only works as an exploit to a videogame.

Clan Karond has agency. We may ambush them once or twice, but they'll then catch whiff of something. And when they do, they'll attempt some sort of counterplay.
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They might also just cut their loses, as said previously, they raid everyone so avoiding someone for a few hundred years until they forget is absolutely viable to them.
 
Tobtorp said:
They might also just cut their loses, as said previously, they raid everyone so avoiding someone for a few hundred years until they forget is absolutely viable to them.
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I hate to be a cynic since Druchi are an existential threat to reality, but as we won't be dealing them any grave wound in this scenario (since even the loses of Karond will be to the benefit of another Druchi house) nor reaping a long term advantage against them, I'll have to ask:

How will this benefit the Empire more than most other uses of its fleet, given the fact that it barely has a raidable coastline anyway?
 
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storryeater said:
Any plan that depends on the opponent being an npc only works as an exploit to a videogame.

Clan Karond has agency. We may ambush them once or twice, but they'll then catch whiff of something. And when they do, they'll attempt some sort of counterplay.
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Since we're already talking about extended hypotheticals, I would like to observe that it's not impossible that said 'counterplay' would be checking for internal spies, rather than trying to do a bigger attack on the Empire, or whatever. I mean, if you were an elf and your ambushes on a human coastline kept getting foiled, would you think that the humans suddenly got sharper on their own? Or would you think that maybe you have a leak feeding them information?

Point here is: let's not start catastrophizing before actually talking to the Druchii further.
 
storryeater said:
I hate to be a cynic since Druchi are an existential threat to reality, but as we won't be dealing them any grave wound in this scenario (since even the loses of Karond will be to the benefit of another Druchi house) nor reaping a long term advantage against them, I'll have to ask:

How will this benefit the Empire more than most other uses of its fleet, given the fact that it barely has a raidable coastline anyway?
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Well it's fleet mostly just sits there, so actually having a use is already an upgrade. And if we sell the info to other more maritime nations, then the benefit is whatever the negotiated payment is from our client. And I'd rather have slightly richer boat-builders with less raiders than the other way around.
 
Re Druchii diplomacy in general I'd say any attempts are likely gonna have to wait till after Elf!cation unless enough of the thread is down to torch that bridge. Considering how it nearly won last vote, and given past trends regarding "second place" large projects in Turn Votes I'd say it seems unlikely the thread would go "yeah let's bin Nagarythe."

And yes I think engaging in any Diplomacy with Druchii, even if it is just "tell us how to kill other Druchii," has a considerable chance of nuking any Nagarythe ties. Nagarythe has pretty much based it's national identity on "hates Druchii" and that's not something you really talk someone out of with rational cost analysis.

Contrapositive is that I'd think the dudes in Laurelorn would still be down to talk even if Mathilde's Dark Elf Killing Sabatical got leaked since "lol fuck those Shade Clan losers." But now we're talking like 2 two turn plans and one adventure arc in the future and I find making plans that far out really tenuous.
 
Parabola said:
Since we're already talking about extended hypotheticals, I would like to observe that it's not impossible that said 'counterplay' would be checking for internal spies, rather than trying to do a bigger attack on the Empire, or whatever. I mean, if you were an elf and your ambushes on a human coastline kept getting foiled, would you think that the humans suddenly got sharper on their own? Or would you think that maybe you have a leak feeding them information?

Point here is: let's not start catastrophizing before actually talking to the Druchii further.
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I am not catastrophising. I made no comment on what the counterplay would be or how effective it would be.

The thread just has a tendency of selling the eggs before getting the hen. Or crying the death of the chicks before the eggs hatch, when genuine catastrophising happens.

So I merely noted we are not dealing with npcs who'll sink their entire fleet without complications.
 
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storryeater said:
How will this benefit the Empire more than most other uses of its fleet, given the fact that it barely has a raidable coastline anyway?
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That barely raidable coastline is just about to up its value by the fact that Kislev is building a canal that is going to allow both Empire fleets and its traders access to Sea of Claws at which point Marienburg either going to drop its tolls to more reasonable point or see its passangers try their hand at Erengrad. Eitherway increased value means more investement which means more trade and Druchii will be there to leech of or even outright sabotage good thing happening there.

Or we can convince them that raiding Empire is not worth it now so fleets can focus on Norscans and let those coastlines develop peacefully for a time. Hopefully long enough for defences to come with prosperity.

Edit: Even without all that, Druchii raids still likeley to take hundreads every year at the very least. That is not nothing.
 
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GrimTheMad said:
The most likely result is that they find whoever is doing the leaking and kill them, or leak them wrong information. (And then kill them.)
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Do you really care that druchii that is leaking gets killed? I don't.

But I don't think she would have made the offer if she didin't think that she could get away with it.
 
To me, the real advantage of getting military information from Clar Karond is that we drag them further into our schemes. Just the knowledge of their treachery is powerful information we would hold over their head. To do such a thing show quite the level of potential commitement, why are they willing to risk so much?
 
A_Somebody said:
And yes I think engaging in any Diplomacy with Druchii, even if it is just "tell us how to kill other Druchii," has a considerable chance of nuking any Nagarythe ties. Nagarythe has pretty much based it's national identity on "hates Druchii" and that's not something you really talk someone out of with rational cost analysis.
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Look, if Alith Anar can dance with Morathi on his way to stealing the Stone of Midnight, we can talk to a Dark Elf to hit more Dark Elves with cannonballs.
 
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Tasoli said:
That barely raidable coastline is just about to up its value by the fact that Kislev is building a canal that is going to allow both Empire fleets and its traders access to Sea of Claws at which point Marienburg either going to drop its tolls to more reasonable point or see its passangers try their hand at Erengrad. Eitherway increased value means more investement which means more trade and Druchii will be there to leech of or even outright sabotage good thing happening there.

Or we can convince them that raiding Empire is not worth it now so fleets can focus on Norscans and let those coastlines develop peacefully for a time. Hopefully long enough for defences to come with prosperity.

Edit: Even without all that, Druchii raids still likeley to take hundreads every year at the very least. That is not nothing.
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That... does not actually increase the value of the coastline or its raidability. It just increases the value of our ships.

Also, ships need to get manned and become battle ready, they aren't just sitting there.

And also also, I do not think we'll manage to stop the raids, we'll just kill some Druchi until the leaks are patched, at which point raids will redouble.

I'll grant that if they kill/enslave hundreds every year they should be stopped, tho.
 
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reignonyrparade said:
I mean, that sounds like it's the Druchii We've Made The Deal With's problem
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While that is true, I'll note that sacrificing our own ship to act as a pawn in an inter house Druchi conflict that has zero net benefit other than killing Druchi is not my idea of a smart play.

If it were to stop the raids or deal them a grand wound that'd be another story, but as it is, it won't be bloodless even as an ambush, so we are essentially sacrificing ships for love of the game rather than any benefit.
 
Sparsebeard said:
To me, the real advantage of getting military information from Clar Karond is that we drag them further into our schemes. Just the knowledge of their treachery is powerful information we would hold over their head. To do such a thing show quite the level of potential commitement, why are they willing to risk so much?
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Well because this isn't a big risk to them. The Druuchi response to raiders getting wiped by humans I believe can be summed up as, "skill issue." Getting outplayed by a rival house in diplomacy and spycraft? Pretty much the same. This isn't exactly leaking Malekith's invasion plans, here.

Actually, you know who would really love to be sold info on Druuchi raiding patterns? Ulthuan. Ulthuan would cackle.
 
storryeater said:
While that is true, I'll note that sacrificing our own ship to act as a pawn in an inter house Druchi conflict that has zero net benefit other than killing Druchi is not my idea of a smart play.

If it were to stop the raids or deal them a grand wound that'd be another story, but as it is, it won't be bloodless even as an ambush, so we are essentially sacrificing ships for love of the game rather than any benefit.
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When the nordland navy looks at the likely losses from the raid, and looks at the likely losses from fighting the raid, they're perfectly able to make the call about whether it's worth it or not. Even just being able to tell villages up and down the cost to bunker down as well as they can for a while is of value.
 
reignonyrparade said:
When the nordland navy looks at the likely losses from the raid, and looks at the likely losses from fighting the raid, they're perfectly able to make the call about whether it's worth it or not. Even just being able to tell villages up and down the cost to bunker down as well as they can for a while is of value.
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Sure. If the info is free. Too bad it isn't.
 
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