deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
Dwarves don't only wear steel you know. I believe most of their regular clothes are cloth, and then their hard traveling stuff is leather.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
I'd just like to follow up on another point someone made. We should expect the entirety of Grobi-Town not just to be soaking wet from the runoff from the mountains, but also covered in living mushrooms. It will be an exceptionally concentrated example of the Greenskin ecosystem. I'd imagine that buildings are continually being consumed by the fungus and the remaining mush absorbed into the swamp to be replaced by new crude dwellings of raw logs that are immediately mushroom infested.
That will be why the place lasts more than a day without burning down, because it's a mixture of living fungus and the wet wood it lives on, so the place is basically fireproofed.
I'd also be unsurprised if the fungus that will coat the buildings is an adapted part of the Greenskin ecosystem that is particularly fire resistant and structurally useful as it replaces the wood, simply because all the ecosystem works together as if designed, and as town of greenskins at part of their natural behaviour, part of their supporting living infrastructure will help fill in the gaps where realism, like fires, would otherwise intrude.
By contrast, we have confirmation that the core idea of Burning Shadows would work.
The amount she can carry might start a fire. Maybe two. Not very many, Dwarven lamp oil should be a poor accelerant compared to something like petrol as it's designed to burn slowly, at relatively low temperature, and have no explosion risk.
That will be why the place lasts more than a day without burning down, because it's a mixture of living fungus and the wet wood it lives on, so the place is basically fireproofed.
I'd also be unsurprised if the fungus that will coat the buildings is an adapted part of the Greenskin ecosystem that is particularly fire resistant and structurally useful as it replaces the wood, simply because all the ecosystem works together as if designed, and as town of greenskins at part of their natural behaviour, part of their supporting living infrastructure will help fill in the gaps where realism, like fires, would otherwise intrude.
By contrast, we have confirmation that the core idea of Burning Shadows would work.
The amount she can carry might start a fire. Maybe two. Not very many, Dwarven lamp oil should be a poor accelerant compared to something like petrol as it's designed to burn slowly, at relatively low temperature, and have no explosion risk.
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I'm not a fan of [] Plan light things on fire and kill things as it currently stands, as I think it significantly underestimates the potential problems of being on the wrong side of the fire (after setting it on the citadel side).
Yes Mathilde is immune to fire (and smoke), however there are significant other hazards. Firstly, fire is notorious for causing building to collapse as supports are weakened and burned up. In addition the Goblin town is both extremely crammed together and poorly laid out.*
This means there is a fairly good chance that we could end up with our way out blocked by buildings that have collapsed behind us; and it being extremely hard to find a new way out with the combination of the labyrinthine layout, fire collaping things, smoke and the greenskins trying to kill us.
There's also the issue of setting the whole side on fire quickly enough to prevent a break for the citadel but I think we can get help from the rangers with that.
*Edit: Also extremely poorly built, which exacerbates the collapsing issue.
Yes Mathilde is immune to fire (and smoke), however there are significant other hazards. Firstly, fire is notorious for causing building to collapse as supports are weakened and burned up. In addition the Goblin town is both extremely crammed together and poorly laid out.*
This means there is a fairly good chance that we could end up with our way out blocked by buildings that have collapsed behind us; and it being extremely hard to find a new way out with the combination of the labyrinthine layout, fire collaping things, smoke and the greenskins trying to kill us.
There's also the issue of setting the whole side on fire quickly enough to prevent a break for the citadel but I think we can get help from the rangers with that.
*Edit: Also extremely poorly built, which exacerbates the collapsing issue.
Sinsystems
Patron Librarian
That can be easily solved with our Skywalk spell that should allow us to go over most collapsed buildings.
As a note, how many people would switch to Burning Shadows if we took away the option for MAthilde to use a ritual?
The Citadel will on alert now, so the same trick probably won't work.
The Citadel will on alert now, so the same trick probably won't work.
- Location
- United States
Something to note about grobi town: it is at least partially abandoned. It is not packed wall to wall with greenskins.
the ecosystem shouldnt be that concentrated.
the ecosystem shouldnt be that concentrated.
- Location
- Austria
It's also severely weakened, as opposed to armed and fully operational Karag Lhune which was stoked to brim with goblins, doom divers and trolls.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
You... just quoted yourself and voted for your own plan.
ANother note, I think people are underplaying the necessity to advise Belegar that humans will not be fighting fit today, if they're anything like Earth humans. Drinking all night and sleeping half the day away doesn't lead to high performance. They need an extra nights sleep. And the mercenaries will know it too, and should not be keen on killing themselves by fighting hungover and with messed up circadian rhythms, even if they don't know the word.
That wasn't the impression it gace last night when it vomited out two hordes of greenskins and Kragg had to nuke one of them.
That wasn't the impression it gace last night when it vomited out two hordes of greenskins and Kragg had to nuke one of them.
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I think you may need to put the vote on a separate line for the tally to count it.
- Location
- California
The core of Burning shadows isn't the big problem I have with it. My problem is that it treats "hold off the assault for one day and kill multiple shamans" as a given.
Personally, I think that the mercs will not stick around with time to properly reflect, that this plan will put too much emphasis on Mathilde doing everything, and that expecting us to get multiple hero kills like that is wishful thinking in the extreme.
No. BoneyM has already confirmed this. We're not jury-rigging the spell. We can use the absolute standard spell in its basic form, because that basic form of the spell effects one shadow, however large it is.
- Location
- United States
Holding off for a day is critical anyway. The dwarves may be able to fight this afternoon, but the great majority of the humans will be dead on their feet and in no shape to fight. Trying to get them to fight in this condition should be what pisss them off, not waiting until they can see and stand up straight. Belegar probably doens't realise that, as he's not experienced with human weaknesses, and has only lead much smaller battles in command of dwarfs before.
It also doesn't rely on Mathilde to do everything any more than every other plan we've done so far. It leaves the dwarves to do their own thing, with Mathilde's contribution being a nice to have.
On the shamans, I don't actually really believe there are any surviving shamans given the complete lack of even an attempt to dispel Kragg the Grim, which Mathilde would have seen, I just threw that in as a sop for the people worrying at the potential for dispels.
No. I don't think Mathilde has ever seen a greenskin town, and that the standard look is dilapidated and seemingly abandoned by human standards, so she just judged wrongly, based on what she witnesses yesterday IC.
Either way, returning to your original point, a partially abandoned greenskin settlement may actually have more mushrooms, as there will be less greenskins to eat them. There were clearly enough greenskins there, as we witnessed, for there still to be a massive concentration of the ecosystem.
- Location
- Germany
My problem is more that I have no idea how Mathilde is going to find the shamans in Grobi Town. As far as I understand, it's pretty big and chaotic.
Sinsystems
Patron Librarian
Actually the fact that a lot of the greenskin buildings are uninhabited is a pretty big boon for plan Set everything on fire, as it would mean that we can put a lot more time into getting the initial blaze going without much risk and once the fire starts it will be able to grow pretty strong before the Greenskins notice.
- Location
- not actually Urk, I just liked the alliteration
It's a very good plan
I'm modifying it in light of the concerns about starting a fire and the unpredictable consequences.
[ ] Plan be sneaky - at first (OSHA approved version)
- [ ] Mathilde starts a fight between the greenskins on the far side of the caldera - try to make sure it sticks and that other groups are being lured in
- [ ] Rangers and hobbits prepare for controlled fires (firebreaks set up) with the help of the gold wizards and Panoramia, between the citadel and the greenskins.
- [ ] Set up the artillery overlooking the entrance.
- [ ] Attack the citadel with the mercenaries(faster runners so they'll arrive a little ahead) and dwarves with ranged support to suppress any greenskin archers.
- [ ] Dwarves push the attack further inwards while the cavalry disrupts attempts in the caldera to circumvent the flames
- [ ] Rangers and a reserve to either delay (if the greenskins in the caldera get their act together, muster, and go through the fires) or take over the attack with the resting mercenaries when the attacking force starts to flag.
On second thought, too many moving parts.
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- Location
- Aotearoa
Honest Mathildes Gambling Den and House of Worship house take is (350/6000), a little over 5%.
Nice deal.
Another disadvantage with the [] Plan Light Everything On Fire And Kill Things is it immediately squanders an in-control situation (using our stealth to do something to the grobi before they realise something is wrong) to try to create an out-of-control one (fire spreading everywhere). Even if it's successful- which I am unsure about- the progress of the fire will be pretty random.
I really don't think this is accurate:
I'm very opposed to waiting another day, for reasons I've explained earlier. It's a bad idea.
IMO [] Plan Burning Shadows is too complex, too protracted, and relying on Mathilde to do far too much.
Now, Dwarven explosives. They are more predictable- perhaps we can boost their likelihood of working?
Survey, MAP, Boom.
[X] Plan Go Commando
-[X] Survey and MAP the entrance from Grobitown to the Citadel, use this to generate a better set of charges to collapse it.
-[X] sneak back up to gate, plant charges, blow it up. Rangers are infiltrating to Caldera rim to overlook passage, lotus poison bolts to provide a backup plan.
--[X] if the explosion works, well, actually we're good to go. Roll up artillery to dominate the passage as the battle is underway, to further dissuade approach to the Citadel. If it's been less successful, adapt, but focus our subsequent efforts on dissuading entry to the Citadel.
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- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I think it's important to remember that we are suggesting a plan. If we suggest a plan that the others think is bad, it's not going to happen.
Plan Burning Shadows relies entirely on Mathilde's ability to scale a mere Moderately Complicated spell to full Battle Magic level. She's never cast a single Battle Magic spell before in her life. I agree that the imagery would be really metal, but to everyone else sitting at the table it sounds incredibly egotistical and risky. Remember: Kragg the Grim is sitting right next to us. Do you believe that Kragg will approve of this plan?
There are alternatives to the leading plan if you think the KISS of normal fire won't work. Plan Go Commando, for example, surveys the entrance from Grobitown to the Citadel so that our engineers can direct us where to set charges and collapse the entrance.
Edit: I guess I should put a copy of my second favorite choice here, even if I'm not voting for it.
[] Plan Go Commando
-[] Survey and MAP the entrance from Grobitown to the Citadel, use this to generate a better set of charges to collapse it.
-[] sneak back up to gate, plant charges, blow it up. Rangers are infiltrating to Caldera rim to overlook passage, lotus poison bolts to provide a backup plan.
--[] if the explosion works, well, actually we're good to go. Roll up artillery to dominate the passage as the battle is underway, to further dissuade approach to the Citadel. If it's been less successful, adapt, but focus our subsequent efforts on dissuading entry to the Citadel.
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Not if she can't start fires in the first place, or the place is so wet and fungi covered that they don't catch and spread, as seems very likely, as the town still exists despite having greenskins living in it.
I'm pretty sure that you can spot greenskin shamans a mile off because of their Aethyric presence. Also, greenskins don't let shamans who aren't in charge live inside their settlements, because of the risk of explosions. They're
Plenty of time for a dwarf to sleep of the hangover. Most of the men who've been up all night drinking very strong dwarven will be total messes for the rest of the day.
Remember that neither the skaven nor anyone else have had to time to organise themselves to do anything. They won't be ready today, they won't be ready tomorrow, it's almost certain they won't be ready next week. Skaven do not move fast when someone else has the initiative.