Voldemort VS Gandalf The Gray

Ford Prefect said:
I don't think that's totally fair, Voldemort's battle with Dumbledore was pretty slick. The book version of duel between Snape and McGonagall is also fairly impressive, transfiguring and telekinetically controlling fire, turning it into a snake, turning the snake into a hail of flying blades, etc. I'm not really sure that I would say that Voldemort has 'got it' when it comes to defeating Gandalf what it actually did take to kill him, but he's hardly a trivial opponent.
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...right, you know what. 100% fair. It's been like, 15 years since I read the latter half of the series, I forgot the more impressive displays towards the end, but I recently depression-binged the movies back in 2022, and I recall as a teenager really disliking the movies for how they totally failed to capture the magic of the book fights. I concede the point, I maintain that Voldemort would probably lose to Gandalf, but he would serve as a potent threat to the rest of the Fellowship, and might well score a win over them, depending on circumstances and if his own arrogance screws him over.
 
I think when mentioning "Gandalf is an Angel" people are missing something.

Yes he is. And that is why he is restricted. Gandalf and the otehr wizards were specifically sent to defeat Sauron, and the one time we see him REALLY cut loose is against a Balrog--a fallen angel.

Voldemort isn't an angel, greater or lesser, and he isn't from Valinor. Put simply, I don't think Gandalf would go all out because this isn't a job in his wheelhouse. And I especially doubt he'd just go confront him.

The one Voldie might have to worry about is Sauron, because Horcruxes and "I can't die" sound's suspiciously like someone screwing around wth Ring-lore and Sauron has very firm ideas about the sanctity of his IP...
 
Gandalf had the ring on hand and instead of testing it with an axe or wharever he took 17 years reading dusty books until he was sure.

From this we can deduce that his great respect for historial artifacts would prevent him from destroying the horcruxes until he is similarly sure, so he will need at least a century to defeat Voldie for good.
 
Janus said:
Hrm I don't remember Gandalf using telekinesis in the books but I haven't read them in decades.
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He disarms Gimli with a gesture when he meets the Three Hunters in Fangorn (in addition to, not as part and parcel of, making Anduril glow red-hot and setting Legolas's arrow alight). I don't think he does anything similar before being resurrected, however.

EDIT: passage reads
The White Rider said:
The old man was too quick for him. He sprang to his feet and leaped to the top of a large rock. There he stood, grown suddenly tall, towering above them. His hood and his grey rags were flung away. His white garments shone. He lifted up his staff, and Gimli's axe leaped from his grasp and fell ringing on the ground. The sword of Aragorn, stiff in his motionless hand, blazed with a sudden fire. Legolas gave a great shout and shot an arrow high into the air: it vanished in a flash of flame.
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A Small Bird said:
Whereas Voldemort is so efficient as to waste all his time terrorizing a wizard high school and lose in a gambit for personal vengeance. Against, again, school children, despite being backed by his evil cult of evil wizards who he only controls through fear. Nobody in Hogwarts (or those on Voldemort's shitlist, for that matter) are people of legend, merely highly reputable and capable people of magic.
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I don't think this is really fair to Voldemort, given the instance he actually came back to life- in less then like, three years flat, he'd managed to completely subvert the Ministry and rule Hogwarts with an iron fist.

Like, by Book 7, Voldemort wasn't just a rebel fighting against the establishment. He was the fucking establishment, since he and his goons had already taken over the entire thing. The Golden Trio and the Order of the Phoenix were the plucky rebels fighting against the Empire at that point.

Harry, meanwhile, by my count, out of the seven times Voldemort tried to fucking murder him, gets bailed out by plot devices completely out of Voldemort's control all seven times with the exception of the last- the only time he had a chance to kill Harry was his last time with the Elder Wand. Every other time fate seemed to literally contrive to fuck his attempts over.
 
Abstract Ideas said:
I don't think this is really fair to Voldemort, given the instance he actually came back to life- in less then like, three years flat, he'd managed to completely subvert the Ministry and rule Hogwarts with an iron fist.
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This is due to his minions having spent the time he was discorporated setting the stage, the Ministry denying he was back for a full year, and the Ministry being rather shit. Voldemort is also the guy who decided that entering Harry into a deadly tournament and then cheating to help him was the best way to kidnap him instead of just slipping him a portkey on a Hogsmeade weekend, tormented several of his supporters so badly they flipped, trusted the killing curse to kill someone who'd already survived it, sent a teenager to assassinate an enemy leader instead of having a more skilled minion use polyjuice, relied on Dumbledore being too distracted to notice his long-time friend had been replaced by an impostor, and so many other things...
 
Didn't Gandalf sunder Saruman's staff (post return as the White) with a word in both the films and books? "Saruman, your staff is broken."

Sundering seems to be one of Gandalf's abilities, as he did the same to the bridge in the battle against the Balrog as the Grey. The staff of a Maiar seems like it would be much harder to unmake then the wand of a mere wizard. Those things can be snapped in half by someone stepping wrong, even legendary ones like the Elder Wand.
 
Voldemort actually compares to another character from Tolkein's Legendarium: The Witch-King of Angmar.

Now, let's be clear, Voldemort is a little bitch compared to the Witch-King, but you have very similar beats. Death magic? Check. Immortal, bound to an object? Check. Sort of ghostly? Check.

Now, in the movies, the Witch-King was able to overpower Gandalf.

In the books, however, when the Witch-King starts causing issues, Gandalf shows up, asks him if he thinks he's hard enough for a go, at which point the Witch-King promptly nopes his way straight onto the nope train to nopeville and nopes his way out of that fight.
 
Firehawk242 said:
In the books, however, when the Witch-King starts causing issues, Gandalf shows up, asks him if he thinks he's hard enough for a go, at which point the Witch-King promptly nopes his way straight onto the nope train to nopeville and nopes his way out of that fight.
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Which Gandalf I don't recall. Gray or White? This is very important.
 
Firehawk242 said:
In the books, however, when the Witch-King starts causing issues, Gandalf shows up, asks him if he thinks he's hard enough for a go, at which point the Witch-King promptly nopes his way straight onto the nope train to nopeville and nopes his way out of that fight.
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Not that it helped him much. He still managed to meet his maker at the end of Nope Siding in Nope Railyard.
 
Even before Moria, Gandalf was able to drive off an attack by all nine Nazgul on Weathertop, and then draw four of them into a merry chase where he took no hurt. I'm not sure his strictures and proscriptions as the Gray wizard matter overmuch in the analysis.
 
Zimmerwald1915 said:
Even before Moria, Gandalf was able to drive off an attack by all nine Nazgul on Weathertop, and then draw four of them into a merry chase where he took no hurt. I'm not sure his strictures and proscriptions as the Gray wizard matter overmuch in the analysis.
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To be fair, if I remember correctly, the Nazgul fell into a partial exception to his limitations. He was allowed to do more against them than he was against, say, a random orc, owing to the fact that they weren't really mortal anymore. The question then becomes, is Voldemort enough of a crime against God and Man that Gandalf is allowed to use one of his exceptions to bring out more firepower, or does he still count as human?
 
Firehawk242 said:
The question then becomes, is Voldemort enough of a crime against God and Man that Gandalf is allowed to use one of his exceptions to bring out more firepower, or does he still count as human?
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Hm maybe so. Voldemort is not a native of ME, he is something that might be thought of as "not mortal anymore" and is a general big pain in the butt.
 
Firehawk242 said:
To be fair, if I remember correctly, the Nazgul fell into a partial exception to his limitations. He was allowed to do more against them than he was against, say, a random orc, owing to the fact that they weren't really mortal anymore. The question then becomes, is Voldemort enough of a crime against God and Man that Gandalf is allowed to use one of his exceptions to bring out more firepower, or does he still count as human?
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The Horcruxes are pretty explicitly abominations among abominations.
 
Kaiya said:
The Horcruxes are pretty explicitly abominations among abominations.
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The way Tom describes his existence after being hit with the Killing Curse ("less than the meanest ghost, but still. . . alive") is close enough to how Gandalf describes Sauron after the destruction of the Ring ("maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape"), or to how the Nazgul are described as being endlessly attenuated (unable to "grow or obtain more life," "merely continu[ing], until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades, he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the Dark Power that rules the Rings.") that there's some pretty obvious plagiarismliterary inspiration going on.
 
Zimmerwald1915 said:
The way Tom describes his existence after being hit with the Killing Curse ("less than the meanest ghost, but still. . . alive") is close enough to how Gandalf describes Sauron after the destruction of the Ring ("maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape"), or to how the Nazgul are described as being endlessly attenuated (unable to "grow or obtain more life," "merely continu[ing], until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades, he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the Dark Power that rules the Rings.") that there's some pretty obvious plagiarismliterary inspiration going on.
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I think there's a bit of a failure there as well, Voldemort very much did take shape again. He was able to possess and influence multiple people (Quirrel, that lady in Albania), make another Horcrux (Nagini) and also come back into form as a homunculus to go in the cauldron in what was likely quite an idiot proof ritual as Wormtongue Wormtail managed it.

Of course he still loses to Gandalf as Dumbledore is clearly based on him and he planned and executed a perfect long strategy to take him out via a small hobbit Potter. The whole Master of Death being the one who accepts it also comes in there, with Harry basically becoming Frodagorn? Arado? in that scenario.
 
Firehawk242 said:
Voldemort actually compares to another character from Tolkein's Legendarium: The Witch-King of Angmar.

Now, let's be clear, Voldemort is a little bitch compared to the Witch-King, but you have very similar beats. Death magic? Check. Immortal, bound to an object? Check. Sort of ghostly? Check.

Now, in the movies, the Witch-King was able to overpower Gandalf.

In the books, however, when the Witch-King starts causing issues, Gandalf shows up, asks him if he thinks he's hard enough for a go, at which point the Witch-King promptly nopes his way straight onto the nope train to nopeville and nopes his way out of that fight.
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It's actually another use of what Maskedanddanger was talking about in the books, a use of magic based on statement, a performative utterance (also of a similar kind is Frodo's curse upon the ring), where you make a statement and if you are of sufficient power that is now true.

In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl, under the archway that no enemy ever yet had passed, and all fled before his face.

All save one. There waiting, silent and still in the space before the Gate, sat Gandalf upon Shadowfax: Shadowfax who alone among the free horses of the earth endured the terror, unmoving, steadfast as a graven image in Rath Dínen.

'You cannot enter here,' said Gandalf, and the huge shadow halted. 'Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Go back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!'

The Black Rider flung back his hood, and behold! he had a kingly crown; and yet upon no head visible was it set. The red fires shone between it and the mantled shoulders vast and dark. From a mouth unseen there came a deadly laughter.
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(this one is notable because the "fall into nothingness" is probably also part of it, a line enabling Eowyn's later victory.
'Saruman!' he cried, and his voice grew in power and authority. 'Behold, I am not Gandalf the Grey, whom you betrayed. I am Gandalf the White, who has returned from death. You have no colour now, and I cast you from the order and from the Council.'

He raised his hand, and spoke slowly in a clear cold voice. 'Saruman, your staff is broken.' There was a crack, and the staff split asunder in Saruman's hand, and the head of it fell down at Gandalf's feet.
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And, of course, probably most famous of all:

'You cannot pass,' he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. 'I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.'

The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm.

From out of the shadow a red sword leaped flaming.

Glamdring glittered white in answer.

There was a ringing clash and a stab of white fire. The Balrog fell back and its sword flew up in molten fragments. The wizard swayed on the bridge, stepped back a pace, and then again stood still.

'You cannot pass!' he said.

With a bound the Balrog leaped full upon the bridge. Its whip whirled and hissed.

'He cannot stand alone!' cried Aragorn suddenly and ran back along the bridge. 'Elendil!' he shouted. 'I am with you, Gandalf! '

'Gondor!' cried Boromir and leaped after him.

At that moment Gandalf lifted his staff, and crying aloud he smote the bridge before him. The staff broke asunder and fell from his hand. A blinding sheet of white flame sprang up. The bridge cracked. Right at the Balrog's feet it broke, and the stone upon which it stood crashed into the gulf, while the rest remained, poised, quivering like a tongue of rock thrust out into emptiness.

With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward, and its shadow plunged down and vanished. But even as it fell it swung its whip, and the thongs lashed and curled about the wizard's knees, dragging him to the brink. He staggered and fell, grasped vainly at the stone, and slid into the abyss. 'Fly, you fools!' he cried, and was gone.
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It is the true power of the Wizards - of the Maiar - that they are not conjurers of cheap tricks. They know the world, and the world hears them, and it the correct times, in the correct places, it obeys.

Voldemort, for all his malice, for all his undeniable talent, is not close to being that. He is full of cruel magics, evil magics, but, fundamentally, petty magics, fueled by hate and cruelty and sacrifice. The world does not listen to him, and judging by the fact that canonically arranges for one boy to fulfil a centuries-old legend and master death to beat him, really wants him gone quite bad.
 
Estro said:
The world does not listen to him, and judging by the fact that canonically arranges for one boy to fulfil a centuries-old legend and master death to beat him, really wants him gone quite bad.
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"And lo, did the world gazeth upon foul Tom of the cursed house of Riddle, and unto him didst the world decree 'fucketh thee in particular'."
 
Voldemort probably loses but people seem to be ignoring like basically all his higher abilities.

He can raise hundreds/thousands of zombies.

He can fly.

He can turn invisible.

He can make near impenetrable barriers.

He can unleash a gigantic inferno.

He can obliterate buildings.

He possess people.

He can survive being murdered.

He transform objects into whatever he wants.

He can make artificial limbs and full on creatures.

He is fairly capable of plottiing, leading organisations and sussing out his enemies weaknesses.

Gandalf being a demigod can probably handle all that but most other beings on middle earth would be pretty fucked. If Gandalf is down to just swordtricks and the odd burst of power its probably a very drawn out and difficult encounter for him.
 
Mortis Nuntius said:
Gandalf being a demigod can probably handle all that but most other beings on middle earth would be pretty fucked. If Gandalf is down to just swordtricks and the odd burst of power its probably a very drawn out and difficult encounter for him.
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Which is why this is what we're trying to figure out. If Voldy still counts as a normal human, Gandalf has a rough time of it.

If Voldy instead counts as a wraith or something else that Gandalf can bust out some of his real power against, Voldy goes down hard.
 
It's basically entirely subjective. Olorin was given very specific commands to not confront Sauron or his forces directly, only to guide and protect, before he left Valinor to be embodied as Gandalf, so as to avoid accidentallying Middle Earth the way they did Beleriand.

While as an independent evil this does not apply to Voldemort and so the gloves would be off so to speak, as the gloves were on for all of canon (Saruman and the Balrog were independent of Sauron, but as fellow Maiar he played it equally safe with them), and so what Gandalf is actually capable of when he's not under orders to avoid the front lines is left wholly undefined and up to your imagination.

So, inconclusive, character effectively has no feats to judge by.
 
maskedanddanger said:
Didn't Gandalf sunder Saruman's staff (post return as the White) with a word in both the films and books? "Saruman, your staff is broken."

Sundering seems to be one of Gandalf's abilities, as he did the same to the bridge in the battle against the Balrog as the Grey. The staff of a Maiar seems like it would be much harder to unmake then the wand of a mere wizard. Those things can be snapped in half by someone stepping wrong, even legendary ones like the Elder Wand.
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The thing to understand here is that as a Christianity-inspired mythos, this isn't about Gandalf having power, it's about him having authority. He comes back from death after fighting the Balrog with, essentially, a promotion; he's been given Saruman's job because Saruman is obviously fucking up and gone over to the enemy. Thus, whereas before when he confronted Saruman he was imprisoned and could only escape with the help of a powerful ally, now he can just say "Saruman, I called the boss, your wizarding franchise is revoked and you actually don't have powers anymore." And all Saruman can do is be all like "well shit."
 
Simon_Jester said:
The thing to understand here is that as a Christianity-inspired mythos, this isn't about Gandalf having power, it's about him having authority. He comes back from death after fighting the Balrog with, essentially, a promotion; he's been given Saruman's job because Saruman is obviously fucking up and gone over to the enemy. Thus, whereas before when he confronted Saruman he was imprisoned and could only escape with the help of a powerful ally, now he can just say "Saruman, I called the boss, your wizarding franchise is revoked and you actually don't have powers anymore." And all Saruman can do is be all like "well shit."
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That, and Olorin was actually the original candidate for the job anyways, but he was afraid he'd do a bad job of it, so he turned it down, only accepting the role of the Grey Wizard because his bosses really wanted him to go despite his misgivings. Curumo was the second place pick for the job, and always kind of resented Olorin for that.

So really, this was more a case of Eru Illuvitar and the Valar looking at Gandalf and pointing at Saruman and saying "See? See? This shit is why we wanted you to be the White Wizard! No more excuses, yes, you are capable, go unfuck the situation!"
 
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