character development is a fascinating thing
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Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
I don't agree. In the Outer Sect, there were commoner disciples who had to rely on turning sect points into RSS to afford basic cultivation past Red 1. In the Inner Sect, disciples are given access to Argent Vents and a stipend of YSS that covers basic cultivation needs. Additionally, the way that spirit stones work means that a spirit stone is a pretty mild benefit until you're using two of them, which the 1/month model doesn't permit.
If a disciple is poor, they're more likely to simply sell the GSS they earn with sect points than they were under the previous system. If a disciple is not poor, then the benefit compared to other things they could be doing with their time isn't great. The sect point -> GSS model appears to be less appealing as a cultivation aid for, well, everyone as far as I can tell. In-character. It's also a scheduling nightmare for us out of character because of variable sect job payouts and the low per-turn cap.
I take all credit.
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Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Hmm.
Honestly, it might just be better to not make Spirit Stones buyable by Sect Points. Just leave Sect Points as stuff that buys kickers and opens up plotlines in my opinion, and just increase the amount of stones gained by increasing rank, to encourage that. Or alternately, have Sect Duties give Spirit Stones as well as Contribution Points (Since it's not just trading skills around among the Inner Sect economy, it's actually doing work for the Sect, and thus deserves more than Contribution Points)
Like, keeping the discounted exchange for the first month as sort of a grace period for a new graduation, but otherwise.
Honestly, it might just be better to not make Spirit Stones buyable by Sect Points. Just leave Sect Points as stuff that buys kickers and opens up plotlines in my opinion, and just increase the amount of stones gained by increasing rank, to encourage that. Or alternately, have Sect Duties give Spirit Stones as well as Contribution Points (Since it's not just trading skills around among the Inner Sect economy, it's actually doing work for the Sect, and thus deserves more than Contribution Points)
Like, keeping the discounted exchange for the first month as sort of a grace period for a new graduation, but otherwise.
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Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
But yeah, that seems the best solution. Have Sect Duties give so many YSS based on how many CP you get out of it.
"Sect Jobs" are engaging in the favor-economy of the Sect community--a simulation of what Cultivators do to get what they need for their passion projects and personal Cultivation. "Sect Duties" are what you should be 'Doing for a living', getting the hard currency and recognition needed to rise in the ranks of the Imperial Hierarchy.
And considering that--as of now--we have no idea what CP are even good for outside of "You need these to do Challenges, and you need an unknown but presumably high value to gain ranks above 500" Giving another incentive to do Duties aside from a mysterious but presumably powerful resource (That we can't even spend yet outside of rank challenges) seems like a good idea.
"Sect Jobs" are engaging in the favor-economy of the Sect community--a simulation of what Cultivators do to get what they need for their passion projects and personal Cultivation. "Sect Duties" are what you should be 'Doing for a living', getting the hard currency and recognition needed to rise in the ranks of the Imperial Hierarchy.
And considering that--as of now--we have no idea what CP are even good for outside of "You need these to do Challenges, and you need an unknown but presumably high value to gain ranks above 500" Giving another incentive to do Duties aside from a mysterious but presumably powerful resource (That we can't even spend yet outside of rank challenges) seems like a good idea.
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Arkeus
Crazy cat guy
- Location
- France
I think we are at the point very soon where we'll want to stockpile GSS for cultivation use, so that's fine.
Yeah, Something here is that having Spirit Stones buyable by Sect Points keeps us having a weird 'How much RSS is worth a AP' calculation going in the background, and that's I think counter-productive for having a healthy planmaking.
Better let the actual sect point at least somewhat divorced from pure money so that we can't do a simple calculation like this.
Those would be values for talent 3 and 4, respectively.
It should e noted that art XP multipliers actually don't stack multiplicatively. If you have 1.7x thanks to a site and +.7x from the art elements or meridians, it adds up to 2.4x, not 2.89x. The benefit from each bonus is the same regardless of other such bonuses.
What does stack is the number of dice, the number of successes per diem, and art multipliers. E.g. using more resources to get extra dice and taking time in a rare site would stack, and both stack with Talent or talent-esque boosts like the rerolling of 1s that we got from AS.
Unless we have no way of getting more spirit stones though that will exist regardless.
Just increase our Yellow stone allowance from the sect and call it a day. (I had actually thought our original yss income was already such a replacement).
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Forbidding arbitrage isn't a bad idea imo, though maybe Renxiang can pay us in RSS some months if that's the case so we aren't awkwardly selling our other GSS.
Well, or replace it with 20 YS + 1 GS allowance.
And I would be very happy if arbitrage was just forbidden.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I'm okay with forbidding arbitrage.
Geh, forgot about the 'below talent' threshold on the d10 as opposed to 'equal to talent'. Adjusted.
I know, that's the 'stacking' that I was referring to - the additive increase in the success multiplier.
I can see where others might have missed that.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I'm almost certain this has been discussed in the old thread but I don't remember it, who else is getting the impression that Ren-Ren's light mantle is a better window into the health of her emotional state than much else?
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yeah it's definitely used that way, though whether she can fake it (yet) I don't know.
Noting we actually want some lower terminus arts to interview for domain slots as well(at a measured pace, rather than a big surge as all favorite arts master at once). Message is independent of art level after all.
We got quite a few slots, and I think incrementally assessing them piecemeal is better for thread stability
Heaven and Mountain are...not naturally good at deceit. I expect if she can hide it, its via Malfean Stealth.
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So poking at the character sheet stuff:
Eight Phase Ceremony:
[*]Cultivation, Night, Moon, Perceptiveness, Stellar, Yin.
[*]Qi, Stealth
A little odd here, it trains Stealth, but not Perception? Think thats a tag that might want to appear twice
Sable Crescent Step
[*]Darkness, Moon, Motion, Shadows, Yin
[*]Dance, Dodge, Dexterity, Stealth, Wits
Shadowdancer go~
Forgotten Vale Melody
[*]Darkness, Loss, Music, Perseverance, Water, Yin
[*]Composure, Manipulation,
Like EPC, I think the Music probably wants to be duplicated as its both a trainable skill and an element.
Also I think the Damaging Doots wandered off somewhere?
Frozen Soul Serenade
[*]Cold, Dark, Endings, Water, Yin
[*]Presence, Music
I assume Frozen Soul Serenade probably should have Music as one of its descriptor tags as well? The Skill That Is A Descriptor complicates things a bit.
This is going to be absolutely SAVAGE when he breaks through.
Eight Phase Ceremony:
[*]Cultivation, Night, Moon, Perceptiveness, Stellar, Yin.
[*]Qi, Stealth
A little odd here, it trains Stealth, but not Perception? Think thats a tag that might want to appear twice
Sable Crescent Step
[*]Darkness, Moon, Motion, Shadows, Yin
[*]Dance, Dodge, Dexterity, Stealth, Wits
Shadowdancer go~
Quick, raise Unarmed to C!
Forgotten Vale Melody
[*]Darkness, Loss, Music, Perseverance, Water, Yin
[*]Composure, Manipulation,
Like EPC, I think the Music probably wants to be duplicated as its both a trainable skill and an element.
Also I think the Damaging Doots wandered off somewhere?
Missed a linebreak for Despair of the Lost.
Frozen Soul Serenade
[*]Cold, Dark, Endings, Water, Yin
[*]Presence, Music
I assume Frozen Soul Serenade probably should have Music as one of its descriptor tags as well? The Skill That Is A Descriptor complicates things a bit.
As an aside, Erupting Zhengui Fever deals some pretty impressive damage.
This is going to be absolutely SAVAGE when he breaks through.
- Location
- United States of America
So, an interesting comparison here is that a green stone costs 30 sect points (currently, Yrs may change) and a Cultivation aid from a junior Pillmaker costs 30 sect points or 60 sect points from a Senior Pillmaker. Which means... does a "rare" pill with unique effects cost the same as a green stone?
While our system for gaining resources hasn't fully been developed (given that we haven't further developed our sources of sustainable income), we have decided to auction off the 4th grade Death mirror. Given the potency of the talisman and the... historical value of finding it in a Weilu tomb, we should be able to sell it for an incredible amount. I believe the number that was previously given was around 13,000 RSS. Given the amount of GSS that can purchase should fuel our cultivation for at least several months I would think that getting rare pills would be a more useful expenditure of our sect points. Unless we can purchase those rare pills with spirit stones, then the using it for tutoring would probably be the best option. Getting tutoring from Core students should be extremely valuable.
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Well, let's ignore qualitative unlocks (such as why we might want dance tutoring), and focus on the stone/pills economy.
Of the top of my head I think we pull ~60-65xp per AP with our current standard resource use. This means that, if we spend 2 actions on missions to get something we want to be getting more than 120xp back. This means ~240 dice - and since the economy should make sense for people at talent 5 as well, arguably more.
With that in mind let's look at GSS. 1 GSS give us +30/4 dice atm. This means we get 7.5 dice/action. At 16 cultivation actions that would be 120 dice. Not really worth.
If we get virtual GSS things change. At that point a GS gives +70/4 dice, or 17.5/ap. This would be +350 dice for a full 20 ap month, or 280 for 16ap. Worth for us, borderline for talent 5's.
Similar calcs can be done for pills.
Edit: wait, no. Didn't account for multipliers. Currently our bonuses range from about 1.2 - 1.6 for most stuff. Need at least x2 for base GSS to be worth. Second GSS pretty great though.
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- Location
- United States of America
While I don't disagree with the calcs for the green stone, I think that the calculations for pills will actually have to be different, if only because pills seem to cheat the AP system. For instance, take the silver blood pill, a strong pill made by an outer sect member, which means that the stuff we could actually get would probably be stronger.
Now, the ten dice are pretty... meaningless in my opinion. But the 1/10th of the resulting successes looks like a way to cheat AP restrictions. For instance, even with Green stones, we still need to spend AP training what we want to train, we just get more out of each AP spent. With the Silver Blood Pill, you don't need to spend AP on spiritual or physical cultivation to get successes in it, meaning that you can use that AP for something else.
Now, 1/10th doesn't seem like a lot, but it can add up pretty quickly. For instance, if we do... train the argent arts (I'm convinced the strongest reason is this pill) with 12 ap then we could get in excess of 60xp to both spiritual and physical, which given the calculations you used above is equal to about 2 AP. And this is with the silver blood pill, which I'm sure there is stronger stuff in the Inner Sect from junior pill makers.
Which means that pills from Junior pill makers might simply net us effectively more AP then we spend on getting the points to acquire them. So if there is a decision to get a GSS with sect points or a pill from a junior pill maker, it seems that a pill would be the better choice, from the limited information we have.
Arkeus
Crazy cat guy
- Location
- France
I'd say that incrementally assessing them is awful for thread stability? We currently have (5-1) slot available, and at appraisal we'll get (8-1) until Green 6. Yrsillar is currently thinking that cultivation art could be slotted.
This means that we have 7 discrete slots for EPC, AG, FVM, FSS, PLR, TRF, SCS, AE, AC, AS, AP, and up to 7 different+ new arts we'll be picking up. An art's popularity will very often be most popular when it's actively being trained, and it's hard to assess the exact message of art that we are very early in their training, either.
Incrementally assessing art for slotting purpose is basically a recipe for making every single monthly plan vote a battle because the first few arts to finish will have a huge advantage compared to the next few when we'll actually be feeling the slot shortage, and it will promote perverse incentives like 'I want to get a really low level stealth art as I want stealth to be a major part of our domain and it's the only way this is possible'.
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While I agree with your general point, I want to mention that you can currently intuit the art general lesson by looking at its description.
Sure, it will be colored by Ling Qi's domain and experiences using it; but you should be able to guess the general lesson by the art's info blurb unless it is too unfocused to have a coherent theme.
(For instance, Argent Current is about striking together as one and would probably give bonuses to focus firing along with allies)
Arkeus
Crazy cat guy
- Location
- France
Not only don't I consider the general lesson that easy to intuit, but I don't consider the general lesson to be enough for knowing whether we want to slot an art.
My own personal list for slotting arts we know of is is EPC/FVM/PLR> FSS > TRF > SCS > AE/AC > AG > AP > AS, for example, but a good part of this will depend on the actual details for TRF as well as the general lesson for SCS.
I want the detail of the lesson of TRF to be about Ling Qi being a mighty tree bringing health to the loved ones under her branches. Not 'help defend against an enemy' or 'defence', but 'general quality of life' or 'health'. That, and I want this lesson to be compatible to the overall lesson we are planning for Ling Qi's theme (Which I should be making a post about hopefully).
I want the general lesson of SCS to not be about stealth and not be about infiltrating an enemy's stronghold and never being stopped, but rather about being a trickster worming her way into the heart of her friends. Which is, well, fairly unlikely.