Traveller, The Rise of Empire: A Naval Design, Procurement and Command Quest
- Thread starter 4WheelSword
- Start date
- Original Art Quest Sci-Fi
[x] OPLAN: Cold Noctocalling
-[x] Our yards:
--[x] Hermosan Station (2.5k tons)
--[x] Additional Flight II Frigates x2 (1k tons, 500 ton each)
--[x] CFA A flight II with enhancements from newest technology (armor, enhanced weapons packages) x1 (3k tons)
-[x] Paying the Aslan extortionate prices to build ships in their yards.
--[x] Additional modern defense station flight II from Aslan yards with upgraded armor and sensors x2 (2500 tons each)
-[x] Converting civilian yards to war-use. We could build merchant cruisers and converted patrol ships here, though not line ships.
--[x] Additional auxiliary minelaying craft x1
-[x] Scout Flotilla
--[x] Map out the North and find our Enemy.
-[x] Other - run training minelaying mission in Deep Hope. Determine how many mines our minelayer can lay and how quickly. Run exercises with mines "firing" inactive weapons on a pair of ICs - to check if there would be targetting issues, nd just how saturating would be a salvo from 1 minelayer's wotrth of mines. Check how well ICs and frigates can detect and target the mines.
-[x] Other - Select some suitable ship(s) (maybe un-mothball the MMV?) and contact Noctocole. Warn them about this sudden northern threat, with info both from our run-in with them and whatever we've got from Aslan. Exchange the starmaps, preferably on North (and brief them on Hermosa too). Inquire if they are interested in defence cooperation, such as a common ship project, since we have at least two "interesting" common neighbours. We can get their diplomatic team to Cassalon and discuss that there.
This plan is a bit light on civilian/Aslan shipbuilding - that is because I propose to keep some money until we learn if there is opportunity to spend them on some project with Noctocole (my hope that it would be relatively cheaper than renting yards from Aslan). If no, we would pour them into more minelayers/Aslan yards.
And if the events would turn bad enough that we would neitither have opportunities with "westerners" nor could wait for new ships being built, we would still be able to splurge on Aslan mercs directly.
-[x] Our yards:
--[x] Hermosan Station (2.5k tons)
--[x] Additional Flight II Frigates x2 (1k tons, 500 ton each)
--[x] CFA A flight II with enhancements from newest technology (armor, enhanced weapons packages) x1 (3k tons)
-[x] Paying the Aslan extortionate prices to build ships in their yards.
--[x] Additional modern defense station flight II from Aslan yards with upgraded armor and sensors x2 (2500 tons each)
-[x] Converting civilian yards to war-use. We could build merchant cruisers and converted patrol ships here, though not line ships.
--[x] Additional auxiliary minelaying craft x1
-[x] Scout Flotilla
--[x] Map out the North and find our Enemy.
-[x] Other - run training minelaying mission in Deep Hope. Determine how many mines our minelayer can lay and how quickly. Run exercises with mines "firing" inactive weapons on a pair of ICs - to check if there would be targetting issues, nd just how saturating would be a salvo from 1 minelayer's wotrth of mines. Check how well ICs and frigates can detect and target the mines.
-[x] Other - Select some suitable ship(s) (maybe un-mothball the MMV?) and contact Noctocole. Warn them about this sudden northern threat, with info both from our run-in with them and whatever we've got from Aslan. Exchange the starmaps, preferably on North (and brief them on Hermosa too). Inquire if they are interested in defence cooperation, such as a common ship project, since we have at least two "interesting" common neighbours. We can get their diplomatic team to Cassalon and discuss that there.
This plan is a bit light on civilian/Aslan shipbuilding - that is because I propose to keep some money until we learn if there is opportunity to spend them on some project with Noctocole (my hope that it would be relatively cheaper than renting yards from Aslan). If no, we would pour them into more minelayers/Aslan yards.
And if the events would turn bad enough that we would neitither have opportunities with "westerners" nor could wait for new ships being built, we would still be able to splurge on Aslan mercs directly.
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Thanks—I was going to suggest saving some of our budget if this was a one-time injection, but since this will last as long as tensions do we should be safe to spend it all on quick builds.
[X] OPLAN: Shipyard Growth, Stage 1
In our yards:
-[X] Hermosan border station - 2,500 tons
-[X] Other - write in: 4,000 ton subsection of the new construction facility
-[X] Map out the North and find our Enemy.
-[X] Paying the Aslan extortionate prices to build ships in their yards.
--[X] To build as large of a construction facility (minus the separate sections built in our yards) as we can afford and they can transport via jump tugs to Home
-[X] Converting civilian yards to war-use. We could build merchant cruisers and converted patrol ships here, though not line ships.
--[X] Whatever small subsections of the new construction facility they can manage
-[x] Other - run training minelaying mission in Deep Hope. Determine how many mines our minelayer can lay and how quickly. Run exercises with mines "firing" inactive weapons on a pair of ICs - to check if there would be targetting issues, nd just how saturating would be a salvo from 1 minelayer's wotrth of mines. Check how well ICs and frigates can detect and target the mines.
-[x] Other - Select some suitable ship(s) (maybe un-mothball the MMV?) and contact Noctocole. Warn them about this sudden northern threat, with info both from our run-in with them and whatever we've got from Aslan. Exchange the starmaps, preferably on North (and brief them on Hermosa too). Inquire if they are interested in defence cooperation, such as a common ship project, since we have at least two "interesting" common neighbours. We can get their diplomatic team to Cassalon and discuss that there.
I have to take back everything I said before because I just discovered we can directly make new construction yards ourselves and that instantly jumps up to my #1 priority:
Basically, if we have a yard which can build a 10,060 ton ship, then we can build a construction deck and a powerplant/support space as two separate halves, connect them, and get 5,000 tons of permanent build capacity out of it.
I don't know what the largest shipyard in Aslan space is, or how large of an item they can tow via a Jump net, but I'm assuming that Section will let us know if it's small (in which case we should try and clear out our own yard space so that we can build a very large vessel with a big construction deck). My end goal is for us to have something like Ford River Rouge, where we're building a huge space station that has coupled sections capable of providing power, refining ore, housing workers, and making new spacecraft so that we can churn out more and more military hulls.
In our yards:
-[X] Hermosan border station - 2,500 tons
-[X] Other - write in: 4,000 ton subsection of the new construction facility
-[X] Map out the North and find our Enemy.
-[X] Paying the Aslan extortionate prices to build ships in their yards.
--[X] To build as large of a construction facility (minus the separate sections built in our yards) as we can afford and they can transport via jump tugs to Home
-[X] Converting civilian yards to war-use. We could build merchant cruisers and converted patrol ships here, though not line ships.
--[X] Whatever small subsections of the new construction facility they can manage
-[x] Other - run training minelaying mission in Deep Hope. Determine how many mines our minelayer can lay and how quickly. Run exercises with mines "firing" inactive weapons on a pair of ICs - to check if there would be targetting issues, nd just how saturating would be a salvo from 1 minelayer's wotrth of mines. Check how well ICs and frigates can detect and target the mines.
-[x] Other - Select some suitable ship(s) (maybe un-mothball the MMV?) and contact Noctocole. Warn them about this sudden northern threat, with info both from our run-in with them and whatever we've got from Aslan. Exchange the starmaps, preferably on North (and brief them on Hermosa too). Inquire if they are interested in defence cooperation, such as a common ship project, since we have at least two "interesting" common neighbours. We can get their diplomatic team to Cassalon and discuss that there.
I have to take back everything I said before because I just discovered we can directly make new construction yards ourselves and that instantly jumps up to my #1 priority:
Basically, if we have a yard which can build a 10,060 ton ship, then we can build a construction deck and a powerplant/support space as two separate halves, connect them, and get 5,000 tons of permanent build capacity out of it.
I don't know what the largest shipyard in Aslan space is, or how large of an item they can tow via a Jump net, but I'm assuming that Section will let us know if it's small (in which case we should try and clear out our own yard space so that we can build a very large vessel with a big construction deck). My end goal is for us to have something like Ford River Rouge, where we're building a huge space station that has coupled sections capable of providing power, refining ore, housing workers, and making new spacecraft so that we can churn out more and more military hulls.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] OPLAN: Cold Noctocalling
I would not put my hopes on being able to build our ships from Noctocoles yards from what we know of them. Assuming Plenty is the same TL as the rest of their republic, they would only be able to build ships up to TL8 if they even have a military shipbuilding industry to speak of in the first place.
I would not put my hopes on being able to build our ships from Noctocoles yards from what we know of them. Assuming Plenty is the same TL as the rest of their republic, they would only be able to build ships up to TL8 if they even have a military shipbuilding industry to speak of in the first place.
0t4n1z3r019
Member of the HAFPTG
- Location
- Philippines
[X] OPLAN: Cold Noctocalling
12-1: A new Style of Warfare
4WheelSword
The original N-body Problem
- Pronouns
- It/She/They
What is the HSWS construction plan for the new year? See Update
What is the Scout Flotilla assigned? Map out the North and find our Enemy.
There are several ways we could build additional hulls simultaneously. Which ones appeal? Paying the Aslan extortionate prices to build ships in their yards. Converting civilian yards to war-use.
Available Budget: 6,000MCr
Current Dockyard Usage: 14,900/21,500Dtons
Current Pilot Usage: 81/100
Construction
With new yards coming online, new ships can also be laid down along side the massive vessels already under construction. The spine of a fourth and fifth escort frigate are tucked in on either side of the patrol carrier, the tiny vessels dwarfed by the two-thirds complete capital ship. The Hermosan diplomatic station (which will be placed in Heimdall) is sectioned off from the other construction by semi-permeable barriers in order to allow the MIC to crawl all over it without concern. Finally, the HSWS will begin construction of the first ever Flight II Cruiser, Fast Attack, an enhanced version of the CFA which uses the space saved from modern armour alloys in order to increase its number of missile tubes from seventy-two to one-hundred-and-twenty. This is a two-thirds increase in launch capability, and the ships magazine is increased commensurately.
The better protected and up-gunned CFA-AfII
Current Dockyard Usage: 21,400/21,500Dtons
With half of the budget spent and the yards more full than they have any right to be, the HSWS turns to other polities for assistance in depleting its over-full coffers. The Aslan agree to build the first MDS flight II, a redesigned version with thicker armour , 25% more torpedo tubes and modernised crew spaces to ensure that the almost fifty crew of these deadly platforms will be relatively comfortable during their three-month tours of duty. This comes at a price, of course - while the hull costs just a little over 470MCr, the Aslan will be taking a full billion credits from the HSWS for the privilege of building it for us.
Half of the new MDS is devoted to torpedo tubes
Finally, 4,000Dtons of civilian yards is sequestered for military use, to build an additional Merchant, Modular with a Mine Warfare Module. The economic costs of reserving this space will be minimal, given that most of the civilian yards are still going to be open and it will allow crews to continue work while other ships are fitting out. This second Modular Merchant will increase logistic and mine-laying capacity of the HSWS by another 25%, assuming the correct modules are purchased.
Available Budget: 1,299.53MCr
Mine Training Operations
Five ships head to Deep Hope at the usual change over time, rather than the usual two. Once there, HSLS Alakshmi spends a week mining the debris field left behind around the trojan rock that the Mining Station once orbited. The mines it drops are not armed, instead using a dummy system that will allow safe training efforts. Each will essentially pretend it has a pair of torpedoes aboard and will use targeting and burst transmission software to declare shots fired on the targeted ship.
The cruisers and frigates find detecting the presence of the minefield relatively easy. Even spaced out, the field around such a small body as a trojan comet is absurdly dense, with deeply overlapping fields of fire even for those mines that rest on the edge of the field. A self-proclaimed 'mine warfare specialist' (Technical Sergeant Halim Burakgazi) notes that it would likely be more than possible for the field to be sewn much less densely and still provide active coverage to a very broad area. Nonetheless, the ships attempt an approach as scheduled in their orders.
It is less easy to detect individual mines. Running dark with passive sensors listening, each mine is a tiny metallic object in a hazy cloud of a thousand tiny metallic objects. Neither the cruisers nor the frigates are able to chart a path through such a dense field, and weapons fire simply places the rest of the field on active alert. Late in the course of the operation, an interstellar cruiser simulates 'stumbling' into the minefield. A rapid series of burst transmissions is detected between an entire cluster of the dense minefields and, shortly afterwards, the cruiser is informed that it has been targeted by a hundred and fifty torpedoes with an estimated impact time of twenty-three minutes. Through evasive action and precision fire, the simulated impacts are reduced to 'just' 75 torpedoes which would be sufficient in any universe to completely annihilate the cruiser.
A more 'fair' test is conducted a few days later, as a simulated minefield is deployed consisting of just fifteen platforms, estimating the density that the HSWS may wish to place around a gas giant to deny fuelling or around a planet that they wish to protect and defend. In this case, the frigate is able to slowly, painstakingly, inch its way through the minefield, detecting and evading several platforms. However, it is detected by the fourth it encounters and though neither of the two torpedoes slips through the frigates PD net, the field enters an active state and shortly after is able to saturate the frigate with sixteen simultaneous launches which do 'significant' damage to the frigate.
The HSWS currently maintains a single mine-laying platform which can lay and maintain almost 3,000 tons of mines. The current mine warfare doctrine is non-existent. That changes now:
What should be protected by mine fields? Select as many as appropriate:
[ ] Major populated planets
[ ] Stations and Orbital Infrastructure
[ ] Moons in occupied systems
[ ] Gas Giants
What should the density of our mine fields be?
[ ] The maximum useful density
[ ] A moderate number, enough to dissuade approaches
[ ] Just enough to let an enemy know we don't like them.
What sort of mines would we prefer to deploy?
[ ] Minimum torpedo launchers
[ ] Maximum size torpedo launchers
[ ] Nuclear proximity mines
[ ] Bomb-pumped lasers
With various missions dispatched - the Scout Flotilla to the North, an ad-hoc diplomatic force to Noctocole and the diplomatic courier in Ba Kim, the HSWS is in a holding pattern, waiting for news. Hopefully, whatever comes back is positive.
Please present votes as plans. Voting opens at
4WheelSword
The original N-body Problem
- Pronouns
- It/She/They
yeah definitely feel free to write up a thorough mine warfare doctrine.
- Location
- USA
Dont our rules of war forbid nuclear weapons? How would the mines be legal?
Mines aren't forbidden. At least not all types of mines. If someone wanted to object to their use it would be on the grounds of an expansive interpretation on weapons "designed or found to be inimical to normal civilian life".
The mines aren't nuclear. They would hold other kinds of torpedo and missile.
[x] Plan mission-based defence
-[x] Doctrine is that 1) very valuable locations should either be able to defend themselves or be able to hold out with few losses for 2 weeks; 2) raids on valuable locations should cost an attacker significantly more than their replacement costs us.
--[x] All populations of greater than 1 million people and critical military infrastructure (drydocks) are to be defended at all times by a combination of mines, defence stations and garrison ships such that they can fight any of these forces to at least a stalemate for 2 weeks with minimal population loss (preferably by destroying the attacker): 1) a lone ship of similar capacity to any of our patrol cruiser; monitor; or the deep-hope attacker jumping in at minimum distance and attacking; 2) a fleet of similar capacity to the expeditionary fleet or 8 Hermosan Broadsword-class vessels plus mothership jumping in at either minimum distance or at sufficient distance to regroup and then advance
--[x] Very high-value military and economic infrastructure, such as critical food, mining, and fuel operations; etc are to be defended at all times from from a lone ship jumping in at minimum distance of similar capacity to any of the deep-hope attacker; our current best cruiser; the best cruiser known to be used by the Hermosans
--[x] Lower value infrastructure is to be defended sporadically against such attacks such that an attacker cannot know if they will be opposed if they were to jump at short range.
--[x] Refuelling from gas giants in our territory is to be made risky for raiders or other unauthorised ships.
-[x] If this is not economically feasible then the strategy office is instructed to explain why and issue a counter-offer.
I would also like the expeditionary fleet to destroy anything of military value in the deep hope wreckage and minefield and withdraw to Xyri as its temporary garrison fleet. Deep Hope to be attended only by a courier to warn of visits by other vessels or a courier plus a ship with decent sensors if the courier would have been unable to detect the deep-hope attacker. But I'm not including that in the plan because y'all love to garrison empty sectors.
[x] Plan mission-based defence
-[x] Doctrine is that 1) very valuable locations should either be able to defend themselves or be able to hold out with few losses for 2 weeks; 2) raids on valuable locations should cost an attacker significantly more than their replacement costs us.
--[x] All populations of greater than 1 million people and critical military infrastructure (drydocks) are to be defended at all times by a combination of mines, defence stations and garrison ships such that they can fight any of these forces to at least a stalemate for 2 weeks with minimal population loss (preferably by destroying the attacker): 1) a lone ship of similar capacity to any of our patrol cruiser; monitor; or the deep-hope attacker jumping in at minimum distance and attacking; 2) a fleet of similar capacity to the expeditionary fleet or 8 Hermosan Broadsword-class vessels plus mothership jumping in at either minimum distance or at sufficient distance to regroup and then advance
--[x] Very high-value military and economic infrastructure, such as critical food, mining, and fuel operations; etc are to be defended at all times from from a lone ship jumping in at minimum distance of similar capacity to any of the deep-hope attacker; our current best cruiser; the best cruiser known to be used by the Hermosans
--[x] Lower value infrastructure is to be defended sporadically against such attacks such that an attacker cannot know if they will be opposed if they were to jump at short range.
--[x] Refuelling from gas giants in our territory is to be made risky for raiders or other unauthorised ships.
-[x] If this is not economically feasible then the strategy office is instructed to explain why and issue a counter-offer.
I would also like the expeditionary fleet to destroy anything of military value in the deep hope wreckage and minefield and withdraw to Xyri as its temporary garrison fleet. Deep Hope to be attended only by a courier to warn of visits by other vessels or a courier plus a ship with decent sensors if the courier would have been unable to detect the deep-hope attacker. But I'm not including that in the plan because y'all love to garrison empty sectors.
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4WheelSword
The original N-body Problem
- Pronouns
- It/She/They
Oh absolutely not. They would violate the articles.
So part of what's important isn't just the density of the minefield, but the depth of it. I'd prefer a low density field, but one at a stand-off distance from what we're defending both so that mutual destruction is more difficult and so that an attacker can't outrun the torpedoes while escaping. To visually represent it, it'd be laid out like so:
I'd like to select "all of the above" for defending, with the possible exception of moons - is there a strategic advantage that can be obtained by gaining access to an unoccupied moon? Gas giants make sense to deny a raider the ability to refuel (although this is low priority), and populated planets and orbital infrastructure obviously need defences.
As for the type of mine, I'd go for whichever torpedo launcher has the longest lifetime, alongside a mix of remote sensors and decoy mines. The sensors can relay the detection of a spacecraft to a central command station, and since they're dispersed, allow for more easy triangulation of positions. The central station can then send out a launch command with a time-on-target component, ensuring all the torpedoes arrive in one mass to best saturate point defence (albeit with a delay). By having the sensors not be located on the launch platforms, we don't have to worry about revealing the location of the launchers when the sensors warm up their transmitters to send messages to the command station. Decoys are obviously mixed in to disguise the density of the field and make demining a slower process.
I'd like to select "all of the above" for defending, with the possible exception of moons - is there a strategic advantage that can be obtained by gaining access to an unoccupied moon? Gas giants make sense to deny a raider the ability to refuel (although this is low priority), and populated planets and orbital infrastructure obviously need defences.
As for the type of mine, I'd go for whichever torpedo launcher has the longest lifetime, alongside a mix of remote sensors and decoy mines. The sensors can relay the detection of a spacecraft to a central command station, and since they're dispersed, allow for more easy triangulation of positions. The central station can then send out a launch command with a time-on-target component, ensuring all the torpedoes arrive in one mass to best saturate point defence (albeit with a delay). By having the sensors not be located on the launch platforms, we don't have to worry about revealing the location of the launchers when the sensors warm up their transmitters to send messages to the command station. Decoys are obviously mixed in to disguise the density of the field and make demining a slower process.
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
The main thing to worry about with mines in a system with a lot of civilian traffic is mishaps and accidents, although if there's a control station that's less of an issue - since presumably if we have something coming in hot, they can squawk the civvies to get out of the way.
Luminous
God Save The Queen
- Location
- Victoria, BC, Canada
Mining the Orbitals of entire planets and moons seems rather difficult to do at scale. Stations and orbital instilations could probably be mined to a reasonable degree.
Historicaly, most minefields are marked. A signal bouy indicating a mine field shouldn't be difficult to include if need be.
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Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
Yeah, I think we want mines around our orbital infrastructure and stations; I'm not sure preventing people from dipping into our gas giants without a ship actually being there is feasible at scale right now.
Mines are ideally controlled by a central command station that sends out a signal saying "ignitethe thermal battery, start tracking target at these polar coordinates, and launch to intercept at this time". That means the torpedoes are less likely to be wasted on decoys or fired at civilian traffic, and we get the most coincidental torpedo hits.
It's doable for them because we'd be trying to have a very sparse minefield; we're targeting fairly weak ships that are conducting refuelling ops. Harassing fire should be enough, so we really don't need a lot. It's also very low priority.
Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
In many ways the ideal minefield is a Notice to Mariners. It has to be treated as real until several successful transits.
Doesn't work as well in space though. Mines are more easily detected. Space makes up for that with an ease of command activation, though, which ought to cut down on accidents.