We have people with literal magic that can grow plants, not to mention we have contacts with the Asrai(enuil?). Growing rubber trees for them shouldn't be that much of a problem.
Magic can bring the dead to life with Gyrhan? I never knew that the magic of life can defy death.

Growing rubber trees in a climate unsuited for the trees, when the benefits of rubber is unknown is stupid. Magic is better utilized for food crops, not commercial. Military healing has a high priority as well.

We don't have thousands of ghyran magicals to tend to a large amount of rubber trees. It took years for a ritual to be done that would improve the crops of Ostland. How much more difficult will it be to tend to, I dunno 500 rubber trees. How many rubber trees do we need to force magic down in a cold environment to grow?
 
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Ok so fun fact I got from wiki diving. Our good vampiric friend Genevieve? Guess who else her sir e turned according a wiki dive? Kattarrin the Bloody. That's uh, some coincidence going on there.


So either someone resuscitated her old sire and threw him at Kattarin, or something else is going on. Regardless something tells me our daughter, the head of the religious secret police is in some deep deep excrement right about now because of it.
 
This interaction seems kinda odd to me. Admittingly I have no idea about shipbuilding and all that so you're welcome to correct me. But for me, it's like being given the choice of source code with documentation and comments vs. without it. Sure, if I am very skilled at the language I'll eventually be able to figure it out, replicate or modify what the program does. However, with extra documentation and comments, I would have a much easier time doing that than working backwards.
I mean, you aren't personally blessed by the God of Code though, right? I think that is a big culture gap thing for a lot of questers honestly, we've recently had other discussions about that and it seemed like that was a valid insight. People IRL reading this, we understand intellectually that the Warhammer gods are real in-universe. But to people in the fiction, the gods are really really real. But even besides that, it's probably a valid read that the elites of the Cult of Manann aren't just ship-builders, they are THE ship-builders. Even before tor highlighted "they've got magic god powers" I kinda just took Maghda's response as being an honest reaction of "wait, you think you've got something that we've never seen before?" Which you could take as arrogant and from somebody else it probably would be, but this is kinda low-key the entire focus of their existence and religion, and of Maghda's own personal life to date in particular. So personally I took it as they just really are that good and Maghda's too bluntly honest (now that she's comfortable with us, definitely) to soft-pedal that.
We have people with literal magic that can grow plants, not to mention we have contacts with the Asrai(enuil?). Growing rubber trees for them shouldn't be that much of a problem.
It'd be grand to have rubber, but even if we had the trees we wouldn't know how to process it. And as far as "having the trees" goes... I mean yes Jade Wizards could presumably just make them grow by pouring magic into them, but that wouldn't keep them alive in an inhospitable climate once the Jades walked away. Trying to build a rubber plantation in Ostland by having Jade Wizards pour magic into each and every tree on a regular ongoing basis for their entire lifecycle is, uh, unlikely to be economical even if possible. Don't get me wrong I'd totally be down to investigate this in a regular turn and see if there is some way to make it practicable or maybe set up a regular supply another way, but let's not trivialize the problem. I mean, in-universe we don't actually even know how useful this stuff might actually be.
 
I mean, you aren't personally blessed by the God of Code though, right? I think that is a big culture gap thing for a lot of questers honestly, we've recently had other discussions about that and it seemed like that was a valid insight. People IRL reading this, we understand intellectually that the Warhammer gods are real in-universe. But to people in the fiction, the gods are really really real. But even besides that, it's probably a valid read that the elites of the Cult of Manann aren't just ship-builders, they are THE ship-builders. Even before tor highlighted "they've got magic god powers" I kinda just took Maghda's response as being an honest reaction of "wait, you think you've got something that we've never seen before?" Which you could take as arrogant and from somebody else it probably would be, but this is kinda low-key the entire focus of their existence and religion, and of Maghda's own personal life to date in particular. So personally I took it as they just really are that good and Maghda's too bluntly honest (now that she's comfortable with us, definitely) to soft-pedal that.

Yeah, that makes sense in that context. It is still a bit weird for me personally for it's making it harder on yourself when you had an easier option but for the people living in the WHFB universe who do have a "God of Code" as you put it, it does now seem a bit silly that the blueprint was offered.

Thanks for the insight.
 
Miragliano " We are the best, too bad about the rats."

Dawi be like "Freddy, Dude! Drinks on us!"

Asur be like "Oh shit, it's actually him! Lock up the dudes who worship Kurnous quick!"

I have a feeling we just had noodles with the Dragon Head of the Marienburg Triad.

Fred and Nobby... You... absolute madman...
 
How would the thread set up a trade deal for coffee? Shouldn't that be a thing that takes a main turn to set-up? A trade deal happens right now to realign trade routes into Ostland by Ostland losing money for coffee, a product with limited demand inside the Empire, and limited supply inside Araby. That's too fast, right?

Nippon and Cathay have a war still going on, I think. Trade has halted in Cathay and Nippon with the Old World due to that war.

I was thinking more finding the people in Arabia's case who know who would be best to speak to get things moving rather than a full action same for the indic people look for the right contacts so when we get the action they can get the ball rolling.

As for Nippion and Cathay in all honesty we have very little clue IC what the hell is going on right now.
 
Magic can bring the dead to life with Gyrhan? I never knew that the magic of life can defy death.

Growing rubber trees in a climate unsuited for the trees, when the benefits of rubber is unknown is stupid. Magic is better utilized for food crops, not commercial. Military healing has a high priority as well.

We don't have thousands of ghyran magicals to tend to a large amount of rubber trees. It took years for a ritual to be done that would improve the crops of Ostland. How much more difficult will it be to tend to, I dunno 500 rubber trees. How many rubber trees do we need to force magic down in a cold environment to grow?
Oh yeah, though it really matters how long they have been dead. Like within 30 seconds to a minute. Got keep the soul in place long enough for the vessel to be repaired.

As for rubber, it pretty dicey yeah. Would be cool to have but its metagamey to try to obtain it without someone in universe explaining it. Though now that fred has seen what it can do he's bound to experiment and Anna might try to purchase some just to see what it can do. She is scientifically adventurous. It will have to be a multipart chain unlock to even get where we want it.

As for how many magicals it takes to deal with an orchard of trees, well we had like 5 at the time and they did pretty well for all the fields surrounding Wulfenburg. Magic is strong.

As for staying in Mareinburg, really depends on Natasha. If she wants to go, Fred will go.
 
Magic can bring the dead to life with Gyrhan? I never knew that the magic of life can defy death.

Growing rubber trees in a climate unsuited for the trees, when the benefits of rubber is unknown is stupid. Magic is better utilized for food crops, not commercial. Military healing has a high priority as well.

We don't have thousands of ghyran magicals to tend to a large amount of rubber trees. It took years for a ritual to be done that would improve the crops of Ostland. How much more difficult will it be to tend to, I dunno 500 rubber trees. How many rubber trees do we need to force magic down in a cold environment to grow?
...we had them make apple groves to make apple cider, honestly I don't see this as a huge leap in logic.
 
...we had them make apple groves to make apple cider, honestly I don't see this as a huge leap in logic.
Apple trees already naturally grow in the climate of Ostland though? Like, the part people are disputing is not "Jades can make trees grow." They absolutely can and I don't think anyone's disputed it. The point of contention is the tacit premise of "Jades can make trees able to survive indefinitely in climates that would normally kill them without requiring additional ongoing magical intervention." There's an enormous difference between "make trees that already grow here grow faster" or "increase crop yield of crops we can already grow for a while with multi-year rituals", and "magically reengineer trees on a fundamental level to survive in an entirely new biome, without losing the properties that made them valuable in the first place during this magically-induced mutation for good measure." The latter is what you're proposing. Rubber trees are not trees that currently grow in an Ostland-like climate and just haven't been imported yet. At least IRL, they require very specific conditions, and for context the kind we get natural rubber from IRL was discovered in a tropical rainforest. And those were exported elsewhere! ...To other tropical rainforests. Ostland has trees yes, but tropical rainforest? Not so much.
 
I was a bit shocked too, but...it does make a terrible sense, after I looked through the Wiki.
What about the Order of the Winter Throne, which is based primarily in Norsca? The Order itself is only a number of monasteries, but you'd have to have a decently large number of Ulricans to supply recruits for those monasteries, similar to how you'd need a very great amount of farmers to support a city.
 
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This interaction seems kinda odd to me. Admittingly I have no idea about shipbuilding and all that so you're welcome to correct me. But for me, it's like being given the choice of source code with documentation and comments vs. without it. Sure, if I am very skilled at the language I'll eventually be able to figure it out, replicate or modify what the program does. However, with extra documentation and comments, I would have a much easier time doing that than working backwards.
If we're using realistic Early Modern shipbuilding practices, there are few or no "blueprints" of the ship. Most of the construction practices are not commented but rather are done in a general and semi-formal sense of "industry best practices" passed down by master-apprenticeship relationships. And there tends to be enough similarity between the practices of one shipwright and another that the Manaanite shipwrights will be more able to deduce how things were done by looking at them than a programmer.

Furthermore, the craftsmen themselves, the ones who physically created these ships, would almost certainly not withhold information from the Manaanite clergy, should the Manaanites seek to ask. At most, we might make the process slightly more convenient for the Manaanites, but since we don't really operate our shipyards on the scale of something like the Venetian Arsenal, we probably don't directly control the design resources it would take to even HAVE secrets we could share with them that would help them much.
 
Again, Vallich is purely a local god to Nordland. You cannot try to force the entire work and worship of all ship-builders throughout the Old World onto him. He doesn't have that purview. He is the God of Ship Building...in Nordland. Much like how Guvuar is the God of Bulls...in Ostland. You are vastly overinflating a local God's influence on a multi-national Cult which is established across the Old World. People in Averland who drive their herds to market do go wailing to Guvuar that their prize bull isn't mating enough with the cows and that his herd is suffering as a result.

As for just what priests/favored of the Gods can manage, there are vast differences, even in the canon novels by GW/BL. I recall one instance, can't find specifics unfortunately, it was related to me by another, where a regular 'average' Warrior Priest of Sigmar was blowing marauders and Chaos Warriors apart with shockwaves of his hammer - I believe it was a Wulfric the Wanderer novel. Not a Grand Theogonist, not an Arch-Lector, just 'a' priest. Using his hammer in the purview of the domain of his God, fighting Chaos and defending the weak and what not. Sometimes, they are 'just' okay, right up until they really need to get going, like in the Mark of Chaos trailer. Or like the guy who took down Vlad with the immense spiritual strength to read from the correct dread tome, then tackled him onto a spike down below, without anything overly physically showy. Another time, a priest of Taal splashed some water on a daemon during Mandred Skavenslayer's time and it burned the daemon a bit. A bit. Taal is far less constantly worshipped by nearly as many people as Manann is, if nothing else. Artifacts and blessings of Myrmidia can literally alter your capacity and skill at command and tactics, as in directly altering your mind and 'improving it' within the remit of the God's domain. The same is true for all the Gods. The presence of the Antler of the Blue Stag of Taal suddenly shoots up the local communities skill with weapons. The Bountiful Net, a canon artifact of Manann, grants you INFINTE strength to pull ANYTHING from the bottom of the ocean, so long as you put in the hard work, which it is, every time. Which can include a single fish, several tons of gold, or your own old ship which sank to to the bottom, which was its literal first usage as an artifact. Manann isn't known as the local 'God of Fishing', but he can bless a net to pull ships out of the water, or an entire school of fish, or almost anything else.

I'm just...struggling here, with the idea that the God whose whole thing is the Ocean/Tide/Rivers Is My Thing and the Sea-Born who are even specially Blessed people who Live On The Water Always wouldn't have some weird stuff they (or that he could help them) could do to like, commune with the spirit of the ship all One Piece style or be able to hear its health through listening to the wood of the deck by pressing their ear to it and so on. Up to and including, yes, possibly picking them apart and putting them back together again without too much difficulty if the Sea-Born can repair ships at sea without too much difficulty, supposedly with the aid of Manann, without ever having to go into port.

I'll take a look in the morning, man, but it's almost midnight and I'm exhausted. If it came across as, like, a 'gotcha' to the vote maker, I did not intend it to be seen as such. I just followed along with Frederick suffering massive bloodloss and drinking a lot to get over the pain immediately before going into the conversation. Apologies to anyone who feels like it was a jab.

Frankly, I was astonished no one voted for, like, just take a nap instead of going on a city-wide booze tour immediately after the keelhauling.

EDIT: As for how the Matriarch was talking, that...to me was Maghda just being genuinely concerned that Frederick was all right? Like, she's seen people bump their head on the ship before, and they were fine, talking, etc. and then an hour later they were babbling or just dead because it turned out that they weren't all right like they'd thought. Like, he seemed fine immediate post-keehaul, oh no, he's not fine, oh no. But, again, I can look into it in the morning whenever I wake up as, it is in fact now past midnight as of me editing this.

I mean it's not like I can disagree with the reasoning, since you're the QM and the final say of what goes and all, but it is a kinda striking world-building decision that the Cult of Manaan's blessings outperform shipbuilding industries which require the backing of nation-level entities at this tech level. Like, aside from maybe The Bountiful Net, none of the other examples of "crazy high-powered cult shenanigans" you offered literally match the efforts of entire polities at a go.

I mean, I don't have a problem with the Matriach's reaction, in-setting. That's utterly sensible and you completely succeeded at her conveying concern rather than anything else, in my opinion. I'm just kinda dropping my jaw over the world-building implications.

Is there something I'm missing that makes ships of that size waaaaaaay easier to build and maintain in the WHF universe? Maybe I failed to pick up on how actually consistently awe-inspiring the more prominent cults of Sigmar and Ulric are? I mean they do some pretty wild stuff... that's almost this cool... sometimes. That the cult of Manaan can rely on this actually top-tier awe-inspiring effect, rather than it just being a massive roll of the dice, is a little... strange?

And I always took the "repairing ships at sea" thing to just be... admittedly better and more extensive patch-jobs of the sort that you can do when careening a ship on a beach, but not "Lol faith means drydocks and a massive knowledge base are completely pointless for this faction." That is on me, sure, but... dang. That's literally just as good as the equivalent Vampire Coast magic!

I mean I don't have a massive problem with it... But I think this is the first example of, "everything the PCs can do with the backing of their entire nation is 100% outclassed and you'll never even approach that" in the quest, so it's a bit of a change of pace, y'know? Either that or I'm entirely misreading just how potent the cult of Manaan's blessings really are.

EDIT: Avoiding a double post, here.


Apple trees already naturally grow in the climate of Ostland though? Like, the part people are disputing is not "Jades can make trees grow." They absolutely can and I don't think anyone's disputed it. The point of contention is the tacit premise of "Jades can make trees able to survive indefinitely in climates that would normally kill them without requiring additional ongoing magical intervention." There's an enormous difference between "make trees that already grow here grow faster" or "increase crop yield of crops we can already grow for a while with multi-year rituals", and "magically reengineer trees on a fundamental level to survive in an entirely new biome, without losing the properties that made them valuable in the first place during this magically-induced mutation for good measure." The latter is what you're proposing. Rubber trees are not trees that currently grow in an Ostland-like climate and just haven't been imported yet. At least IRL, they require very specific conditions, and for context the kind we get natural rubber from IRL was discovered in a tropical rainforest. And those were exported elsewhere! ...To other tropical rainforests. Ostland has trees yes, but tropical rainforest? Not so much.

A legit question because I could see it either way: Does the Empire understand the concept of greenhouses? This isn't a joke, the tech level in WHF is occasionally so wildly inconsistent I feel the need to ask.

And I'm asking because if I'm remembering correctly the British during the Victorian era managed to grow a heck of a lot of out-of-climate plants using the wonderful technologies of glass and steel and dung.
 
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A few thoughts.

1. We might want to start reaching out to all the sane cults just to get a feel for them.
2. Whoever thought that trading with open Chaos worshipers and let them move into their city was a good idea needs to have their head examined by the Silver Hammers. That's trouble waiting to happen.
3. The little moot holds no surprises... except Fred was stupid enough to drink ANYTHING sold to him by them.
4. We might want to offer the residents of the Tilian sector a chance to move to a more accepting province. We already have a small minority of Myrmidians. Yeah, the not-Spanish and not-Italians don't always get along, but we are already a melting pot. I don't see adding a dash of Tilian to it making the whole thing come crashing down.
5. We should talk to the elves about how we can help with their current problems caused by the Stair being in Ostland.
6. Coffee you say? Water clocks?
7. Meng Tan? Something tells me he's shadier than a dwarf hold with a torch shortage. We were trying to expand our spy network and hurt the compact... He could be our man.
8. We should contact our daughter and ask WTF is going on. Or our wife could just ask her sister about her recent love life.
 
7. Meng Tan? Something tells me he's shadier than a dwarf hold with a torch shortage. We were trying to expand our spy network and hurt the compact... He could be our man.
I'm sure he's a perfectly legitimate businessman.
It would be funny if importing coffee on a large scale gives us an extra research action. We should look into that later, since a lot of engineers I know drink it more than water. It might at least give them a bonus to their rolls.
 
I mean it's not like I can disagree with the reasoning, since you're the QM and the final say of what goes and all, but it is a kinda striking world-building decision that the Cult of Manaan's blessings outperform shipbuilding industries which require the backing of nation-level entities at this tech level. Like, aside from maybe The Bountiful Net, none of the other examples of "crazy high-powered cult shenanigans" you offered literally match the efforts of entire polities at a go.
Yes.

While we're at it, the Cult of Shallya has greater power than an Early Modern nation-level entity to heal the sick and establish working hospitals. The Cults of Sigmar and Ulric, each taken as a whole, have more and frankly better military options for a variety of purposes than some individual nation-level entities.

These are gods we're talking about, not purely secular institutions in a reality where we take for granted that there's no such thing as miracles or magic and the only power an institution has is what it seems to have on a mundane level.

...

Furthermore, we're talking about ship construction, specifically. It is entirely reasonable that the Manaanite cult and its close affiliates have a vast wealth of contacts in the shipbuilding industry, knowledge of ships, and even without their magical options that's going to be significant. These are ships made out of wood, nails, ropes, and suchlike, using techniques of construction broadly similar to those found throughout most of the Empire. The Cult is centered in Marienburg, the greatest center of this set of arts and crafts in all of Imperial territory. Its priests are welcome in almost any capacity remotely connected to nautical affairs.

Even without a miracle, it would not reasonably take the Manaanites very long to thoroughly survey our greatships and understand any interesting details of how they were constructed.
 
well that was an interesting update. thanks @torroar. For those of you talking about Rubber, Keep in mind that Rubber trees are tropical and even with jade wizard help they might now grow right or even at all. I would not mind staying for a bit on the second day and leaving around midday by ship or depending on the tide.
 
Do we need to stage an intervention for Kattarin? Because i think she got jumped by a Lahmian. Sadly out of context info, but eh.
 
Dang it, now I want to know if we could trade stuff for that nectar of the gods called Coffee. Is there any conceivable way that we could possibly get a steady supply of the substance through trading in the future? Because that would be quite interesting indeed.

Also, are we going to give out the Greatship schematics to the cult of Mannan? Didn't we plan to spread the knowledge and creation of Greatships throughout the Empire? If so then are we giving it away for free?
 
Magic can bring the dead to life with Gyrhan? I never knew that the magic of life can defy death.

Growing rubber trees in a climate unsuited for the trees, when the benefits of rubber is unknown is stupid. Magic is better utilized for food crops, not commercial. Military healing has a high priority as well.

We don't have thousands of ghyran magicals to tend to a large amount of rubber trees. It took years for a ritual to be done that would improve the crops of Ostland. How much more difficult will it be to tend to, I dunno 500 rubber trees. How many rubber trees do we need to force magic down in a cold environment to grow?
well that was an interesting update. thanks @torroar. For those of you talking about Rubber, Keep in mind that Rubber trees are tropical and even with jade wizard help they might now grow right or even at all. I would not mind staying for a bit on the second day and leaving around midday by ship or depending on the tide.
It'd be grand to have rubber, but even if we had the trees we wouldn't know how to process it. And as far as "having the trees" goes... I mean yes Jade Wizards could presumably just make them grow by pouring magic into them, but that wouldn't keep them alive in an inhospitable climate once the Jades walked away. Trying to build a rubber plantation in Ostland by having Jade Wizards pour magic into each and every tree on a regular ongoing basis for their entire lifecycle is, uh, unlikely to be economical even if possible. Don't get me wrong I'd totally be down to investigate this in a regular turn and see if there is some way to make it practicable or maybe set up a regular supply another way, but let's not trivialize the problem. I mean, in-universe we don't actually even know how useful this stuff might actually be.
But the Rubber Trees can survive and grow in Mediterranean cimates without the aid of magic, and I relly doubt that we can´t make them grow on oceanic climate with the help of the jades...

Besides, it doesn´t need to be the magical kind of help... the Jade College is the place in which the best botanics in the empire live, I am sure that they have already figured out how to make greehouses... They were already widely used through all Europe in the 17th Century
 
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