Warhammer Fantasy: A Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism

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DragonParadox said:
Fusses do not burn reliably, they depend on all sorts of little factors and even the smallest mistiming can end up with the bolt exploding at the wrong moment. For that matter crossbows are not that one would call the most reliable of mechanisms. Imagine that you lit your fuse, you aimed your shot and then with the bomb all too close to your face, the crossbow jams. The first quality of any weapon is not to kill the enemy, it is not to semi-regularly kill its operators, because if it does not one is going to want to use it.

Well unless you are the skaven in which case bring on the warpstone yes-yes. :V
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... Describing Crossbows as "not very reliable" is a bad joke when we talk about early blackpowder usage... We literally gave the militia and part of our armies Crossbows back because their more reliable and cheaper to train with. A crossbow is a very easy construction and the only way it "jams" is if the drawstring snaps.

And secondly, we literally have an entire troop of guys that throw the things. is it dangerous? Yes absolutely. will they do it anyway if the pays good enough and we train the correctly? Also yes...

Edit: we literally gave Ogres (normally not know for the regard for proper safety measures, wast intellect or problem solving skills) hand carried cannons... And that worked out fine...

Edit edit: though not saying our Ogres are dumb, their just focused on other areas more then gunnery most of the time.
 
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Tobtorp said:
... Describing Crossbows as "not very reliable" is a bad joke when we talk about early blackpowder usage... We literally gave the militia and part of our armies Crossbows back because their more reliable and cheaper to train with. A crossbow is a very easy construction and the only way it "jams" is if the drawstring snaps.

And secondly, we literally have an entire troop of guys that throw the things. is it dangerous? Yes absolutely. will they do it anyway if the pays good enough and we train the correctly? Also yes...

Edit: we literally gave Ogres (normally not know for the regard for proper safety measures, wast intellect or problem solving skills) hand carried cannons... And that worked out fine...

Edit edit: though not saying our Ogres are dumb, their just focused on other areas more then gunnery most of the time.
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  1. Our black powder using units do not shoot grenades, that is far more of a potential for an explosion than just the change to send something down barrel
  2. Arms are generally more reliable than complex mechanical contraptions, you arm jamming is a good bit less likely than the same thing happening to a crossbow.
  3. Ogres are also known for being walking talking Old One designed tanks, they might indeed misfire their canons, but they can probably life through it more than a squashy human can live though having a grenade explode at eye level
 
DragonParadox said:
  1. Our black powder using units do not shoot grenades, that is far more of a potential for an explosion than just the change to send something down barrel
  2. Arms are generally more reliable than complex mechanical contraptions, you arm jamming is a good bit less likely than the same thing happening to a crossbow.
  3. Ogres are also known for being walking talking Old One designed tanks, they might indeed misfire their canons, but they can probably life through it more than a squashy human can live though having a grenade explode at eye level
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1. Our cannons have malfunction often enough, should we stop using them because of that? A crossbow is more reliable the a cannon and a cannon that has something wrong with it is a nothing more then a giant bomb.

2. Yes, your arms not going to jam, your just going to drop the grenades to your feet. Congrats.

3. Yes, and we have the Ogres incorporated into our squishy human army where their misfire can fuck over our regular troops.

Face it, a crossbow is not inherently more prone to failure or user error then a cannon. Would I switch over all of our crossbow wielders to these ones? No, but a special troop, like the grenadiers, is certainly in the cards...
 
Tobtorp said:
1. Our cannons have malfunction often enough, should we stop using them because of that? A crossbow is more reliable the a cannon and a cannon that has something wrong with it is a nothing more then a giant bomb.

2. Yes, your arms not going to jam, your just going to drop the grenades to your feet. Congrats.

3. Yes, and we have the Ogres incorporated into our squishy human army where their misfire can fuck over our regular troops.

Face it, a crossbow is not inherently more prone to failure or user error then a cannon. Would I switch over all of our crossbow wielders to these ones? No, but a special troop, like the grenadiers is certainly in the cards...
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A black powder grenade is as you said above already an unreliable weapon, likely the most unreliable of our weapons, it would be compounded by the unreliability of crossbows. Basically your crossbow can jam and you can drop it. The more complexity you add to a weapon delivery system the more likely it is to fail and in this case kill the operator.
 
DragonParadox said:
A black powder grenade is as you said above already an unreliable weapon, likely the most unreliable of our weapons, it would be compounded by the unreliability of crossbows. Basically your crossbow can jam and you can drop it. The more complexity you add to a weapon delivery system the more likely it is to fail and in this case kill the operator.
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I still don't get where you take "Crossbows are super unreliable" from, there is no basis for it in the quest or real life... It's like saying a bow is unreliable because the archer could drop the arrow... And if we ever want to use mortars then you better say the same stuff because their even more complex of a system and were still widely used...
 
We gave our militia crossbows back because they are ethier Ulcrian or Taalites and think tha guns are yuck.
Also we limited black powder to militias because tzeench is an asshole.
 
Tobtorp said:
I still don't get where you take "Crossbows are super unreliable" from, there is no basis for it in the quest or real life... It's like saying a bow is unreliable because the archer could drop the arrow... And if we ever want to use mortars then you better say the same stuff because their even more complex of a system and were still widely used...
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Our chances of getting stuff is up in the air, due to pursuing alcohol powered fever dream. You are also treading ground that has been tediously retread to the point of uncovering bead rock. We either get something or we don't. Belaboring the point is tedious for longtime readers.
 
ShyPerson said:
Our chances of getting stuff is up in the air, due to pursuing alcohol powered fever dream. You are also treading ground that has been tediously retread to the point of uncovering bead rock. We either get something or we don't. Belaboring the point is tedious for longtime readers.
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Sure, this is more of a argument with paradox, it's on our masterful gm to decide how viable it is, but shooting a grenade with a crossbow sounds like an excellent drunk idea I will say.
 
Tobtorp said:
I still don't get where you take "Crossbows are super unreliable" from, there is no basis for it in the quest or real life... It's like saying a bow is unreliable because the archer could drop the arrow... And if we ever want to use mortars then you better say the same stuff because their even more complex of a system and were still widely used...
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A bow is indeed less reliable than just throwing the arrow, a atlatl than just throwing the spear, any new system added increases the risk of failure and, in this case, death or maiming of the user. I have no great interest in the engineering parts of the quest, I'm here for the characters mostly. With that said I am pretty sure dwarfs have mortars, so that is a sign that it can be done safely, whether we can do it safely I have no idea.
 
MrRobot said:
We gave our militia crossbows back because they are ethier Ulcrian or Taalites and think tha guns are yuck.
Also we limited black powder to militias because tzeench is an asshole.
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And we organized whole crossbow regiments because we are so nostalgic are we? Turn 35 is when we did that and it's explicitly because their more reliable in all weather situations and safer too.
DragonParadox said:
A bow is indeed less reliable than just throwing the arrow, a atlatl than just throwing the spear, any new system added increases the risk of failure and, in this case, death or maiming of the user. I have no great interest in the engineering parts of the quest, I'm here for the characters mostly. With that said I am pretty sure dwarfs have mortars, so that is a sign that it can be done safely, whether we can do it safely I have no idea.
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The empire also gets mortars (just later, and we are not on the research path to develop them AFAIK) but going with "everything is unreliable" is a pretty dumb reason. With that you should be against engineering as a whole because it can be unreliable...

By God, we literally invented a explosive throwing catapult ourself...
And we didn't stop because it might misfire...
 
Tobtorp said:
The empire also gets mortars (just later, and we are not on the research path to develop them AFAIK) but going with "everything is unreliable" is a pretty dumb reason. With that you should be against engineering as a whole because it can be unreliable...

By God, we literally invented a explosive throwing catapult ourself...
And we didn't stop because it might misfire...
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That is not what I said, my point is things grow less reliable as you add complexity. Catapults suffer the same issue, but they are crew served weapons served by engineers.

That said I already said they could serve as drunk science if it suits the GM. Like they would not break my SoD if they were available, but by the same token it would not break by SoD if the GM nixed it for drunk science.
 
Tobtorp said:
And we organized whole crossbow regiments because we are so nostalgic are we? Turn 35 is when we did that and it's explicitly because their more reliable in all weather situations and safer too.

The empire also gets mortars (just later, and we are not on the research path to develop them AFAIK) but going with "everything is unreliable" is a pretty dumb reason. With that you should be against engineering as a whole because it can be unreliable...

By God, we literally invented a explosive throwing catapult ourself...
And we didn't stop because it might misfire...
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The whole point of the Engineering School is to take prototypes and refine them to the point where they are mostly reliable. There is of course some variance allowed because drunken science isn't the most safe of things at the best of times, but that doesn't mean that we should be full bore crafting prototypes for use in the field like you seem to want.

We have cannons of all shapes and sizes. We have doom spheres. We have an extreme proliferation of guns and crossbows of all sorts. We have aerial bombers. We have a tank that runs on alcohol. These radical innovations and more that I've surely forgotten because there have been so many have all been done over the course of one lifetime in a preindustrial society.

Torroar himself has mentioned before that he wants to make sure that we don't just explode out into massive, unrealistic levels of tech progression and unnaturally dominate the setting. I think personally that the levels of tech we have access to at the rate we've gotten it now is already at the threshold of such. Wouldn't you say what we have now is more than good enough?
 
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Raichu1972 said:
The whole point of the Engineering School is to take prototypes and refine them to the point where they are mostly reliable. There is of course some variance allowed because drunken science isn't the most safe of things at the best of times, but that doesn't mean that we should be full bore crafting prototypes for use in the field like you seem to want.

We have cannons of all shapes and sizes. We have doom spheres. We have an extreme proliferation of guns and crossbows of all sorts. We have aerial bombers. We have a tank that runs on alcohol. These radical innovations have all been done over the course of one lifetime in a preindustrial society.

Torroar himself has mentioned before that he wants to make sure that we don't just explode out into massive, unrealistic levels of tech progression and unnaturally dominate the setting. I think personally that the levels of tech we have access to at the rate we've gotten it now is already at the threshold of such. Wouldn't you say what we have now is more than good enough?
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The problem with that is that if we follow the though of "it is good enough as it is" to the end it stops at "and now we don't get any military research options anymore." Which people would right fully annoyed by.
My idea is only the combination of two already researched, tested and implemented ideas (Crossbows and grenades) and isn't really setting breaking because the researcher tree pretty much ends there until metallurgy, powder anf fuses are good enough for mortars. The grenade crossbow I referenced only has a range of about 150 meters, which is not very far in gun line warfare...
And yes, I will give you that our tech base is rapidly growing (maybe too fast even) but the only way to solve that is either to stop research artificially or to extend research time to decades instead of years.
 
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I am curious about what civilian tech we can research into since we have done a few examples of it what with seed drills for example.

Maybe we can research things like medical grade alcohol to help sanitize stuff better, production methods, using the vapor engine for other stuff, etc.
 
Massgamer said:
I am curious about what civilian tech we can research into since we have done a few examples of it what with seed drills for example.

Maybe we can research things like medical grade alcohol to help sanitize stuff better, production methods, using the vapor engine for other stuff, etc.
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If we are producing high-grade spirits then we have already medical-grade alcohol...

Every distilled alcohol brewage is made in the same basic way, the fermented base is distilled up to 80 to 96 degrees, then you age it in barrels (or not) and add a portion of clear water until you reach the appropriate alcohol level... The only thing that really changes is what you use as the fermented base and the method used in ageing it.

The only thing that medic alcohol has is that is mixed with methanol so that the people cannot drink it, and it can be sold without paying the taxes that regular alcoholic brewages pay.
 
@torroar does Freddy have anything to use against the Starbrook package talks (While the last Meet ended on a poor note, and the package was a tool to be used to attack the trident, preparation to deal with an actual fair package at the current EM is not unreasonable)? I can't actually find Freddy's inner monologue confirming Sabine/Freddy have prepared for a possible Starbrook package proposal at the Electors Meet, or that Freddy has something from Sabine for it. Sabine stayed in Ostland this EM.

A paragraph could use some clean-up ("I understand that being selected...."). The underlines in the quote is only there to highlight the contradiction.
torroar said:
Sat in front of you and Urgdug at the very entrance to the workshops of Wulfenburg was the mighty vapor tank The Horns, its sibling not yet fully constructed. It was deathly still, their gluttonous metal stomachs silent and full, the heat not yet unleashed. The same could not be said of its crew. All five men and women were babbling over one another. It was easy to see why Anna had decided to delegate upwards to you rather than listen to their arguing any longer. She hadn't had any strong feelings one way or the other, which was normal, but now you were the one who had to deal with it. Rolling your eyes, you reach over and thump Urgdug's thigh with your fist, letting your brother inhale deeply enough to make his armor squeak as his chest expanded.

"SHUT UP!"

The babbling ceased. Those other engineers who were close enough to be paying attention semi-discretely silenced their feeble fake conversations. The windows rattled, and the sturdiest buildings in Wulfenburg save for Wulfenburg Castle itself seemed to shudder minutely. Dust and sawdust bloomed outwards. A massive swathe of the Wulfenburg School of Gunnery and Engineering fell quiet. You even think you might have spied the tank shifting ever so slightly on their enormous, locked wheels. There is a flush of amusement which rises up from Natasha back at the castle, though that is no doubt only because your own mounting frustration turning to relief at the blessed silence. The two of you trade emanating bemusement for a moment before you pull your thoughts together.

"I understand that being selected to crew and go to battle in the vapor tank is an esteemed position," you call out, ignoring the blood trickling out of your blown out ears and the bloom of the Light of Summer on your chest. "You have proven themselves in battle already, though of course Little Guvuar is the younger child and needs longer to rack up the same honors as The Horns. However," you pause as the delicate innards of your ears heal completely to let you fully hear the incredible silence within immediate earshot and the city beyond. "It is not your decision to make what the tanks do, nor where they go, for in truth it is ultimately mine."

Five faces pale as they finally comprehend that they'd just been making utter fools of themselves in front of you for quite a bit too long.

"There are potential benefits, and potential issues aplenty," you shake your head.

You'd already decided on the rest of your escort, this was simply the last matter before you headed south.
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Massgamer said:
I am curious about what civilian tech we can research into since we have done a few examples of it what with seed drills for example.
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There was no "we" for the seed drills. Seed drill research was all Anna. The players had no choice in the research of the seed drills. The vaporcyclers are practically civilian tech. Get that done, and there might be more to come.

Edit: @torroar are Magister Carlotta, Master Wizard Casparan Smokewrought, and Magister Alric, still in Ostland for the year?
 
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I just want vaporcycles. How do vaporcycles not exist yet. Such a cool idea and yet we haven't researched it. Really want a knightly biker gang called the lost and damned.
 
Honest to christ engineer knights with gun spears would be badass. The steel wheels or something i don't know, if knights are willing to ride death chickens they're willing to ride these
 
I honestly think that if we ever want to have knights willing to ride 2 wheeled explosive boilers of alcoholic death then we probably need to start a engineer-knight chapter ourself.
 
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Tobtorp said:
I honestly think that if we ever want to have knight willing to ride 2 wheeled explosive boilers of alcoholic death then we probably need to start a engineer-knight chapter ourself.
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I don't think we have enough engineers for that.

If knights are willing to ride deathbirds that they have to take themselves, which have a good chance of killing them, I don't see why they wouldn't be willing to ride vaporcyclers.
 
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NCRTrooper said:
I don't think we have enough engineers for that.

If knights are willing to ride deathbirds that they have to take themselves, hitch hav a god chance of killing them, I don't see why they wouldn't be willing to ride vaporcyclers.
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Because the taming of a death bird is only once and still kills lots of people, a vapor cycle might get a bad hit and explode underneath the knights ass every time it goes into battle. Also I didn't mean making engineers into knights, but teaching knights the basics for the equipment that they would handle. Aka how to maintain and maybe even emergency repair a vapor cycle.
 
Tobtorp said:
Because the taming of a death bird is only once and still kills lots of people, a vapor cycle might get a bad hit and explode underneath the knights ass every time it goes into battle. Also I didn't mean making engineers into knights, but teaching knights the basics for the equipment that they would handle. Aka how to maintain and maybe even emergency repair a vapor cycle.
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If we're gonna do that, I don't really see the point of making a Knightly Order then. Just train guys to use them and recruit them into our armies directly. Cut off the middle man and all that jazz.
 
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