Warhammer Fantasy: A Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism

Reader mode
They - technically - do count as unique undead forms, yes. What with being speech-capable and what not. Horribly hungry for warmth of the living, souls, etc. but yeah. Not like 'normal' zombies or anything.
 
torroar said:
They - technically - do count as unique undead forms, yes. What with being speech-capable and what not. Horribly hungry for warmth of the living, souls, etc. but yeah. Not like 'normal' zombies or anything.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Not to mention that Eyeless manifest on their own when bodies are left out in oblast since they don't have material to burn them and the ground too frozen to bury them.

Heck, the reason they are even called Eyeless is cause when they abandon bodies out there people know they can turn into undead on their own and seek out living, so they take out their eyes so they have a much harder time finding their way back home. That means that its a natural occurrence in oblast for intelligent undead to get up on their own, at least often enough to become tradition.

That kinda shit doesn't happen normally unless you live in hugely tainted places like Sylvania. I assume this happens so often due to closeness of Chaos Wastes.
There is a tradition out in the oblast to take the dead away into the snow and leave them there, for the ground is far too frozen to be broken by shovels for a grave, and wood is too precious to waste on pyres. According to the old ways, however, the dead sometimes wake and try to find their way back to the stanitsa. To prevent this, the eyes are removed from the body so they cannot see which way to go. However, there are some restless, hungry spirits who will not let this deter them, and they return to life in their old form — though their skin is bleached white, and their eye sockets remain empty. These Undead creatures have nothing of their old personality and hunger only for the warm touch of the living. They hide their deficiency under a deep hood and prey on travellers, sucking out their souls and stealing their eyes. Everyone knows when a traveller stumbles in with empty, bleeding eye sockets, the fool has met an Eyeless One and paid dearly for his kindness.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Smart enough to hide their eyelessness and prey normally on travelers rather than just seek out populations centers.

I hate to imagine what this kind of undead is capable of if the eyes weren't removed.
 
Raichu1972 said:
I mean, that assumes that

1) Magnus knows that Alexandra is currently ruling as Queen Regent and/or knows the absolute clusterfuck of all sides that the civil war is currently.

2) Magnus knows that there is a vampire/skaven infestation and decided to send some specialists instead of assuming that Kislevites got sick of their tyrannical slaver despot and just had existing tensions explode of their own accord like everyone expected.

3) Magnus cares to actually intervene when Kislev has never been an ally of the Empire, but rather that of the Hohenzollerns. He has no reason to interfere in what otherwise appears to be a purely internal conflict with no bullshit from Chaos and other parties.

Imo it's far more likely that Agatha and Alyssa were coming back down through Kislev, saw the absolute clusterfuck it was and that Alexandra currently ruled as Regent, and badgered their mentor into sticking around to help her out.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

1. Magnus is a master of diplomacy. This has come up in the narrative as Magnus is capable of anticipating diplomacy outcomes, and generating solutions with outcomes that can be favourable for individuals (Fight Gunthar). Magnus's public track record of this, is in Freddy's wedding, where he managed to score a general win on magic users in the empire by supporting Freddy's marriage with Nat, handling the Witch Hunters who disobeyed him on sending people to the Colleges of Magic, improving diplomatic relations with nations outside the empire through actions such as pilgrimage escorting, advice on creating new organizations, making use of events to solidify his edicts and position, the fallout from the Holders of the Shore.

Overall, Magnus has shown he could be capable of anticipating Kislev's civil war. Probably not the vampires, and skaven, but the multiple factions aspect of the Kislev Civil war, with the Bohka, and Romanovs, and many other factions involved, like revolutionists? That is something Magnus likely could just figure out from whatever he knows as emperor about Kislev.

2. Rising tensions were obvious to those who payed attention to Kislev matters. The Kislev Civil War was going to happen, it just happened to occur now in 2344 IC. Amethysts are good at killing things, really good at killing things. Killing things is a useful skill in civil wars.

3. Kislev is the speedbump of the Old World, a competent Kislev willing to meet the Empire on the diplomacy table, and improve itself, is something Magnus should favor enough to invest anything into it. As for Kislev never being an ally of the empire, that's untrue in this quest.

The Blue Steel Concordant - a mutual treaty of binding alliance between the Empire and Kislev, signed by all Elector Counts, approval by other Elector's. Credited to effort of Frederick von Hohenzollern, brother-in-law of Tzarina Kattarin Romanov, signed in the year 2325. Mutual military aid, increased trade, exchanges in military forces for mutual usage, reduced Gryphon Legion prices. +Prestige

The Empire signed The Blue Steel Concordant with Kislev, it is not a Ostland and Kislev exclusive agreement. Because Magnus is emperor of the group who signed the thing that binds the Empire to Kislev, he does have a reason to do something. Doesn't look good when diplomatically the boss fails to participate in the agreement the company agreed to.

===

The point of those points is how perceptions can be written in the public eye, not that Magnus did have something to do with the three being in Kislev.

Of course, the best reason the three are in Kislev is to see the eyeless, as they are technically still on their undead catalogue of the world. Through border limits and rising internal Kislev tensions, no undead shall go uncatalogued! They are dedicated.
 
Last edited:
torroar said:
There's a perfectly technically acceptable reason for them to go to Kislev rather than straight back to Altdorf, because it relates to their original mission statement of global undead manifestation examinations.

Kislev have the Eyeless, after all.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
So you are telling me that the Twins are willing to fight in a civil war, just to complete their research? What an amazing show of academic integrity! Truly their dedication to their mission knows no bounds. :V
 
Altom said:
So you are telling me that the Twins are willing to fight in a civil war, just to complete their research? What an amazing show of academic integrity! Truly their dedication to their mission knows no bounds. :V
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
anyone who says something else are clearly nothing but bad faith actors.

After all, there is no possible other reason for them to involve themselves in this civil war
torroar said:
Star fort talk can stop for now. Can percolate in brains for now.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I apologize if I was annoying. I hope it was at least informative?
 
Last edited:
Altom said:
So you are telling me that the Twins are willing to fight in a civil war, just to complete their research? What an amazing show of academic integrity! Truly their dedication to their mission knows no bounds. :V
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Well they have to get their specimens from somewhere.
  • Trait: Experienced Surgeon - Fascinated by the human body and how it dies, and scholars of both the Gaelenic and the Mechanical School of Thought with regards to anatomy. Have closely studied the treatises of the Jade Dragon of the Wu Dynasty, and learned even more as a result. (+3 Learning)
  • Trait: Exceptionally Experienced Dissectionist – Observed and partook in the study and dissection of some of the worst that Sylvania had to offer, from vampires, to ghouls, to terrorgheists. And loved it. To study anatomy as they have is to know death, intimately, and also how to deal it. To learn anatomy without the restrictions of the Cult of Morr is to know it even further... (+3 Martial)
  • Trait: Macabre Interests - Enjoys considerations of the macabre, both in conversation and in mental contemplation. This is more than a little off putting for most people. (-1 Diplomacy)
Can't just let those academic interests fall to the side. Good thing that a civil war provides a large number of volunteers to hone their skills on.
 
Last edited:
Czes said:
Well they have to get their specimens from somewhere.
  • Trait: Experienced Surgeon - Fascinated by the human body and how it dies, and scholars of both the Gaelenic and the Mechanical School of Thought with regards to anatomy. Have closely studied the treatises of the Jade Dragon of the Wu Dynasty, and learned even more as a result. (+3 Learning)
  • Trait: Exceptionally Experienced Dissectionist – Observed and partook in the study and dissection of some of the worst that Sylvania had to offer, from vampires, to ghouls, to terrorgheists. And loved it. To study anatomy as they have is to know death, intimately, and also how to deal it. To learn anatomy without the restrictions of the Cult of Morr is to know it even further... (+3 Martial)
  • Trait: Macabre Interests - Enjoys considerations of the macabre, both in conversation and in mental contemplation. This is more than a little off putting for most people. (-1 Diplomacy)
Can't just let those academic interests fall to the side. Good thing that a civil war provides a large number of volunteers to hone their skills on.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Makes me wonder, as one of those traits does say surgeon, do they actually have the skills to perform mundane healing?
 
Stephen9001 said:
Makes me wonder, as one of those traits does say surgeon, do they actually have the skills to perform mundane healing?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Should be. Definitely brings up the question of army doctors in the Empire forces and possible cooperation with Jade Wizards. Hm... The Cult of Shallya probably takes care of most of that?

Hard to say how much medical research takes place outside of the Cults and how proliferated doctors actually are in light of this.

Healing is limited in scale, duration, endurance and number of wizards, so you we will definitely not see doctors phased out for superior magical treatment and I can imagine that the reduced losses might encourage a stronger focus on surgeons and other things. Just not sure whether there are institutions to teach them.

Would definitely fall under a lot of scrutiny.
 
mmgaballah said:
there are actual proper-ish (for the times) medical institutions in Araby that tech stuff like surgery and conduct actual medical research , though none in the empire
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
To be fair, for good reasons. When most of those people dig up graveyards and knowingly or unknowingly assist upcoming Necromancers, then you get a bit antsy about letting the common man cut open his fellow citizens.

Both regions might have to deal with Undead, but to my knowledge the Necromancers and Vampires within the Empire have always been much more active in their designs against the living.

Do the Tomb Kings raise the dead? (In a manner similar to the Von Carsteins?)

Given their cultural roots, I suspect that it's their sleep which is constantly being disturbed by the living, instead of the other way around.
 
AllenWalker said:
apologize if I was annoying. I hope it was at least informative?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

No worries, s'all good.

Czes said:
Hm... The Cult of Shallya probably takes care of most of that?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Not quite. 'Modern' Medicine exists, but the Cult of Shallya does not generally include overmuch command or control on things such as surgery. This has come up before, in fact:

torroar said:
Not quite. There are organizations of barber-surgeons/physicians which exist in the Old World, as well as dueling theories of medicinal consideration. Specifically, faith vs. science, as stated in the WHRP Companion on medical things, pg. 53 and onward. Before the Black Plague in 1111 IC, the most prevalent method was based on old elven texts left behind when they largely left the Old World.

Gaelenic Philosophy said:
During the first millennium of the Empire, the Elven texts were expanded upon by hundreds and thousands of classical scholars. The classification of herbs and ailments was collated into a Byzantine hierarchical system, most famously collected into the gigantic Principia Herbologium, but no scholar truly extended beyond the principles of those original texts. These focused on observing a patient's colour, temperature and temperament, and then treating him with the appropriate tincture, powder or salve. The "Gaelenic" philosophy, as it eventually became known, likens the human body to a seedling, needing only the right balance of nutrients to grow strong. This mindset was the core of all Imperial medicine until two events changed the Empire forever.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The first was the Black Plague, which herbal medicines flatly failed at. People saw it as Chaos itself, and rather than burning it out or praying it away, doctors sought to cure and to a man failed. Worse, the dead people rose up again as undead. That ain't something no herb knowledge they had could cure. Plus, necromancers were everywhere, and they were doing what necromancers do, delving into flesh and bone. Specifically "For the first time, the temple of the body was thrown open, and as these dark sorcerers made it their unholy playground, they also learned a great deal about anatomy." (Companion, pg. 54)

Mechanicals Philosophy said:
Soon after came the Tilean renaissance, and the works of Leonardo of Miragliano brought a new appreciation for engineering. From this arose a new paradigm of thought, one in conflict with Gaelen's theories and the practices that stemmed from them. Where Gaelen saw the body as sacred and inviolate, to be nurtured as a whole, never cut apart, the 'Mechanicals' saw the body as nothing more than a giant machine made of many cogs; to throw open such a machine was as natural as examining the workings of a clock or millwheel, and to cut and amputate as natural as tightening a screw. Of course, many doctors could see elements of truth in both sides, and today there are very few that will never perform amputations, or refuse to see the value in holistic theories. There remain some, however, for whom the question is one of morality and even faith, and every student inherits one or the other stance from his tutor or college. As a result, the Gaelenic/Mechanical split continues to characterise modern medicine.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Obviously I don't want to just rip from the whole book, so I'll summarize the rest. A lot of people in the Empire see such studying and knowledge as Mechanical learning would require to be against Morr's will, as they're desecrating the body rather than immediately interring it in a Garden. Any act of dissection, for learning or otherwise, is a crime punishable by death across the entire Empire. For reals. Obviously, some surgeons/doctors pursue such a thing in secret, because of the knowledge. One of the most comprehensive texts on anatomy that exists in the Old World was written by necromancers, The Flayed Man and The Creeping Flesh being supremely prized and utterly suppressed even in the modern day. Lots of necromancers started out as doctors just wanting to learn more about the body...

Shallyans, for their part, don't necessarily do any of that. What they believe in is the reduction of suffering, mercy, the reduction of pain, and while that takes the form of soft clothing, warm bedding, full bellies, etc. it does not mean being experts at surgery. They believe in aiding those actively tormented, not going out and seeking others who might require aid. Painkillers, rather than vaccines, if you want a medical metaphor for it. Furthermore, rather than do surgery, their healers might pray to Shallya for her aid instead, though some do surgical things as well. Overall, however, there is a clear division between Shallyans and actual professional doctors, the latter of whom do not always love Shallyans taking potential patients or things like that.

On Florence Nightingale, they have something call 'dove fancying', when a patient falls in love with their career. So, you know, an interesting tidbit there.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

And additionally:

torroar said:
Mechanicals is the new one: The body is nothing more than a meat machine made of cogs, throw open the machine, examine it. Figure out how the parts work, amputation, etc.

So, here's the thing though. Mechanicals are steadily on the rise in the Old World in doctorly philosophy, and even then most doctors acknowledge that it's not like Gaelenic is totally wrong in everything, there's some good parts. Except for in one place.

The Empire.

In the Empire, despite Tilea being the heart of the Cult of Morr for the Old World in canon, is SUPREMELY anti-Mechanical. See it as a total violation of Morr's will. After death, gotta go into the Garden ASAP. Any human dissection to study it is NECROMANCY and punishable by DEATH. The medical community collectively agrees that this is bullshit, and go outside legal bounds to test bodies to learn more in the hopes of helping more people in the long run with that knowledge. This has created a grave robbing industry that is literally quoted as 'one of the most profitable criminal occupations to be found'. It's also fertile ground for hidden necromancers, or having people whoopsie their way into being necromancers, and so on.

So...yeah. AA are supremely well versed in Morrite theology. That does not, necessarily, confer total unwavering blind acceptance and faith in said theology.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Generally, the main thing is that the Cult of Shallya believe in comfort and what not. Wiping you down with a cold cloth, feeding you, keeping you in a nice warm blanket, and praying over you - which, this being Mallus, works sometimes with sheer divine prayer power.

They do not necessarily believe in cutting someone open with a saw to remove something, or perform amputations, or whatever, because such things could constitute causing pain to the patient which is the opposite of their usual philosophy. In the Tome of Salvation there's even a grumbling bit:

"They're just sneaky, manipulative politicians who steal business
from honest folk. Someone should expose them for the frauds
they are."
—Master Augustus Limmerskind, Altdorf Doctor

So there is, while not necessarily actual friction between them and those considered Doktors or Physicians or whatever, they are not themselves necessarily perfectly aligned either. It's more likely you've got the latter group who, sure, pray to Shallya and what not, but are not themselves actually members of the Order of the Bleeding Heart. So in a large army camp, you've likely got the general cultists, like 'The Shallyans and the Morrites' who care for the wounded living and dying/dead, but you've also got the armies Barber-Surgeons and so on at the same time.

And just to make sure nothing gets interpreted incorrectly, Master Limmerskind does not represent all physicians/doktors, just a guy who's probably mad that more people go to the Shallyans than him because they're perfectly capable of providing reasonable treatment on their own. Anyone who wants to try and just take the WHRP companion as a source instead of all the others should probably not do that:

torroar said:
I was not using him as a basis for the overall relationship between doktors/physicians and the Cult of Shallya throughout the entire Old World, I was using him as a single small point to demonstrate that there can be friction between doktors/physicians and the Cult of Shallya. At no point was I deriding the Cult as incapable of healing or treating things as compared to others. They run asylums, and of course they're capable of treating people to a reasonable extent. A lot of people prefer them greatly over doktors/physicians, and that's generally fine, because they do a reasonable amount of good work. Not every single Priestess of Shallya is capable of calling upon the Divine Lore, but they still manage to run asylums and sick houses that take appreciable care of people, to the point of being the ones to help petition the Emperor to create/manifest a better set of standards for said asylums for the better treatment of the mentally ill.

At no point did I say they were without knowledge about things like hygiene. They oppose Nurgle significantly, of course they know a lot about ways to defy him, including various sorts of treatments, things like nutrition and hygiene and general herbology and various kinds of medicines. I didn't say that they didn't?? At zero points did I say they were utterly ignorant about medicine. At zero points did I say that anyone should take that single quote as the greater feeling of the medical non-Shallya Cultist practitioner. And that they were differences amongst the Cultists, like there are in any Cult. There are some Shallyans who would weep but help amputate someone's overly infected arm to help save them, and there are others who would not do so. That's all that was being said there??? That there would be differences depending on the Shallyans in question depending on the treatments required?

I don't just use the Companion. I use the Tome of Salvation, I use Archives of the Empire II which discusses their hospices/places of specific treatments and specialties from mental disorders to various kinds of diseases, and so on.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
Last edited:
torroar said:
No worries, s'all good.



Not quite. 'Modern' Medicine exists, but the Cult of Shallya does not generally include overmuch command or control on things such as surgery. This has come up before, in fact:



And additionally:



Generally, the main thing is that the Cult of Shallya believe in comfort and what not. Wiping you down with a cold cloth, feeding you, keeping you in a nice warm blanket, and praying over you - which, this being Mallus, works sometimes with sheer divine prayer power.

They do not necessarily believe in cutting someone open with a saw to remove something, or perform amputations, or whatever, because such things could constitute causing pain to the patient which is the opposite of their usual philosophy. In the Tome of Salvation there's even a grumbling bit:

"They're just sneaky, manipulative politicians who steal business
from honest folk. Someone should expose them for the frauds
they are."
—Master Augustus Limmerskind, Altdorf Doctor

So there is, while not necessarily actual friction between them and those considered Doktors or Physicians or whatever, they are not themselves necessarily perfectly aligned either. It's more likely you've got the latter group who, sure, pray to Shallya and what not, but are not themselves actually members of the Order of the Bleeding Heart. So in a large army camp, you've likely got the general cultists, like 'The Shallyans and the Morrites' who care for the wounded living and dying/dead, but you've also got the armies Barber-Surgeons and so on at the same time.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

If the problem of the Cult of Shaylla (or at least some parts of it) with surgeons is that they cause pain would better anesthetics help with that? Or is it a matter of principle 'there can never be a justification for causing pain to the patient'?
 
Hmm! Possible varies between different Shallyans, I think. Anesthetics exist in Warhammer, in various fashions, the most primitive/common is something like taking a nice big swig of an alcohol or something, but they also have various poultices for healing and what not that likely include numbing effects depending on the poultice. Various other potions and what not. Shallyans are not immune to having differing opinions after all, whether it's on accepting money at all, being one of their super ascetics who believe in basically being in discomfort/pain themselves, and those who believe that there should straight up not be happiness in such a miserable world, while there are also others who disagree with them, that anything which doesn't mess with their ability to do their good works is fine, etc.

So, in the grand scheme of things, I'd say it depends.
 
Yeah, Shallyans can have differing opinions like any cult, its just you don't see their disagreements often since they tend to be passive and non-violent about it since major tenants of their goddess. You don't see them doing holy wars about their differing opinions.

Sure most would love medical advances that help reduce pain and help heal people better.
 
Massgamer said:
its just you don't see their disagreements often since they tend to be passive and non-violent about it
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
And now I can't help but imagine conflicts within the Cult of Shallya to go down like a smear campaign between some particularly vicious high school girls.

Not sure I would want to make any of Feddies descendants experience that.
 
*sigh*

So literally the thing I was just coming, just this very second, to post was to note that the reason that the sisters are such accomplished surgeons is because they use the wind of Shyish to minutely tell points/causes of death depending on where they're doing surgery and cuttings, watching how the Wind interacts with the person, so that as it weakens its grip the person is healthier/stronger/further from death.

Cool. Cool.

And that they may or may not have examined the Jade Dragon's medical treatsies and books done over the course of centuries of examining human anatomy. <- this was going to come up at a later time.

But I guess there's no point in trying to reveal things at a later time to show off a sense of surprise and mystery.

Awesome. I love it when things I thought would be cool and unique get to stop being that way through no control of my own.

I'd ask you to straight up delete your post, but what's the point? I've asked, so many times, for things in other quests not to be brought in here, for years, and I've given various reasons, but who cares.
 
Last edited:
torroar said:
*sigh*

So literally the thing I was just coming, just this very second, to post was to note that the reason that the sisters are such accomplished surgeons is because they use the wind of Shyish to minutely tell points/causes of death depending on where they're doing surgery and cuttings, watching how the Wind interacts with the person, so that as it weakens its grip the person is healthier/stronger/further from death.

Cool. Cool.

And that they may or may not have examined the Jade Dragon's medical treatsies and books done over the course of centuries of examining human anatomy. <- this was going to come up at a later time.

But I guess there's no point in trying to reveal things at a later time to show off a sense of surprise and mystery.

Awesome. I love it when things I thought would be cool and unique get to stop being that way through no control of my own.

I'd ask you to straight up delete your post, but what's the point? I've asked, so many times, for things in other quests not to be brought in here, for years, and I've given various reasons, but who cares.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
just thread ban the repeat annoyers. its your thread, you're allowed to just say 'I want them out'.

you have no obligation to people that can't/won't take a hint. even if they 'technically' haven't broken site rules.
 
Last edited:
Moving on from topic a bit, I wonder how Verena and her cultists view study of medicine and such considering her domain of knowledge and science.

I would not be surprised if surgeons and such down south pray to her during their studies of human bodies.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Back
Top