Warhammer Fantasy: A Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism

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DragonParadox said:
but have the Ogres integrated enough in the cults that if one of them should have an inclination for magic they can integrate smoothly as a priest? I know arcane magic is rather beyond Ogres, but hopefully non-Maw divine magic is doable otherwise any who are gifted with magic are chaos bait.
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It should certainly be possible, yes.

Esmeralda priests/chefs can already do minor divine magic when it comes to food, and I think I recall the idea that they can do more battle related stuff if the home was ever under attack, but other than good cooks for armies war priests from them is unlikely.

Ogre war priests of Taal should certainly be possible since already human versions of that and ogres who have entered the Cult of Taal and Rhya have been taking to it well, and the miracles of Taal would make for some awesome divine magic.

Maw priests and Firebellies are basically ogre priests for their brutal gods, so in time we should see an ogre Taal or Rhya priest.
 
Massgamer said:
It should certainly be possible, yes.

Esmeralda priests/chefs can already do minor divine magic when it comes to food, and I think I recall the idea that they can do more battle related stuff if the home was ever under attack, but other than good cooks for armies war priests from them is unlikely.

Ogre war priests of Taal should certainly be possible since already human versions of that and ogres who have entered the Cult of Taal and Rhya have been taking to it well, and the miracles of Taal would make for some awesome divine magic.

Maw priests and Firebellies are basically ogre priests for their brutal gods, so in time we should see an ogre Taal or Rhya priest.
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Eh... kind of sort of. Butchers can cast from the Lore of death and Firebellies from the Lore of Fire. I think that makes them more like Chaos sorcerers a divine-arcane hybrid, but if they can manage that I do not see why straight divine would be beyond them.
 
DragonParadox said:
Eh... kind of sort of. Butchers can cast from the Lore of death and Firebellies from the Lore of Fire. I think that makes them more like Chaos sorcerers a divine-arcane hybrid, but if they can manage that I do not see why straight divine would be beyond them.
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I don't see why Priests of Taal can't use spells from the Lore of Beasts and maybe a few from Life either, their miracles are pretty flavored towards that already.
 
Massgamer said:
I don't see why Priests of Taal can't use spells from the Lore of Beasts and maybe a few from Life either, their miracles are pretty flavored towards that already.
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I made a rather long bit of speculation in divided loyalties some time ago, about Taal Rheya and the winds specifically
DragonParadox said:
So I've been thinking about that 'druids are a degenerate arcane tradition theory' and I figgured I might as well post it here for you guys to see. A lot of this is based on speculation but the logic chain itself is I think solid.

Arcane Beginnings
So to start off it is said the Old Ones could not interact with anyone but the Slann Mage priests because their presence would fry the brains of anyone else. I find this highly dubious. Anyone with their mastery of magic and arcane technology should be able to build avatars that do not melt the humans' wee brains. Whether they would want to well that is where the speculation comes in. We know humans were scraped as a project for being too mutable and vulnerable to Chaos but that does not exclude some teaching in magic so they could be of some use, after all the elves got training. So let's say the Old Ones taught the humans how to use Ghyan and Ghur, two of the most forgiving lores of magic and then they vanished, leaving these primitive humans as the wisemen and shamans of their communities.

Age of the Beast
What followed the Second Great Chaos Incursion was broadly speaking the darkest age in the history of the world bar none, but it was far worst for mankind, Beastmen infested the forests, mutation ran rampant and countless tribes fell to the worship of the Ruinous Powers, a lot of that early lore would become corrupted and some of it would be muddled, in the rush to get apprentices trained to the standard to at least give some help to the tribe. There simply was not any time to be perfect, just good enough. This is where I think that most favored of human mental crutches showed up, anthropomorphism. The abstract winds of Ghyan and Ghur got given names, their whims assigned purpose and will. And in the warp two gods begin gestating.

Age of Migration
At some point a few centuries before the birth of Sigmar bronze wielding warlike tribes migrate from the east over the world's end mountains. Their friendship with the dwarfs and craft of smithing meager though it be by later standards allows them to conquer the forest dwellers of what would become the Old World. Cultural sincretism happens with gods being slotted into the same pantheon, we see this all the times in historical pantheon with the most well known example being the Asir/Vanir divide in Norse myth. Now the question is what happens to the remains of the arcane tradition, the people casting almost-Ghyan and almost-Ghur.

Settlement
The newcomers have the tools and the numbers to start settling, not just in seasonal camps but proper longhouses allowing them to far more and actually claim territories, pushing back the forests. The most valued skills in such a strife filled time are those of war, not for nothing are their chiefs the most skillful and inspiring leaders. Now if one is a life Druid in this time with your powers mostly focused on growth and fertility you are going to spend most of your time int he fields surrounded by Ghyan and doing 'womanly things' hence the goddess Rhya and her mostly subordinate role. But if you are a Ghur druid, well you can take your tame bear out of the woods and sick him on your enemies in battle and that is a respectable warrior skill right there, but with that skill comes political power that separates you from the wild places of the world. You start leaning less on Ghur and more on the divine powers of the nascent Taal, in some palces King of the Gods and in others subordinate to Ulric, dependent on if the proverbial bear ate the warrior chief or got an axe buried in its skull when the priests and the warrior aristocracy had it out for influence.

Age of Rediscovery
Now as to what Teclis found. The same forces that reshaped Ghur druids into priests of Taal would turn the druids into priests of Rhyaa, divine magic is just safer and more human-friendly with those who kept to the old ways hunted down as witches and dangers to the community when they would not get with the program, but the process of much slower, so Teclis found a lot more Ghyan lore out in the countryside than Ghur lore which is why the Jade Order is so heavily influenced by the ancient druids
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DragonParadox said:
So I just reread the story posts recently and something occurred to me:

@torroar apologies if this has been asked before and I just forgot but have the Ogres integrated enough in the cults that if one of them should have an inclination for magic they can integrate smoothly as a priest? I know arcane magic is rather beyond Ogres, but hopefully non-Maw divine magic is doable otherwise any who are gifted with magic are chaos bait.
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I'm under the impression you seek an exploit to power game.

To answer "have the Ogres integrated enough in the cults that if one of them should have an inclination for magic they can integrate smoothly as a priest?" The answer should be, not happening to your desired outcome.

All official magic users in the empire are trained in the imperial college. The only official magical users the Empire allows are those who are trained by the imperial college. Anyone not a member of one of the new Colleges found wilfully using magic is to be a "practitioner of dire witcheries" and they should be exiled or put to death for the good of all.

This translates into Ogres likely not being exempt from being sent into the colleges if they have magic.

Ogres can access arcane magic, as evidenced when the death twins went into the ogre lands and found a ogre who had reached the wind of shyish through the use of religion in the maw. Much like firebellies and the firemouth, with the religion being implied to be a mix of religion and arcane power in this quest.

If your question is will we see Ogre Priests of the religions in the empire? We already have ogre worshipers being integrated into the religions of the empire. Maybe someday we will see full priests. If the ogres who worship Esmerelda haven't reached priesthood status for at least a few of them by now.

Edit: The ogres in the mountains of Mourn have priests who can do stuff with religion, so there isn't a solid no for ogres being able to use priest abilities from religions in the empire.
 
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DragonParadox said:
So I just reread the story posts recently and something occurred to me:

@torroar apologies if this has been asked before and I just forgot but have the Ogres integrated enough in the cults that if one of them should have an inclination for magic they can integrate smoothly as a priest? I know arcane magic is rather beyond Ogres, but hopefully non-Maw divine magic is doable otherwise any who are gifted with magic are chaos bait.
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You may have forgotten the Cult of Esmeralda. It's priests are called Esmeraldan Chefs, and they have been confirmed to be able to perform some visible divine effects, even the halflings, which was as much a surprise to them as everyone else. Urgdug's wife, Cherag, is one of these. For the moment, as noted in...

torroar said:
Clenching his fist, he cast his thoughts towards Her in the Kitchen Above, and begged for her aid in ensuring that the stew he was making was perfect. That the marrow would melt just right so that the broth would be just thick enough but not turn into sludge. He poured his devotion to Esmeralda into the gesture of casting his hands outward towards the stewpot, fist splaying out into stretching fingers.

Light came from the palm of his hand and struck the pot.

It had only happened after he'd moved to Wulfenburg, joined the Grand Kitchen and cooked his way to the top with nothing more than pure cooking ability. It had only happened after he'd bound himself up in his faith and his brotherhood with his fellow folk of the Old World – from halfling to human to ogre to dwarf! Even so, every time his cries to Esmeralda came through he felt a renewed sense of devotion and purpose to her. To Ostland. To the Kitchen. To-
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From one of the Back Kitchen Dealings. So...yeah. The very first religion the ogres of Ostland really got involved in was the Cult of Esmeralda, before Taal or Morr or anything else besides. As of yet, Esmeralda's aid seems largely dedicated to the creation of food and the boosting of it, fortifying and what not. So it's not particularly flashy or anything, but yes, there are Esmeraldan Ogres capable of casting Esmeraldan spells. There are no ogre priests of Taal or even Rhya at the moment so who knows, but they are heavily involved with the Cult of Esmeralda.

Now, is it possible? Maybe. Hasn't happened yet, however, which is all that can be said on that front for now.
 
Speaking of Cult of Esmeralda, could we gift Soup Tank to them as possible fate for machine?

Other options include keeping at school as teaching aid, maybe putting it in army as center of cooking for said army (maybe own cooking regiment), or maybe some other option?
 
Okay then nevermind.

Anyway, next turn we should get more artillery and get more mercs to prep for Beast Bowl. The increased firepower will help in wearing down the forces that will slam into us.
 
When I need to cheer myself up I occasionally try to picture Esmeralda awkwardly trying to come to terms with all the new attention her faith is getting. Looking into the world from a step outside with the most uncertain, fixed smile as she is trying to figure out what the hell has been happening. Its absolutely adorable.
 
Marlin said:
I'm under the impression you seek an exploit to power game.

To answer "have the Ogres integrated enough in the cults that if one of them should have an inclination for magic they can integrate smoothly as a priest?" The answer should be, not happening to your desired outcome.

All official magic users in the empire are trained in the imperial college. The only official magical users the Empire allows are those who are trained by the imperial college. Anyone not a member of one of the new Colleges found wilfully using magic is to be a "practitioner of dire witcheries" and they should be exiled or put to death for the good of all.

This translates into Ogres likely not being exempt from being sent into the colleges if they have magic.

Ogres can access arcane magic, as evidenced when the death twins went into the ogre lands and found a ogre who had reached the wind of shyish through the use of religion in the maw. Much like firebellies and the firemouth, with the religion being implied to be a mix of religion and arcane power in this quest.

If your question is will we see Ogre Priests of the religions in the empire? We already have ogre worshipers being integrated into the religions of the empire. Maybe someday we will see full priests. If the ogres who worship Esmerelda haven't reached priesthood status for at least a few of them by now.

Edit: The ogres in the mountains of Mourn have priests who can do stuff with religion, so there isn't a solid no for ogres being able to use priest abilities from religions in the empire.
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Er what now...? How is this power gaming? I do not think we are teaching ogres arcane magic for the very simple reason that Ogres are by and large dumber than humans. The curriculum of the Colleges of Magic has already been simplified from something you teach an elf in centuries to something you can teach a human in decades... and that took Teclis. I find is vanishingly unlikely that the teachers there would simplify it to Ogre standards or indeed that they would even try to. That is a lot of effort for a handful of potential Ogre magicians. That is why I asked about priests because I do not think they can be wizards.
 
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So where are we in terms of Manpower overall? Would adding artillery, militarizing militia, and building another Vapor Tank and Titan Cannon help us out before the beast tide hits? Cause I'm thinking having two tanks and massive guns will help against whatever Beastmen hero unit we go up against.

Also would our missile cavalry be more effective due to the heavy blastgun so they could rip through centigors more easily when firing?
 
Blazblade said:
Also would our missile cavalry be more effective due to the heavy blastgun so they could rip through centigors more easily when firing?
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if you've played total war shogun 2 you would know just how utterly OP broken bullshit blunderbuss cavalry is , so getting blastgun rider formations to all three armies would have the greatest wide spread effect , while a new tank or titan cannon would be a massive boost to the army its attached to it would be limited to that one army only
 
mmgaballah said:
if you've played total war shogun 2 you would know just how utterly OP broken bullshit blunderbuss cavalry is , so getting blastgun rider formations to all three armies would have the greatest wide spread effect , while a new tank or titan cannon would be a massive boost to the army its attached to it would be limited to that one army only
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Ok so we should focus on militarizating militia and additional artillery to improve our effectiveness. Plus get to the vaporcycles for a new unit and the improved horses for our cavalry units.

Also is the cavalry going to get the heavy blastguns automatically or do we have to arm them via an option
 
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Also, if we do manage to defeat the massive Brayherd that Malagor is assembling, how much more should we improve our defenses and army?

Like should we make every city and large town have stone walls over half a dozen feet thick with getting great volley guns and other such artillery pieces on them? Or have stone forts that block the beast paths so any future beastmen attacks are blunted early?

Just saying that we need to make Ostland as strong as possible in case any other bastard tries to raze it.

Plus, we could see about making machines to help build more weapons once we get enough stuff to industrialize. I really want to get more boomdisks so we can make minefields to blow up any beastmen, Skaven, or greenskin that tries to attack a defensive position.

Also also, when are we going to recruit more orges into the Armies? I can definitely see at least the archers and thunderbreakers being brought into all three armies to improve their effectiveness. In addition, could we get grenadier orges which can hurl massive grenades at the enemy down the line?
 
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Blazblade said:
Also, if we do manage to defeat the massive Brayherd that Malagor is assembling, how much more should we improve our defenses and army?

Like should we make every city and large town have stone walls over half a dozen feet thick with getting great volley guns and other such artillery pieces on them? Or have stone forts that block the beast paths so any future beastmen attacks are blunted early?

Just saying that we need to make Ostland as strong as possible in case any other bastard tries to raze it.

Plus, we could see about making machines to help build more weapons once we get enough stuff to industrialize. I really want to get more boomdisks so we can make minefields to blow up any beastmen, Skaven, or greenskin that tries to attack a defensive position.

Also also, when are we going to recruit more orges into the Armies? I can definitely see at least the archers and thunderbreakers being brought into all three armies to improve their effectiveness. In addition, could we get grenadier orges which can hurl massive grenades at the enemy down the line?
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Doing, improvements to the army, focus on increasing ogre numbers in the army, building more walls for every settlement (our own nobility can build walls/improvements for settlements in the background), isn't the direction I strongly favor, but okay.

I see you forgot about the Vapor Tank production the future is unlikely to halt. Soup Tanks are the future!

Each turn already improves Ostland's ability to take a massive hit from a major threat. The players never stop building up, and up, and up, and up. The players are also not the only npc capable of building up and up and up in Ostland. In Turn 37 our stewardship actions involved building the foundation for a lighthouse, dealing with the "free" gunpowder, improving Wulfenburg's ability to store food. We have delayed the charcoal stewardship action for.... a while. Focusing only on the "insufficient" defenses, will delay our ability to grow money, or handle unique situations relegated to the stewardship section.

The player majority usually prioritize on those stewardship defenses for Ostland anyways, so I don't think the question regarding Ostland defense should be "how much more?", so much as "where can we improve, and with what?".

2340 IC (important settlements of Ostland)
Wulfenburg has walls, Salkalten has walls, Jegow has walls, Ferlagen has walls, Roezfels has walls, Temple of the Iceborn Flame has walls. Bugman's Brewery has walls.

Dunkelstal is well defended. Grensburg is a guard/outpost/settlement, Bohsenfels is a fort. Assume they all have walls.

Vogelsang has a palisade.

no walls?
Wurzen and Vandergart are sizable townships. No walls for both?

Verborgenbucht is a sea settlement, sizable posting of the Salkalten guard. No walls?

Schonfeld has a fish export, borders Kislev. Winged Lancers regularly patrol near the area. No walls?

Gauschdorf, posses a naval berth. No walls?
 
Blazblade said:
Also, if we do manage to defeat the massive Brayherd that Malagor is assembling, how much more should we improve our defenses and army?

Like should we make every city and large town have stone walls over half a dozen feet thick with getting great volley guns and other such artillery pieces on them? Or have stone forts that block the beast paths so any future beastmen attacks are blunted early?

Just saying that we need to make Ostland as strong as possible in case any other bastard tries to raze it.

Plus, we could see about making machines to help build more weapons once we get enough stuff to industrialize. I really want to get more boomdisks so we can make minefields to blow up any beastmen, Skaven, or greenskin that tries to attack a defensive position.

Also also, when are we going to recruit more orges into the Armies? I can definitely see at least the archers and thunderbreakers being brought into all three armies to improve their effectiveness. In addition, could we get grenadier orges which can hurl massive grenades at the enemy down the line?
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There's really only so much that we can do, to be frank. Freddy isn't going to be doing massive infrastructure projects to turn every hamlet into a fortress because for one we don't have the money to subsidize and maintain that. For another we don't have the power to do that. As much as they've been cowed nobility still have rights and some of those rights involve what they can do on their own lands.

For another thing, Industrialization is very very far off, if ever tbh. The closest thing to an industrialized polity on the planet are the skaven, and I doubt we'll be getting anyone to replicate them soon out of disgust alone. Even then, industrialization requires both a level of dense urbanization and food surplus that we frankly don't have right now. My understanding is that we're pretty strapped for engineers as it is, even as we're one of the two major engineering centers in the entirety of the Empire.

As for Ogres, I believe Torroar has brought this up quite a few times. We don't and won't just conscript every Ogre in Ostland into the military. There are many who volunteer, either into the militia or otherwise, but there are just as many that become laborers, or bodyguards, or priests, or chefs, or whatever else. We passed up on the chance to get increased amounts of Ogres by keeping the extremely stringent standards of the Greatbellow Academy in place instead of accepting Maw Ogres; what Ogres we have are what we're going to have for the near future.

Overall, I'm not too sure that there's much else to do regarding militarization of Ostland. You can only have so much of your population mobilized at one time, especially in a time period where most of the population are rural subsistence farmers. We're already far ahead of the game in that regard, by the way. Most Elector Counts have one Army that they keep up at all times. We have three. We're honestly at a pretty ridiculous level of constant mobilization as is that is only sustainable because of lucrative trade contracts with very rich contacts like the elves and dwarves.
 
Sorry, just want us to have the best chance possible to beat whatever bayherd Malagor will hit us with.

Plus the better we do against the force attacking us, the more soldiers we can strike with against the forces hitting the Northern Trident and then help out any other state that needs the additional help.
 
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