Any heavily infused matiral with light energy would probably turn into some form of crystal like the naruu are made out of crystalized light. Heck crystals might be what we need to do for the easiest way. However if we use metals maybe those crystals that result from the infusion will take on some of the properities of that metal. Like adamitium.
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SneakyWalrus
Is the Water Free?
I think that may actually add to Garrosh's entire 'repentance'. It would be a very clear sign that, even at the end of his life and a multitude of crimes, Grom sought to undo his crimes and seek atonement for his actions (even if he was only doing it for the Orcs and nobody else), which Garrosh could very easily play into, along with the rest of the Warsong.
"He was our greatest hero and warchief, and in the end, he sought atonement for his crimes, seeking to fight against the legion at the very end, seeking redemption through honour and blood. Do we not seek the same end, the same repentance that he sought? In the end of all things, Grom stood up and fought against the demons he had fallen to, blood haze lifted and the horrors of his deliberate actions shown. Should we not realize that, even for his crimes, he stood at the very end as a Warsong should, screaming defiance and hatred against those who corrupt the Orc's?
In this moment, we have a chance to stand greater than even the greatest of our clan did. To see that, even soaked in the blood of the dead, Grom stood at last against the evil of the Legion, and freed those tainted from the curse he delivered them to. Now we stand, untainted and uncorrupted, carrying on what, in his final moments, Grommash Hellscream stood for. Honour and repentance, hatred of the Burning Legion, and above all, atonement for our sins."
- Garrosh probably, if he learns about Grom's death.
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@SneakyWalrus Well hopefully anyway.
Actually. I'm pretty sure Magic infused metals won't produce magic crystals from their forging. No idea where the Warlocks Got shadow crystals from though. But it's probably not from infusing metals since Fel Iron and Felsteel was a side effect rather than something they sought to do.
Dark Abstraction
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because it pointlessly shit on quite a number of things that Blizzard had established in a number of previous games. For no real reason.
That's the crux of it, really. There was no valid purpose to it. The draenei were perfectly acceptable as a playable race as they were, and there was absolutely no good reason to change them or the origin of the friggin Burning legion itself, the Ultimate Big Evil of the Warcraft Universe.
If the Draenei weren't aesthetically pleasing enough, they could have chosen the pandaren (sooner), or the furbolgs, or the gnolls, or the goblins (sooner), or even pulled a paradigm shift and introduced a third faction featuring the naga (because they've had just as long as the night Elves to grow their population, and significantly more space to do it in. And they're immortal like the Night Elves too, so they never lose any history or technological/magical improvements. they were a perfectly viable option as a 3rd faction, and could have opened the doors to other aquatic-themed races). All these were speculated pre-BC, and i was rooting for naga or Furbolgs personally. There were a number of options that would have been perfectly viable without changing the setting, and Blizzard ignored all of them to instead shit up the established history of their game universe to make special snowflake sexy space goats.
I actually personally absolutely agree about caring deeply about all these people. Dammit, Marcus Jonathan was a fucking bro! He was my favorite non-story-central NPC when i played my Alliance characters.Honestly, I feel more strongly about all the Trolls and Troll heroes (Zul'Jin) that seem to get shafted every expansion.
Or when entering Stormwind for the first time in over 2 years to find out that an NPC named General Marcus Jonathan (guy on a horse who would return a /salute to players) was killed in the Fall of Theramore.
Or about Uther the Lightbringer.
...and Dranosh Saurfang.
Conflicted. I never felt strongly about him, just a vague kind of liking for him, but the shit they did in Wrath with the "There must always be a
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Garrosh would probably overjoyed to hear that Thrall, without any interference with the Mag'Har to stimulate it, tried to redeem the orcs.He'd probably be RADIOACTIVELY INFURIATED when he heard of Grom drinking demon blood AGAIN (though at least not knowingly this time). And he'd probably be molified and even a little proud that, at the end of it all, Grom denied the demons and as a gift through his death, shattered the Legion's grip on the orcish people forever. (those that aren't Fel Horde fuckdumpsters that are still happily guzzling down demon blood in Outland anyways. Or warlocks by choice. Those particular idiots are going to "disappear" very swiftly when the Mag'Har meet Thrall's Horde.)
At the end of it, he's probably going to be so totally overwhelmed by the range of emotions that he goes through that he'll just go emotionally numb, thank Thrall for elling/showing him, and grab Dranosh to go sit in a tent and get piss-drunk for the rest of the night. Because dammit, there's only so much that you can expect of an orc at once, and having an actual response to that kind of 800 megaton nuke getting dropped on you all at once is over the threshold!
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Well to be fair. Thrall probably won't really need to show that moment anymore. Since he only did it the first time because he wanted to wake up Garrosh from his funk. So Thrall will probably try to bond with stories rather than the spirit show.
As for being glad Thrall tried to redeem the orcs.... Well, He's trying to redeem the baby killer orcs. The original horde that did nearly all the monstrosities so that's going to be a very conflicting thing to swallow.
You are probably right about Getting pissed at Grom for drinking the Blood AGAIN and being mollified that Grom tried to fix his mistake by killing Mannoroth. Not sure about the drunk part. Depends on how characterization goes.
I was talking about about metals infused with light. Since torroar has stated extreme over use turns people into crystal beings like the Naruu.
His father didn't do it on purpose. If he had known it was demon blood he wouldn't have drunk it.
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Eh, he'd still be pissed. I mean Grom was first. That's the kind of stigma that sticks around.
Dark Abstraction
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yes, but he's trying to redeem the baby killers. He's not trying to justify their (monstrous) acts, he's trying to remake them into the honorable people they once were. Which is commendable. He looks at the orcs as they are and as they were, and has been told of what they once used to be, and sees them as they could be. And Thrall attempted to forge them from disparate remnants of shattered clans into a united people too, as Dranosh is doing to the Mag'Har. granted, no mag'har would ever consider defining themself as "an orc of the New Horde", but for the orcs of Azeroth, it's a considerable step up from "an orc of the X Clan" or "an orc of the Old (fel-corrupted, genocidal) Horde".
Thrall managed to do a considerable amount, and gained incredibly tight bonds of honor and friendship with a number of other people that his orcs as a peoples rescued from imminent destruction.
There's a lot there that Dranosh, Garrosh, and Jorin would look at and be proud to see. Room for improvement? Absolutely, mountains of it. But not a terrible start, at least. If the Horde that they came across when Draenor and Azeroth reconnected was the same one that left Draenor? The Mag'Har would butcher them to the last orc left.
Well, i assume that it'd be something that involves bonding with his best friend that could help take the burden off his mind for a few moments, or at least lessen it. Drinking is an easy option to use because it's the only one that's not a vague likelihood. If Garrosh is a paladin or arcane warrior by them, he might have a different response (like praying, or losing himself in his tomes).
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Actually. I think that's still a thing for the Azeroth horde.
But yea, I did mention the same thing about Thrall's horde being a step up from the demon's horde.
Course that doesn't mean we're not going to kick the Azeroth's horde's ass on principle. At least Dranosh probably will for his dad anyway.
Dark Abstraction
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Yes and no. It kinda is, but it's not a defining trait anymore. It's a "this is where I came from, these are my ancestors" kind of thing, like how modern people trace their lineage through their last names and ethnic histories. As opposed to the "fuck the burning blade, I'm a frostwolf, and thus superior" kind of insular mentality that the clans had pre-Kil'Jaeden. It's a step in the right direction.
i think that things will be very situational how we approach Thrall's Horde. We're gonna want to hear the history, because we're gonna meet these guys and they're gonna be all genuinely overjoyed to see us, but they're not gonna be going on recruiting pitches or anything, and they're gonna have shaman of their own. And they're gonna be accompanied by Tauren and Jungle Trolls, with not a single Ogre in sight; considering how xenophobic the Old Horde was (ogres were a subject race, not an equal partner and ally, and we'd have no clue about the sorta-alliance with the forest trolls at all), that's gonna raise some flags for finding out what's going on here.
So we're likely to at least tentatively hear them out. Because they won't seem to resemble what we'll have come to expect from non-Mag'har orcs.
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Dark Abstraction
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Wild Mass Guessing: The Speculationing
I wonder whether the presence of Warlocks in the Alliance and Horde, would be passed off as a gameplay-and-story-segregation thing inherent to WoW rather than "the way it would probably happen".
Would we really see Warlocks if we met the Alliance and Horde?
I mean, the Death Knights becoming a playable class was sold to me as an idea by the whole questline they went through and about how redemption (or at least rebellion and escape) was a whole theme for them. Warlocks feel more like a "Go Karting with Bowser" situation rather than the "redeemed Darth Vader" feel of Death Knights.
Garrosh:
(The truth is just that Grom wanted to be scientific about this. How sad that his son just doesn't understand nor appreciate that.)
Oh, right. Because he's totally awesome.)
Garrosh is... probably more than acquaintance, but less than a best friend.
But even so, I never got how the specific change he made (Light-worshipping spacegoats) somehow "shat on" them.
So not only did it seem like people made a big deal about a small thing, but the thing they complained about didn't seem that horrible to me anyway.
Seriously, as a guy who played WarCraft 2 and then WoW when it came out, I don't see how the Draenei were such a bighuge and emotional part of WoW before the first expansion actually started doing stuff with them. Maybe if they were somebody's favorite minor race or something and it was a special case for that particular person, yeah okay I guess everybody has their favorites.
Staying mad about it for 7, almost 8 now, years after the fact... Hmm well to be honest, I'm sure I could/would probably end up doing similar about something myself. But when looking at this as an outsider it's quite... surprising.
Taking a look at comments on WoW youtube videos or some posts people make, I end up absolutely flabbergasted at how much negativity there is. People will complain about everything but it looks like WoW specifically somehow got a whole, massive culture of complainers and doomspeakers; it's like it is now just an ingrained part of the messages, posts, and attitude irregardless of whether there's actually something to complain about or not.
Would we really see Warlocks if we met the Alliance and Horde?
I mean, the Death Knights becoming a playable class was sold to me as an idea by the whole questline they went through and about how redemption (or at least rebellion and escape) was a whole theme for them. Warlocks feel more like a "Go Karting with Bowser" situation rather than the "redeemed Darth Vader" feel of Death Knights.
Heh. Well, you gotta admit that sometimes it is amusing and interesting to think of all the what-ifs, from both sides, and alternate timelines/alternate-expansions and stuff.
Garrosh: "..."
Garrosh:
(The truth is just that Grom wanted to be scientific about this. How sad that his son just doesn't understand nor appreciate that.)
Actually, I think our best friend is Jorin.
(Why're we friends with this jerk again?
Oh, right. Because he's totally awesome.)Garrosh is... probably more than acquaintance, but less than a best friend.
*shrug* To me, what Blizzard had established in the past did not seem, ah, incredibly important or somehow significant and mattering to the game and story as I played it.
But even so, I never got how the specific change he made (Light-worshipping spacegoats) somehow "shat on" them.
So not only did it seem like people made a big deal about a small thing, but the thing they complained about didn't seem that horrible to me anyway.
Seriously, as a guy who played WarCraft 2 and then WoW when it came out, I don't see how the Draenei were such a bighuge and emotional part of WoW before the first expansion actually started doing stuff with them. Maybe if they were somebody's favorite minor race or something and it was a special case for that particular person, yeah okay I guess everybody has their favorites.
Staying mad about it for 7, almost 8 now, years after the fact... Hmm well to be honest, I'm sure I could/would probably end up doing similar about something myself. But when looking at this as an outsider it's quite... surprising.
Taking a look at comments on WoW youtube videos or some posts people make, I end up absolutely flabbergasted at how much negativity there is. People will complain about everything but it looks like WoW specifically somehow got a whole, massive culture of complainers and doomspeakers; it's like it is now just an ingrained part of the messages, posts, and attitude irregardless of whether there's actually something to complain about or not.
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Oh, hey. Here's a point that (IIRC) hasn't been brought up or considered yet -- what the Mag'har would do about the people the old Horde fucked over in this new land.
We're feeling guilty as hell and having to try and fix things with the very spirits of the Land, and with the Draenei, because of what Gul'Dan and the old Horde did to them. We feel like we have something to make up for.
So what does that mean when we will learn about all the rest of the people that the Horde screwed over?
What are we going to do for/about them, how would we react to them, etc?
The Mag'har would probably surprise the people of Azeroth with the position and relation they'd take in relation to the Alliance, hmm? They wouldn't want a war at all, after all.
We're feeling guilty as hell and having to try and fix things with the very spirits of the Land, and with the Draenei, because of what Gul'Dan and the old Horde did to them. We feel like we have something to make up for.
So what does that mean when we will learn about all the rest of the people that the Horde screwed over?
What are we going to do for/about them, how would we react to them, etc?
The Mag'har would probably surprise the people of Azeroth with the position and relation they'd take in relation to the Alliance, hmm? They wouldn't want a war at all, after all.
SneakyWalrus
Is the Water Free?
probably an exasperated facepalm on an epic scale
On the draenei, I never got the chance to play WCII, though I totes want to some day if they ever fix it up for modern day which Blizzard said they were doing in 2013....anyhow....
I didn't really know that much about the draenei in the first place, so for now I'm just taking the whole Light and space goats thing. For for the purposes of this story Sargeras wasn't corrupted by the Nathrezim or blah blah, it was much more the whole ravaged by seeing bad shit constantly for epochs of time.
I didn't really know that much about the draenei in the first place, so for now I'm just taking the whole Light and space goats thing. For for the purposes of this story Sargeras wasn't corrupted by the Nathrezim or blah blah, it was much more the whole ravaged by seeing bad shit constantly for epochs of time.
I have another opinion on the Draenei - adapt or die. EDIT: I.E. Blizzard has to adapt and grow with things or their game dies. Arguably it should have died long ago and a new version made that doesn't look like a bleeding cartoon and have utterly nerfed everything.
Chris Metzen freely admitted in an interview that he forgot what was in the WCIII manual. I have the manual and have read it; the "new" version does have more nuance than the older version from the strategy game. Do all the retcons Blizzard tries to stuff down people's throats appeal to me? Not at all but I really don't have any problems with this one that created a deeper story.
Arguably it wasn't a better story; but it does have more depth to it.
@torroar I love your games and have been reading through the threads the last few days. They rock!
Chris Metzen freely admitted in an interview that he forgot what was in the WCIII manual. I have the manual and have read it; the "new" version does have more nuance than the older version from the strategy game. Do all the retcons Blizzard tries to stuff down people's throats appeal to me? Not at all but I really don't have any problems with this one that created a deeper story.
Arguably it wasn't a better story; but it does have more depth to it.
@torroar I love your games and have been reading through the threads the last few days. They rock!
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I always consider the Draenei as almost the archtypical Paladin as a race. Good and righteous, and when they fall, they fall really hard. In a way they are also an eternal refugee race. Always running and hiding from something attempting to kill them.
In a way, those feed into each other. They have faith in the light because it's saved them repeatedly. When they lose faith, their history catches up, and they grab at anything else they can desperately.
The new expansion really emphasizes them a lot more I feel, and quite a bit of the damage dealt to them is from internal strife as well as external forces.
In a way, those feed into each other. They have faith in the light because it's saved them repeatedly. When they lose faith, their history catches up, and they grab at anything else they can desperately.
The new expansion really emphasizes them a lot more I feel, and quite a bit of the damage dealt to them is from internal strife as well as external forces.
Dark Abstraction
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Jorin is Dranosh's best friend, but Dranosh is likely Garrosh's best friend. Though the scenario in question is at least a decade or two down the line, so there's plenty of time to strengthen relationships.
it wasn't so much emotional investment as an utterly unjustifiable alteration to a number of very significant individual things. It utterly changed the backstory for the entire race of the Eredar, who has a pivotal role in the corruption of Sargeras. It changed the entire species of the Draenei, destroying their racial identity needlessly to replace it with stupid shit that had no relation to them at all.
It changed the nature of The Light, both by the new relationship the new Draenei had with it as well as the whole thing with the Naaru, which were basically made up on the spot to serve as awesome holy angels the helped justify the super special holy connection the new Draenei had that made them closer to The Light than anyone else ever. (Human paladins, who were previously the most holy Light-empowered beings we'd yet seen? Their connection to the Light was small compared to the Draenei....for no reason previously established.)
It was basically Blizzzard throwing a bunch of garbage at the wall to make the new race cool and special for the WoW players, while simultaneously throwing hard, established facts about a number of races and a whole magic source into the trash while doing so. None of it was necessary.
The Naaru could certainly have found a place in WoW, but their existence being created whole-cloth to justify the complete destruction and recreation of the Draenei race made them a bitter taste in a lot of player's mouths. And they've been handled rather poorly as a result, because that was their reason for creation by Blizz. Had they been the light-blessed race fleeing pursuit by the Legion, racing from the husk of their demon-consumed world, that would have been much more palatable. They'd have picked a different race to become symbiotic with though, because the entire remnants of the Draenei race joined with Illidan to avoid extinction.
The changes necessary to the Eredar and Sargeras to justify the new Draenei was dumb too. It made the new Draenei into super sad victims of terribad evil from Sargeras, but they were special and got an extra-dimensional prophetic vision from a race of crystal holy space jesus to get away just in time. And then in their cool space-ships powered by holy magic (which was never capable of functioning in that kind of manner previously) they flee to other worlds, eventually settling on Draenor where they're good until the horribad Legion decides to get special revenge on them by making their neighbors go crazy and specifically target them because their special holy connection to holy magic and their grotequely unprecedented technology level that they'd "magically" been able to invent just on the nick of time, was threatening enough to make seem evil. Because of the influence of visions from the previously non-existent race of crystal holy space jesus.
They got turned into a completely different thing than what they were, necessitating a great number of changes to the history of the universe and creation of entirely new other species to justify, and it wasn't even a necessary change since a number of other races which Blizzard would go on to add into WoW anyways would have been far more easily inserted into the game without altering the cosmology.
Another point against the new Draenei was that they were made into a pretty race. The draenei were already a species, they already had a specific general physical form which was cool and didn't need to be changed (slightly stunted mutants, basically), they had racial quirks (semi-permanent invisibility, and a penchant for augmenting it with an assassination-influenced combat style), as well as their spellcasters using arcane magic to do things. They were good to go, as a playable race. And Blizzard threw all of that into the trash to make special holy space-goat equivalents to tauren, and gave them strongly masculine orfeminine facial features and rippling pectorals or "dat ass" hips for their men/women, respectively.
It wasn't justifiable, and it changed too much to be palatable merely for the addition of one single race into the WoW playable race experience. That's why even ~8 years later people are still enraged about this stuff.
It changed the nature of The Light, both by the new relationship the new Draenei had with it as well as the whole thing with the Naaru, which were basically made up on the spot to serve as awesome holy angels the helped justify the super special holy connection the new Draenei had that made them closer to The Light than anyone else ever. (Human paladins, who were previously the most holy Light-empowered beings we'd yet seen? Their connection to the Light was small compared to the Draenei....for no reason previously established.)
It was basically Blizzzard throwing a bunch of garbage at the wall to make the new race cool and special for the WoW players, while simultaneously throwing hard, established facts about a number of races and a whole magic source into the trash while doing so. None of it was necessary.
The Naaru could certainly have found a place in WoW, but their existence being created whole-cloth to justify the complete destruction and recreation of the Draenei race made them a bitter taste in a lot of player's mouths. And they've been handled rather poorly as a result, because that was their reason for creation by Blizz. Had they been the light-blessed race fleeing pursuit by the Legion, racing from the husk of their demon-consumed world, that would have been much more palatable. They'd have picked a different race to become symbiotic with though, because the entire remnants of the Draenei race joined with Illidan to avoid extinction.
The changes necessary to the Eredar and Sargeras to justify the new Draenei was dumb too. It made the new Draenei into super sad victims of terribad evil from Sargeras, but they were special and got an extra-dimensional prophetic vision from a race of crystal holy space jesus to get away just in time. And then in their cool space-ships powered by holy magic (which was never capable of functioning in that kind of manner previously) they flee to other worlds, eventually settling on Draenor where they're good until the horribad Legion decides to get special revenge on them by making their neighbors go crazy and specifically target them because their special holy connection to holy magic and their grotequely unprecedented technology level that they'd "magically" been able to invent just on the nick of time, was threatening enough to make seem evil. Because of the influence of visions from the previously non-existent race of crystal holy space jesus.
They got turned into a completely different thing than what they were, necessitating a great number of changes to the history of the universe and creation of entirely new other species to justify, and it wasn't even a necessary change since a number of other races which Blizzard would go on to add into WoW anyways would have been far more easily inserted into the game without altering the cosmology.
Another point against the new Draenei was that they were made into a pretty race. The draenei were already a species, they already had a specific general physical form which was cool and didn't need to be changed (slightly stunted mutants, basically), they had racial quirks (semi-permanent invisibility, and a penchant for augmenting it with an assassination-influenced combat style), as well as their spellcasters using arcane magic to do things. They were good to go, as a playable race. And Blizzard threw all of that into the trash to make special holy space-goat equivalents to tauren, and gave them strongly masculine orfeminine facial features and rippling pectorals or "dat ass" hips for their men/women, respectively.
It wasn't justifiable, and it changed too much to be palatable merely for the addition of one single race into the WoW playable race experience. That's why even ~8 years later people are still enraged about this stuff.
Also, since I;'ve seen it mentioned a couple times, just a heads-up. The Draenei weren't really a thing in WCII. They became one in WCIII, The Frozen Throne.
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Professor Vesca
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Well they can either help us beat back the legion or get out of our way.
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Why? Their evil brothers/cousins convinced them to do it.
I mean sure I can understand why they'd be pissed, but if they keep it up it would be more than just a tadd hypocritical. At least the Orcs came down from their Fel Induced Madness/High. I haven't heard of any Manarii Eredar that decided being a demon is a bad thing.