Well Games Workshop were very heavily influenced by 2000AD Comics and vice versa, so maybe they intended to introduce Dhampir like Bloodrayne at some point and then just forgot to do so?
 
Heh, might be amusing if he goes after the Chosen of Khaine in this battle.

I'm now pleasantly reminded of how in another quest Wallach ended up intruding the wedding of a vampire lord the PC was confronting only for the PC, Wallach and the other vampire lord to team up against the sudden Slaaneshi daemon summoning that invaded the other vampire lord's palace. Thank you:)
 
From the earlier link about Melissa:
"She was transformed into a vampire when her coach was stopped by a brigand who wanted more than money [1a] - a barbaric, wild haired monster of the bloodline of Belda the Melancholy who killed her parents and turned her.[2]"

I don't have the book myself, but I took it to mean that the barbaric, wild haired monster killed her parents and turned her, and that said monster was of the bloodline of Belda the Melancholy.

Whoops! Yeah, that's a misread on my part, personally.

So that'd make it be...

1. Neferata
2. Belda the Melancholy (possibly being a Nehekharan herself who was turned by Neferata in the early days, or might well have been a true daughter of Neferata who was turned or whatever, it doesn't matter)
3. A barbaric, wild-haired monster who wanted 'more than money' and, uh, killed parents and turned a 12 year old...bleh.
4. Melissa, who has turned 100~ other vamps, and is totes proud about it and has directly defied Neferata on the matter of siring.
5. Chandanac
6. Genevieve
7. Johanna

Hoofa, yeah, guess they're down there, huh? Makes the 3rd Generation Rogue thing still work, i.e. generations of Rogues. But man, that also makes Johanna quite thin-blooded.

Or, at least at first I guess. Vampire War trilogy showed with Kruger, IIRC, how some vampires are capable of leapfrogging upwards in power and strength regardless of siring times/generations, I guess. Then again he was sired by Vlad directly...eh, I think the point still works.

I just want to add, according to the Warhammer wiki, Pavel is Kattarin's great-great grandson

Oh man! It really doesn't matter at all! Meaning it's perfectly fine and normal, and NONE of the childbearing discussion was necessary?!

I just let an audible 'fuck' out loud, gah.

All of this was avoidable if I'd read the wiki entry more tightly. HOW did I miss the great-great-grand part and not the son part after all this time?!

That's wild of me.

Well Games Workshop were very heavily influenced by 2000AD Comics and vice versa, so maybe they intended to introduce Dhampir like Bloodrayne at some point and then just forgot to do so?

Evidently. Because apparently, UTTERLY disregarding the now pointless Pavel discussion, there have been approximately 0 special anythings about anything about people born of vampires. No great heroes or villains, no nothing. So...guess it's just a stillborn concept like you said.
 
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Hmm. There's an idea there, maybe.
Yeah, it would actually fit. The living person "material" would provide enough of a link for a soul to form. It would also explain why so few do it, because absolute majority of vampires see mortals only as food.

The other potential answer that i was thinking about while having a dinner is the history of the relationship between Vlad and Isabella, or rather the implications of thereof. Now i didn't read any novel so i have no idea if this has been adressed somewhere, but the fact that Isabella actually needed to put some elbow grease on to convince Vlad to turn her, despite them being madly in love, seems to (to me) imply that being a Vampire kind of sucks. Or at least, its not something you would just inflict on a person you love very much, even preferring to be parted from them if it came to it.

Loving couples usually also love their children. So now you have two vampires who sired a mortal child, love it, and have the fact that it will either waste away in blink of an eye, or they will have to turn it into undead abomination as well, haunting them.

Thats obviously lot of supposition on my side, i admit, but i could see that being a potential factor in deciding to not go the biological route.
 
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Yeah, it would actually fit. The living person "material" would provide enough of a link for a soul to form. It would also explain why so few do it, because absolute majority of vampires see mortals only as food.

The other potential answer that i was thinking about while having a dinner is the history of the relationship between Vlad and Isabella, or rather the implications of thereof. Now i didn't read any novel so i have no idea if this has been adressed somewhere, but the fact that Isabella actually needed to put some elbow grease on to convince Vlad to turn her, despite them being madly in love, seems to (to me) imply that being a Vampire kind of sucks. Or at least, its not something you would just inflict on a person you love very much, even preferring to be parted from them if it came to it.

Loving couples usually also love their children. So now you have two vampires who sired a mortal child, love it, and have the fact that it will either waste away in blink of an eye, or they will have to turn it into undead abomination as well.

Thats obviously lot of supposition on my side, i admit, but i could see that being a potential factor in deciding to not go the biological route.
Considering how big he was on spreading vampirism and making an Empire ruled by vampires, I'm not so sure.

Perhaps it was more he knew there was no turning back and wanted her to have what she could of what would be a much shorter existence.
 
Considering how big he was on spreading vampirism and making an Empire ruled by vampires, I'm not so sure.

Perhaps it was more he knew there was no turning back and wanted her to have what she could of what would be a much shorter existence.
Well yes, sure, but he didn't care about them. He did care about Isabella thought. Its important to remember that Vlad was a monster. He could, and indeed did, love. But that did not spare those around him who did not belong into the incredibly narrow category of people that had a place in his cold, withered, unbeating heart.
 
I am not sure what part of "i have only ever loved one person enough to give some consideration to the fact that being a vampire might not be swell for her, specifically" can i emphasize more to make myself clearer.
 
Really? Were the same sources brought up? Trying to find it now.

Don't know. It's been literal years. At some point there was talk of how Johanna was with her chosen husband and the thread went on a side-tangent about whether vampires can have kids. If I'm remembering it correctly.
 
Don't know. It's been literal years. At some point there was talk of how Johanna was with her chosen husband and the thread went on a side-tangent about whether vampires can have kids. If I'm remembering it correctly.

This has been a discussion that has been had multiple times on multiple different threads. I literally found that it was page 40 who mentioned it by looking for an older argument about this.
 
I'm curious about the mechanics behind all of this. Just what were the dice rolls behind the scenes? Who did the best and the worst?

Every organization involved got their own rolls, per turn/half-turn/more depending on the intensity of the actions.

As I've mentioned in the past, I roll Kislev as if it were its own separate Dynasty Quest, i.e. they have an Action Economy based around Martial/Diplomacy/Stewardship/Research/Intrigue/Personal. I just don't bother writing out the whole thing because...why on earth would I subject myself to that.

HOWEVER, as a result of it being a full on Nation-Level Dynasty Quest, they have additional Actions Per Turn, as well as National Level Council stuff, an additional table which Ostland does not have access to.

As you might imagine, Alexandra heads the Intrigue Section of the Kislev Quest.

HOWEVER, as also noted for Ostland, being the main point of the quest, multiple factions are allowed to do their own work. And mechanically, also not only get to do rolls for their own operations, but to conceal said operations, on occasion.

For instance, Ostland has an ongoing Intrigue action which is a trade war, yes? It took an action to get into Marienburg, then another separate action to start operations properly. With caveats for critical successes or failures, yeah?

But also noted, on occasion, are the opponents in said trade war doing things in Ostland. Basically a background roll series vs. background rolls, for Kislev.

The Lahmians, being Lahmians, have a very high bonus to their rolls, coupled with bonuses from other actions taken previously to build those bonuses. The Yellow Fang, being one of the more secretive groups, failed their rolls/Lahmians succeeded their rolls by enough that they were subverted without them knowing. Therefore they had a penalty, going forward, to discovering said subversion while simultaneously gaining Lahmian bonuses to their (Yellow Fang) rolls to subvert the Humble Ones and Prosecutors of Justice. Who, themselves, once subverted, by way of success on the part of the Lahmians->Yellow Fang/Failure To Discover Said Subverting, gained, again, the Lahmian Bonuses to their own now directed Intrigue Efforts.

The Kislev Quest, for their part, has to choose their action economy as well, and in their case, were focusing on suppressing/eliminating any and all Chaos-tainted/still worshipping Dolgans amongst the immigrants and targeting the Bohka in different ways - subverting Bohka mercenary contract making attempts, targeting Bohka supply lines, outright attempted assassinations and poisonings, attempting to break down relationships between the Bohka and subordinate nobility, between the Bohka and the Ungols, and so on.

The kicker is that they were VERY successful in repelling vampiric infiltration attempts in Kislev City, early on. And, after that point, the Lahmians took a step back and took the long way around to fucking about.

This goes back to a discussion we've had in the thread before, specifically to the Trade Package. In which the fact of the matter is - if the enemy succeeds on their Intrigue Rolls, guess what?

You're not going to necessarily somehow see them coming when they come for you. There are measures that can be put in place, like on the Front Page, anti-sabotage efforts, etc, which effectively act as constant Penalties/rolls for you against to the specific thing they were built to go against.

Like this one -> Anti-Industrial Espionage Upkeep

That's a flat penalty to enemy Intrigue Rolls in general, if any are made, and potentially depending on the action in question an outright full background roll to discover something happening before it happens.

So anti-vampiric work is ongoing, yeah? But NOT, necessarily, as much effort is being put into going after these lesser, more 'ignorable' groups like the Prosecutors and Humble Ones.

So they literally subverted/circled around the protections that they put in place.

That I put in place. Against myself. Because obviously myself being myself as Kattarin myself would defend against the vampiric threat after seeing it in the Vampire War I was running as myself so defenses have to be made. But how could I expect myself to change the game on myself without myself being aware, and going behind my own back to myself in the smaller Cults so that I could attack myself in an unexpected manner that I wasn't expecting myself to use, myself of all people? Because obviously I would attack myself, I have to go after myself, I am the Ur-Enemy force, I am the narrative of bad things in the story which have to be used against myself, who is the pseudo-controlling mind protagonist of myself being the NPC self that is me, with the family of me, generated by me, against me, to sabotage myself except for the ones that aren't going to because that's not what I would do if I were me.

Anyway, if someone does good on Intrigue, you're just going to have to deal with a dagger appearing in your back. Cause that's how someone succeeding on being sneaky just works sometimes.
 
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HOW did I miss the great-great-grand part and not the son part after all this time?!
Because the wiki page used to say Pavel was Kattarin's son until less than a month ago, which seems to be where everyone got it from. Having checked the edit history of Kattarin's page, it previously cited Night's Dark Masters pg. 12 as the source for Pavel being Kattarin's son, but when I went to check that it only said this about Pavel:
An alliance lead by Tsarevich Pavel finally dealt with Kattarin. Her frozen corpse is still on display in the Frost Palace as a warning to other Vampires.
Nothing about him being her son. Now, historically 'Tsarevich' was a title bestowed upon the sons of the Tsar, and I assume that's where whoever wrote the wiki got the idea, but it was also used for the heir apparent, and Kislev is not beholden to the strict historical meaning of the word anyway. It seems more reasonable that Pavel was her distant descendant who at the time was legally her heir, than that she carried a normal baby to term as a vampire.

According to the edit history somebody edited Kattarin's wiki page in 24th of december 2022 changing it to great-great-grandson, now citing the the Drachenfels novel which I don't have so I can't check the veracity of the source, but it does make more sense than Pavel being her son in the first generation.

But even without the novel you could just say Kattarin only became a vampire late in her rule (Night's Dark Masters says she was able to keep her rule after she became a Vampire, implying she was already Tsarina). Or that he wasn't her son, the title was only added retroactively to coverup his ascension to the throne. Or that Tsarevich just meant heir, not literally her son in the first generation.

There's lots of ways to interpret the ambiguity of the situation that don't involve vampire babies.
 
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Because the wiki page used to say Pavel was Kattarin's son until less than a month ago, which seems to be where everyone got it from. Having checked the edit history of Kattarin's page, it previously cited Night's Dark Masters pg. 12 as the source for Pavel being Kattarin's son, but when I went to check that it only said this about Pavel:

Nothing about him being her son. Now, historically 'Tsarevich' was a title bestowed upon the sons of the Tsar, and I assume that's where whoever wrote the wiki got the idea, but it was also used for the heir apparent. It seems more reasonable that Pavel was her distant descendant who at the time was legally her heir, than that she carried a normal baby to term as a vampire.

According to the edit history somebody edited Kattarin's wiki page in 24th of december 2022 changing it to great-great-grandson, now citing the the Drachenfels novel which I don't have so I can't check the veracity of the source, but it does make more sense than Pavel being her son in the first generation.

But even without the novel you could just say Kattarin only became a vampire late in her rule (Night's Dark Masters says she was able to keep her rule after she became a Vampire, implying she was already Tsarina). Or that he wasn't her son, the title was only added retroactively to coverup his ascension to the throne. Or that Tsarevich just meant heir, not literally her son in the first generation.

There's lots of ways to interpret the ambiguity of the situation that don't involve vampire babies.
Ahh, well that explains it.
 
Well it's good to know I wasn't going fully senile, cause I swore it did say son at some point...and it did!

I too have also not read the Drachenfels novel.

As it is, I choose the path of...neutrality. Maybe it did or didn't happen the way it might or might not have gone.

Either way, the most important component, for now, is that Kattarin managed 156 years of rule, and I simply choose to believe that at least half of that was spent as a vampire during which neither Kislev nor the Empire suddenly went 'argle bargle vamps bad' and it was just power hungry regular heart-beating living folk who got sad about their ambitions potentially going nowhere...plus a descendant of hers named Pavel, plus some irritated Lahmians who did not like that she - Kattarin - was having nothing to do with Neferata.

And that clearly a lot is different between canon Kattarin and quest Kattarin.
 
That I put in place. Against myself. Because obviously myself being myself as Kattarin myself would defend against the vampiric threat after seeing it in the Vampire War I was running as myself so defenses have to be made. But how could I expect myself to change the game on myself without myself being aware, and going behind my own back to myself in the smaller Cults so that I could attack myself in an unexpected manner that I wasn't expecting myself to use, myself of all people? Because obviously I would attack myself, I have to go after myself, I am the Ur-Enemy force, I am the narrative of bad things in the story which have to be used against myself, who is the pseudo-controlling mind protagonist of myself being the NPC self that is me, with the family of me, generated by me, against me, to sabotage myself except for the ones that aren't going to because that's not what I would do if I were me.
Are you ok?
 
That I put in place. Against myself. Because obviously myself being myself as Kattarin myself would defend against the vampiric threat after seeing it in the Vampire War I was running as myself so defenses have to be made. But how could I expect myself to change the game on myself without myself being aware, and going behind my own back to myself in the smaller Cults so that I could attack myself in an unexpected manner that I wasn't expecting myself to use, myself of all people? Because obviously I would attack myself, I have to go after myself, I am the Ur-Enemy force, I am the narrative of bad things in the story which have to be used against myself, who is the pseudo-controlling mind protagonist of myself being the NPC self that is me, with the family of me, generated by me, against me, to sabotage myself except for the ones that aren't going to because that's not what I would do if I were me.

This feels straight up like a convoluted Tzenntch ploy.

Or that meme ( I forgot the game, medieval?) of where a minister prevented an assassination of himself by arresting himself as he was the culprit.
 
I am not sure what part of "i have only ever loved one person enough to give some consideration to the fact that being a vampire might not be swell for her, specifically" can i emphasize more to make myself clearer.
Alternative theory: He could've thought vampirism was great in abstract, but been afraid that the Dhar would've smothered her love for him.
 
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