Imperious
Without the sun of my life
The line at page 40 does seem to say that most vampires don't see the point in birth rather then the blood kiss.
Warhammer Fantasy: A Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism
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The line at page 40 does seem to say that most vampires don't see the point in birth rather then the blood kiss.
See that's another thing! Absolutely! Those two are one of the most famous couples in all of Warhammer, like, true sincere if macabre love! If they could have had regular children, I have to imagine they would have? Right? And if Vlad is, himself, meant to be 1st Generation too, then...you know? S'weird, is all I'm saying.
Though Isabella seemed plenty happy with her 'children of the night' in the wolves and bats and other lesser Von Carsteins, I suppose, so that might have covered her more maternal instincts in that regard.
Eh...I guess. Might have been a reach on my part. It's just a weird thing to contemplate overall, is all I'm saying. You'd think it would have come up a lot more at some point, you know? Like, 'Beware, for that is a true Daughter of Neferata! True royalty amongst the Lahmians!' Or some story or another about an ambitious non-vamp but presumably vamped later child of Neferata doing something? Somewhere?
I mean, it doesn't really seem to matter very much directly ATM, I guess. But it's an interesting diversion to puzzle over.
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Yeah, even if was a thing and they learned it was a thing neither Johanna nor Genevieve seem like they'd have the time or interest to raise a child with their focus on mastering themselves.
And at this point if they were the Lahmians would probably have dangled it in front of Johanna as they did the drinking of dragons.
And at this point if they were the Lahmians would probably have dangled it in front of Johanna as they did the drinking of dragons.
Imperious
Without the sun of my life
There are likely to be natural born daughters of Neferata even if she did lose the ability to give birth after becoming a vampire though. If she did become infertile those would still be around, and still unmentioned, having been born before their mother drank from the Elixir.
An alternative is that a vampire can create children, but that a person with a soul needs to be involved. Two vampires would be out of luck.
Well yeah, I figured that much, with the whole 'cousins, daughters, and even grand-daughters of Neferatem' reference in the Liber Necris. That's why I was puzzling over the matter, what with the whole children and sires and gets and 'children of the night' and so on terminologies mixing around so much when it comes to vampires.
S'why my brain did the 'whguh' when trying to think about vampires having children the regular way.
Hmm. There's an idea there, maybe.
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I think I get what you're saying.
As for how a souled being could come about from the products of bodies cut off from the Aethyr...
It could be that the soul seeps in from the environment like you said. If reincarnation is a thing at all in this setting that would make sense. But reincarnation or not, Aethyr stuff seeps in, and boom you have a soul.
Also, once the sperm meets the egg, that's something new physically. It could be true in the metaphysical sense as well. The zygote/eventual fetus is not cut off from the Aethyr as its' parents (or maybe just one parent...and that raises further questions) are.
As for Vlad and Isabella, maybe they just didn't care to. That Leber Necris source noted Neferata was unusual in that regard. Most vamps probably just don't bother with the whole childbirth thing. Especially if they have to wait for the kid to grow up and then turn them, lest they grow old and die.
And in the meantime they're all too mortal and vulnerable. Nah, blood kiss children are probably seen as more practical and less vulnerable.
Edit:
Ah, ninja'd on the one vamp parent idea.
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Ganurath
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I just had a realization as to how to square the circle on Genevieve's third generation thing. Wouldn't even require editing:
Genevieve: "Wait, you're my grandsire? But my sire said I was a third generation rogue!"
Melissa: "Yes, it's a rare vampire that'll submit to the Pinnacle after being sired by a renegade. My sire was rather scandalized by my rebellion. He was descended from Belda the Melancholy, one of Neferata's less glorious progeny. You're rather more distantly removed from her than the Idiot implied. Oh, but what you've achieved despite that! All the old bats are practically gnawing at themselves in envy."
Genevieve: "Wait, you're my grandsire? But my sire said I was a third generation rogue!"
Melissa: "Yes, it's a rare vampire that'll submit to the Pinnacle after being sired by a renegade. My sire was rather scandalized by my rebellion. He was descended from Belda the Melancholy, one of Neferata's less glorious progeny. You're rather more distantly removed from her than the Idiot implied. Oh, but what you've achieved despite that! All the old bats are practically gnawing at themselves in envy."
I thought the most reasonable interpretation of that was, indeed, "Yeah this is just them saying they figured out how to make Vampires using blood, and left the educating of those new vampires to others." Or "Just weird Warhammer weirdness that doesn't make sense." Or maybe "In-universe weirdness; rumors and bullshit that is unsubstantiated."
I think if you really wanted to take that entry in Liber Necris as "actually happened, so how does it work?" and work on a way to make it make sense, you could... try to claim that this was back in the ancient days of Nehekhara and before the time when Nagash cursed all Vampires. That, just as it is just as much a matter of "Yo their souls are cut off from the Aethyr, and that has Effects, man" which would complicate giving birth? You could say that in the time and land of ancient Nehekhara, before the covenant with the Gods was sundered, and before Nagash cursed the Vampires, maybe the biological and magical conditions of Vampires was different. For that matter, it could even be the case that some Nehekharan magic or god stuff or alchemy was involved too, to make it possible or viable.
Or you could say that the children did indeed turned out... rather creepy and weird. Born of a being that was cut off from the Aethyr. And after seeing that, most Vampires... decided that they did not want to do that, and preferred using their Blood-Gift to bribe and reward others into immortality and to raise friends, servants, and companions into fellow immortality, over having weird creepy children.
I think if you really wanted to take that entry in Liber Necris as "actually happened, so how does it work?" and work on a way to make it make sense, you could... try to claim that this was back in the ancient days of Nehekhara and before the time when Nagash cursed all Vampires. That, just as it is just as much a matter of "Yo their souls are cut off from the Aethyr, and that has Effects, man" which would complicate giving birth? You could say that in the time and land of ancient Nehekhara, before the covenant with the Gods was sundered, and before Nagash cursed the Vampires, maybe the biological and magical conditions of Vampires was different. For that matter, it could even be the case that some Nehekharan magic or god stuff or alchemy was involved too, to make it possible or viable.
Or you could say that the children did indeed turned out... rather creepy and weird. Born of a being that was cut off from the Aethyr. And after seeing that, most Vampires... decided that they did not want to do that, and preferred using their Blood-Gift to bribe and reward others into immortality and to raise friends, servants, and companions into fellow immortality, over having weird creepy children.
Perhaps. I suppose the original issue of how this little debate started was based around how Kattarin could rule Kislev for 156 years and also be killed by her son, rather than grandson, and also is implied to have been turned before she took up rulership as Tzarina.
Heck, maybe Pavel got jumped by the same Oblast Spirits that make Hags have extended lifespans, for all we know.
That'd be a twist no one saw coming.
"Turns out she had one son before being turned, and then later he got jumped by Oblast Spirits, so he looked uber awful and old but lived a really, really long time as well before toppling over."
That almost works...except that Melissa's sire was Belda the Melancholy?
And the Lahmians call Genevieve a 3rd Generation Rogue, I'm not sure if Chandanac ever called her that. He was kinda...himself, I think, about the whole matter.
So you go:
1. Neferata
2. Belda, being a wild-haired monster brigand born originally in Nehekhara and was turned back in Lahmia who really just...did not quite fit the mold of a regular Lahmian and was just roaming around being weird after failing too many Insanity checks
3. Melissa
4. Chandanac
5. Genevieve
6. Johanna
OR
1. Neferata
2. ?????
3. Belda, being a wild-haired monster brigand born originally in Nehekhara and was turned back in Lahmia who really just...did not quite fit the mold of a regular Lahmian and was just roaming around being weird after failing too many Insanity checks
4. Melissa
5. Chandanac
6. Genevieve
7. Johanna
But that also runs into the idea that its supposed to get harder and harder for later generation vampires to sire, but Melissa was like, super proud that she'd sired almost or more than 100 vamps, so clearly she's got to be relatively early generation by the numbers. So I guess I'd go with Belda being straight Lahmian-direct-source-Nehekharan? Maybe?
Heck, maybe Pavel got jumped by the same Oblast Spirits that make Hags have extended lifespans, for all we know.
That'd be a twist no one saw coming.
"Turns out she had one son before being turned, and then later he got jumped by Oblast Spirits, so he looked uber awful and old but lived a really, really long time as well before toppling over."
That almost works...except that Melissa's sire was Belda the Melancholy?
And the Lahmians call Genevieve a 3rd Generation Rogue, I'm not sure if Chandanac ever called her that. He was kinda...himself, I think, about the whole matter.
So you go:
1. Neferata
2. Belda, being a wild-haired monster brigand born originally in Nehekhara and was turned back in Lahmia who really just...did not quite fit the mold of a regular Lahmian and was just roaming around being weird after failing too many Insanity checks
3. Melissa
4. Chandanac
5. Genevieve
6. Johanna
OR
1. Neferata
2. ?????
3. Belda, being a wild-haired monster brigand born originally in Nehekhara and was turned back in Lahmia who really just...did not quite fit the mold of a regular Lahmian and was just roaming around being weird after failing too many Insanity checks
4. Melissa
5. Chandanac
6. Genevieve
7. Johanna
But that also runs into the idea that its supposed to get harder and harder for later generation vampires to sire, but Melissa was like, super proud that she'd sired almost or more than 100 vamps, so clearly she's got to be relatively early generation by the numbers. So I guess I'd go with Belda being straight Lahmian-direct-source-Nehekharan? Maybe?
Imperious
Without the sun of my life
The thing is according to page 40 it wasn't vampires that left the raising of their "children" to others, it was just Neferata, who is noted to be unusual for having "children" at all, even though we know that more vampires then just Neferata used the Blood Kiss. Added to that other things like using two different terms for having "children", both sire and conceive, or how immediately after stating how unusual Neferata was for having children it afterwards goes on about how in contrast the vampires found how they could pass on their condition with the blood kiss etc,etc.
It seems to me to be reaching to state that the paragraph was just talking about the Blood Kiss.
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Hey, this is a Watsonian discussion here, friend. Take that Doylist crap someplace else. 😜
Blackout
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Or possibly everyone just agreed that Pavel was most definitely Kattarin's son and the rightful Tzar, and anyone who disagreed received a friendly visit from the Chekists.
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Speaking of Kattarin, the implication is she kept her magic, her deity/land-contracted magic. Between that and the Turnskin it's looking like the Widow doesn't care too much who or what makes the storm and chills the wind so long as someone is doing it. In that sense, it fits a hostile, unforgiving force of nature typically associated with freezing to death.
HAH!
That's even better.
"Of course I am the true son of the Tzarina, everyone says so, and everyone who doesn't say so...doesn't say anything at all."
"But she's been Tzarina for 156 years, how-,"
View: https://youtu.be/KtBLK2VOm4I
Problem solved everyone! The discussion of vampires and childbearing capabilities has ceased to matter!
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It seems to me to implie that most vanpires are able to to have natural kids but choos not to instead use the blood Kiss but silly unusual Neferata does choose to have natural offspring ontop of her blood kiss daughters
So maybe there are strings to it like for example it need to be done with a mortal who is still contected to the the Aetyr and having a soul
And many a vampire put there nose up to lie with what they view as cattle
So maybe there are strings to it like for example it need to be done with a mortal who is still contected to the the Aetyr and having a soul
And many a vampire put there nose up to lie with what they view as cattle
Ganurath
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From the earlier link about Melissa:
"She was transformed into a vampire when her coach was stopped by a brigand who wanted more than money [1a] - a barbaric, wild haired monster of the bloodline of Belda the Melancholy who killed her parents and turned her.[2]"
I don't have the book myself, but I took it to mean that the barbaric, wild haired monster killed her parents and turned her, and that said monster was of the bloodline of Belda the Melancholy.
Saw that on a subsequent read. Barring clarification, my theory is that vampires that were turned as children have more vitality... or she's doing something horrific on the sly to refill the tank, possibly while disposing of the more reckless members of the vampire population like she sought to do with Wietzak.
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So maybe they just meant she's the third generation in a row along a certain line that went Rogue. Would depend on the exact text, I guess.
Melissa went rogue, then Chandanac, then Genevieve. All disobeying their sires at some point.
HAH!
That's even better.
"Of course I am the true son of the Tzarina, everyone says so, and everyone who doesn't say so...doesn't say anything at all."
"But she's been Tzarina for 156 years, how-,"
View: https://youtu.be/KtBLK2VOm4I
Problem solved everyone! The discussion of vampires and childbearing capabilities has ceased to matter!
Boo.
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You have the right to say boo, just as they have the right to drag you into the Oblast and nail you to the ground
Everything is fine, folks, problem solved.
Massgamer
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Agreed, and not like WHF is a stranger to those kinds of situations either.Problem solved everyone! The discussion of vampires and childbearing capabilities has ceased to matter!
I would 100% understand if @torroar does not want to bother with vampire scions, but personally I have always liked the trope of the dhampir and not just because I saw Blade at an impressionable age (It was only mostly that 
)
But seriously though it leads to some interesting questions and inner conflicts, dark legacies and the nature of humanity. If such a being is cursed by the gods in some way than are the gods being fair in this instance? Does the person need to seek redemption, to help destroy their monstrous sire? Covertly if they are well inclined to their vampire sire can they reconcile their half human nature to the inhumanity of vampirism? Do they resent that they are not as powerful, not as ageless? Do they perhaps suffer all of banes of unlife and get a pittance of the boons?
This is not really a Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism thing though, it's not a place that is calling out for that kind of storytelling, if the GM chooses to include it neat, if not fine. That is not what I'm here for, looking forward to the conclusions of the big war.
)But seriously though it leads to some interesting questions and inner conflicts, dark legacies and the nature of humanity. If such a being is cursed by the gods in some way than are the gods being fair in this instance? Does the person need to seek redemption, to help destroy their monstrous sire? Covertly if they are well inclined to their vampire sire can they reconcile their half human nature to the inhumanity of vampirism? Do they resent that they are not as powerful, not as ageless? Do they perhaps suffer all of banes of unlife and get a pittance of the boons?
This is not really a Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism thing though, it's not a place that is calling out for that kind of storytelling, if the GM chooses to include it neat, if not fine. That is not what I'm here for, looking forward to the conclusions of the big war.
Heh, might be amusing if he goes after the Chosen of Khaine in this battle.
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I just want to add, according to the Warhammer wiki, Pavel is Kattarin's great-great grandson
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I'm curious about the mechanics behind all of this. Just what were the dice rolls behind the scenes? Who did the best and the worst?