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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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kingreaper said:
His arrogance shows in the fact he won't even consider teaching another Runelord anything, because he is so superior to them that they are unworthy to even be his apprentice. A runelord is barely worthy to stoke his forge because they might see some of his brilliance.

He doesn't just believe he's better than other runesmiths, he believes he's so much better than them that they don't deserve the opportunity to follow in his footsteps.

It may be that this kind of arrogance is natural to old dwarves, but that doesn't stop it being arrogance.
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The next best Runelord to live spent literal century making a rune whose rough equivalent Kragg whipped out on a spot. Kragg literally forgot more about runelore than the most learned runelords ever get to know.

If Kragg was any less exacting about his standards he would have died approximately twelve centuries ago as BoneyM has said, and Karaz Ankor would have even less Runic insight than it does now, even with him hoarding most of it just to himself.

It also isn't really rooted in what i would honestly perceive as arrogance to be honest. Its not arrogance if expert craftsman looks at someone and says they are too shit to really consider going pro. Do try to remember that Kragg was born 800 years after arrival of Sigmar or so. He might've actually worked with contemporaries of Runesmiths like Alaric.
 
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pucflek said:
The dwarfs are so capable of understanding that that as a polity they still consider Druuchi to be of Ulthuan.

Like, i get what you are trying to say, i really do, but we were talking about Kragg the Grim's involvement in the Waystone project. While the general antipathy against elves isn't "BURN THE ELVES" level, it still exists and in none more strongly than in old coots like him.
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I'm pretty sure they don't. They did during the War of the Beard, but that's because elves decided that talking about Malekith's rebellion would mean losing too much face and it's better to just tell the envoys to fuck off.
 
LockedMind said:
I'm pretty sure they don't. They did during the War of the Beard, but that's because elves decided that talking about Malekith's rebellion would mean losing too much face and it's better to just tell the envoys to fuck off.
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They don't anymore no, i was just saying that they were entirely capable of spite against species as a whole without any real necessity of conflict with specific branch.

I would also like to point out that for all that Eonir were uninvolved, Laurelorn was still attacked by Dwarfs during War of Vengeance. Resident mages just disappeared the entire Throng heading there.
 
pucflek said:
They don't anymore no, i was just saying that they were entirely capable of spite against species as a whole without any real necessity of conflict with specific branch.

I would also like to point out that for all that Eonir were uninvolved, Laurelorn was still attacked by Dwarfs during War of Vengeance. Resident mages just disappeared the entire Throng heading there.
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At the time elves were a (mostly?) unified polity, and it was my understanding that Laurelorn was still part of Ulthuan (or very recently seceded?), so dawi thinking of them as part of Ulthuan is kinda excusable.
 
pucflek said:
It also isn't really rooted in what i would honestly perceive as arrogance to be honest. Its not arrogance if expert craftsman looks at someone and says they are too shit to really consider going pro.
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Does Kragg actually look at runesmiths and runelords and compare their skill to his own at their age?* Because to me what we've seen points more towards him secluding himself with his runes and ignoring the rest of the dawi as being so clearly inferior he doesn't need to consider their potential on an individual level.

*[Preferably taking into account the fact their teachers know less than his did.]
 
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kingreaper said:
Does Kragg actually look at runesmiths and runelords and compare their skill to his own at their age? Because to me what we've seen points more towards him secluding himself with his runes and ignoring the rest of the dawi as being so clearly inferior he doesn't need to consider their potential on an individual level.
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Kragg has probably long since forgotten what it's like to be a beardling. Or "just" 400 years old.

It's not pertinent information to **RUNES**
 
kingreaper said:
Does Kragg actually look at runesmiths and runelords and compare their skill to his own at their age?* Because to me what we've seen points more towards him secluding himself with his runes and ignoring the rest of the dawi as being so clearly inferior he doesn't need to consider their potential on an individual level.

*[Preferably taking into account the fact their teachers know less than his did.]
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I suppose you just kinda lose hope after a millenium of no worthy apprentices whatsoever.
 
I feel like people are mistaking 'no Grudges' with 'not disliking and not resistant to interactions'.

even without an active grudge, there is an active tension and general dislike between the two groups.

there are going to be dwarfs that refuse/ or just don't want to deal with the issues of working with elf's.

and there is going to be Enoir that don't want to work with dwarfs, the fact that this only passed after one person died means that 49% of the council was voting against the Waystone project. (Those, politics being what they are, how much was it not wanting to work with dwarfs and humans, alliances that family made voting with them, block voting or just voting no on every issue unless someone gives them something is up in the air.)

don't mistake no grudges with no issues.
 
pucflek said:
I suppose you just kinda lose hope after a millenium of no worthy apprentices whatsoever.
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I quite simply don't believe that Kragg was the most naturally talented dwarf born in that millenium by such a margin that no other dwarf compares. That there was not a single runesmith worthy to learn a single thing that their teacher didn't already know.

I don't believe that modern dwarves are born inferior to dwarves born in past centuries. But I feel like Kragg does believe that; and that is the (perceived) character flaw of his that makes him fundamentally unlikeable to me. Maybe that belief that everyone born after him is inherently inferior isn't arrogance, perhaps I've picked the wrong term, but it's a character flaw and one I don't feel like pretending I'm okay with.
 
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kingreaper said:
I quite simply don't believe that Kragg was the most naturally talented dwarf born in that millenium by such a margin that no other dwarf compares.
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Considering the fact that Kragg is, as a matter of fact, the only non-Golden age dwarf we even know of that has lived for more than a millenium up till now, i think maybe you should reconsider your opinion on "no other dwarf compares" being bullshit. Because as far as i can see, there isn't a single Runelord from his times left and the next oldest one is barely half his age.

There is also the issue of Pride. I have no doubt that someone like Thorek could make it as an apprentice for Kragg. But he would never lower himself so (if it even is possible for a recognized Runelord to become an apprentice in the first place)
 
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kingreaper said:
I quite simply don't believe that Kragg was the most naturally talented dwarf born in that millenium by such a margin that no other dwarf compares. That there was not a single runesmith worthy to learn a single thing that their teacher didn't already know.

I don't believe that modern dwarves are born inferior to dwarves born in past centuries. But I feel like Kragg does believe that; and that is the character flaw of his that makes him fundamentally unlikeable to me. Maybe that belief that everyone born after him is inherently inferior isn't arrogance, perhaps I've picked the wrong term, but it's a character flaw and one I don't feel like pretending I'm okay with.
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Watsonian:
I think it's entirely possible, even probable, that there were dwarfs born at some point during Kragg's lifespan who would have passed his standards if he had given them the chance if you don't accept the idea of generations becoming weaker. The problem is that Kragg has gained a reputation for rejecting potential apprentices, and he's only one of many runelords/smiths. Therefore, any potentially worthy students would have been snatched up by other teachers who were much more enthusiastic/geographically nearer, at which point Kragg's perfectionism kicks in and he refuses to work with anyone that isn't a blank slate. At that point my judging of Kragg's perfectionism would depend a lot on how much the other Runelords/smiths teach people who weren't their direct apprentices, but it would be undeniable that his reputation is harming his goals.

Doylist:
GW is awful at deciding if the current generations are actually factually worse than the previous generations. They really love the trope of magic fading away, but they also love having (playable, tabletop) characters that are a new generation of baddasses who are on the verge of transforming the setting forever and an undeniable improvement (in the sense of being more capable of their duties) over the generation immediately prior.

There are things like the orbs of sorcery being apparently irreplaceable and a vital resource that slowly dwindle, even while there isn't a reason for their knowledge to be lost. Stuff like enchantment being harder since there's not enough magic, but also chaos slowly creeping into the world as waystones fail and ambient magic becomes more prevalent. A lot of the time it feels like GW is going with whatever is more tragic/dark in a way that frustratingly doesn't take into account the setting as a whole.
 
pucflek said:
Considering the fact that Kragg is, as a matter of fact, the only non-Golden age dwarf we even know of that has lived for more than a millenium up till now, i think maybe you should reconsider your opinion on "no other dwarf compares" being bullshit.
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Perhaps no dwarf compares anymore, but I fear that no amount of skill and talent will stop death in it´s track forever for a warrior.

And few dwarfs are not warriors, in this day and age.

So while I agree that Kragg was most certainly among the greatest, the greatest I find to be unlikely, as luck almost certainly played a role as well.
 
SurpriseMe said:
Therefore, any potentially worthy students would have been snatched up by other teachers who were much more enthusiastic/geographically nearer, at which point Kragg's perfectionism kicks in and he refuses to work with anyone that isn't a blank slate. At that point my judging of Kragg's perfectionism would depend a lot on how much the other Runelords/smiths teach people who weren't their direct apprentices, but it would be undeniable that his reputation is harming his goals.
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I edited it into my post, but i am honestly not even sure if already taught journeymen runesmiths can have a different Master, considering the runic secrecy even amongst individual runepriests, so that could also not so much be perfectionism as much as it is the usual dwarf reticence at sharing secrets of their trade.

(And also the possibility that Kragg really is that exceptional. As i have said. There is not a single dwarf within even spitting distance of his age. Thorek is the next oldest dwarf we know and iirc he is somewhere around his eight century)
Burned_Cookie said:
Perhaps no dwarf compares anymore, but I fear that no amount of skill and talent will stop death in it´s track forever for a warrior.

And few dwarfs are not warriors, in this day and age.

So while I agree that Kragg was most certainly among the greatest, the greatest I find to be unlikely, as luck almost certainly played a role as well.
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Maybe all the Dwarfs that would've been worthy of Kraggs instruction died before their time... Sounds like a Tzeentch plot :V

More seriously, Kragg has lived for 8 dwarf lifetimes, and has been the oldest dwarf to live for at least 3 of those. I don't think statistics really have much say here because there is a seriously big pool of people that could've made it but didn't, and if Kragg could outlast them all then well, it probably isn't just luck.
 
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Being the oldest doesn't mean he was the most talented, just the most stubborn.

My understanding is that Dwarves don't live longer by being just that good, they do so by being belligerently unwilling to die.
 
Kragg being really just that good is perfectly possible I'd say. There is plenty of precedent in other races that sometimes a super-wizard is just born that way and they are way better than anyone around them, they can do things normal individuals can't even learn because they do them by being that good. Runesmiths aren't wizards but it could be that this phenomenon also applies to them.

For all we know Kragg can't even teach a bunch of the things he knows if he wanted because he doesn't know how the ancients taught it in a manner that a 'normal' Runelord could understand, all he knows is how he does it and in his case step one really is 'get gud'.
 
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Kragg seems to be mainly motivated by trying to climb the mountains of skill his ancestors reached. That's why he's so focused on Bok, even though he said he won't be able to understand it in his lifetime.
He's also really focused on finding old knowledge rather than reinventing the wheel, no matter the practicalities.

Why would such a person want another runesmith with, at best, barely equal skill and same knowledge as him? The best hope for such apprentice pushing their knowledge base would be them inventing- we know Kragg's opinion on that.

Considering his motivation, it would feel like a pointless waste of time, which could instead be used to rediscover some lost lore of the ancestors.
 
GrimTheMad said:
Being the oldest doesn't mean he was the most talented, just the most stubborn.

My understanding is that Dwarves don't live longer by being just that good, they do so by being belligerently unwilling to die.
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Yes, obviously. But Runelords do tend to be the ones that make it to the living ancestor category most often, so Thungni's gift or some sort of quality only the most talented runemakers have play some part in being able to achieve pseudo immortality.
 
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SurpriseMe said:
There are things like the orbs of sorcery being apparently irreplaceable and a vital resource that slowly dwindle, even while there isn't a reason for their knowledge to be lost.
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The Orbs of Sorcery are canonically made by Teclis and are irreplaceable because the Colleges have never had the knowledge of how to make them (and Teclis is too busy).
 
Altom said:
Don't the Druchii themselves claim Malekith to be the Rightful King of Ulthuan and themselves as the true ulthuani fighting against the usurpers?
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That is my understanding of it. Using the fact that Malekith has had spies in Ulthuan the culture isn't foreign for the druchii. If asked they would claim to recoginize Ulthuan's authority, under the rightful Phoenix King.
 
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