[X] Let Hanyi perform with the current choreography. Make sure this Stream doesn't cause trouble personally. (100% Success, +1 Power Success, ??? consequences. Reduced Clergy Reputation.)
Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
EternalObserver
eYe Gaze baCk
- Location
- The Void
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Now, my feelings on the vote.
Option three is written Really ambiguously, and that's my chief concern here. There is absolutely a way to mitigate the hit here--namely, approach him before the performance, play it up as him getting a special performance because he's so gorgeous and all that and it's most definitely not because someone played silly buggers with the script, but as written, it seems to imply Ling Qi is just going to react to his own reaction, which is going to be a problem, because River Gods are vengeful, nigh impossible to kill for more than a season or two, and react to slights by going on temper tantrums that flood the region.
"Reduced Opinion from Clergy" is also ambiguous. Does it mean "You still get rep, just less of it than you could have?" Does it mean "You actually offended them here?" They like either Ling Qi stepping in or Hanyi stepping up and doing it properly here--which does strongly suggest that the Clergy as a whole aren't complicit in this fuckery--though the fact that this is literally the first time anyone's noticing that we're missing a step is suspicious, because that suggests someone is actively fucking with the Mail--and that's an Imperial Ministry which implies Serious fucking muscle.
EDIT: It's been clarified they don't like option three. That's no small thing, since the Clergy are our natural allies here, and driving a wedge in on our first interaction as a major blow that shouldn't be downplayed. A guaranteed hit to Clergy rep as our first impression in order to not piss off the Nobles (Who are not our natural allies) is painful, since first impressions are a bitch to turn around.
The alternative of course is that we were dumb enough not to ask questions, or send any drafts in, and this is literally the first they're hearing about the performance and that's why we're only finding out about this now. But since they're confident that they sent all the info--but we only got nine pieces of it--suggests that yes, indeed, someone is Fucking With The Mail, an Imperial Institution, which is pretty much a Count Level Power here--and more importantly, one with enough of a thumb on the local spirit ecology to know which spirit involved would be the most easily offended from being excluded.
We also can't rule out them making a move on that Spirit in advance in that case, in which case, treating with it directly may cause an Incident because it had been forwarned of insult and took our arrival as 'Proof' of what it had been heard.
TBH, given this level of fuckery, we're probably looking at an Imperial Conservative operation here. It exploits one of the centralized bureaucracies to spread misinformation, and they're the only faction that we've annoyed enough to take active action to mess with us on this degree. Probably Diao or Wang--but the Wang are relatively new and not quite established yet, and given the sophistication of the mail fuckery, it's probably from the Imperial Conservative lobby of the Diao.
So the question is "Was this a shot across our bow to trip us up" or "Is this stage one of a major embarassment operation to make our attempts at grassroots outreach to our future neighbours a pain in the ass". In which case, the safe and logical choice is probably the one they've predicted us to take.
EDIT: So with the clarification that "Option three is a -Clergy Rep" choice, with the Clergy as being our natural allies here and the power of first impressions... I think we've got to cross our fingers and gamble, and hope they didn't anticipate us being good at managing chaos.
[X] Encourage Hanyi to take up the missing part and help her with the prep (60% success. Improved relationship with clergy on success. Growth for Hanyi on Success. Negative relations with clergy and Nobles on Failure. Happier Hanyi on success.)
Option three is written Really ambiguously, and that's my chief concern here. There is absolutely a way to mitigate the hit here--namely, approach him before the performance, play it up as him getting a special performance because he's so gorgeous and all that and it's most definitely not because someone played silly buggers with the script, but as written, it seems to imply Ling Qi is just going to react to his own reaction, which is going to be a problem, because River Gods are vengeful, nigh impossible to kill for more than a season or two, and react to slights by going on temper tantrums that flood the region.
"Reduced Opinion from Clergy" is also ambiguous. Does it mean "You still get rep, just less of it than you could have?" Does it mean "You actually offended them here?" They like either Ling Qi stepping in or Hanyi stepping up and doing it properly here--which does strongly suggest that the Clergy as a whole aren't complicit in this fuckery--though the fact that this is literally the first time anyone's noticing that we're missing a step is suspicious, because that suggests someone is actively fucking with the Mail--and that's an Imperial Ministry which implies Serious fucking muscle.
EDIT: It's been clarified they don't like option three. That's no small thing, since the Clergy are our natural allies here, and driving a wedge in on our first interaction as a major blow that shouldn't be downplayed. A guaranteed hit to Clergy rep as our first impression in order to not piss off the Nobles (Who are not our natural allies) is painful, since first impressions are a bitch to turn around.
The alternative of course is that we were dumb enough not to ask questions, or send any drafts in, and this is literally the first they're hearing about the performance and that's why we're only finding out about this now. But since they're confident that they sent all the info--but we only got nine pieces of it--suggests that yes, indeed, someone is Fucking With The Mail, an Imperial Institution, which is pretty much a Count Level Power here--and more importantly, one with enough of a thumb on the local spirit ecology to know which spirit involved would be the most easily offended from being excluded.
We also can't rule out them making a move on that Spirit in advance in that case, in which case, treating with it directly may cause an Incident because it had been forwarned of insult and took our arrival as 'Proof' of what it had been heard.
TBH, given this level of fuckery, we're probably looking at an Imperial Conservative operation here. It exploits one of the centralized bureaucracies to spread misinformation, and they're the only faction that we've annoyed enough to take active action to mess with us on this degree. Probably Diao or Wang--but the Wang are relatively new and not quite established yet, and given the sophistication of the mail fuckery, it's probably from the Imperial Conservative lobby of the Diao.
So the question is "Was this a shot across our bow to trip us up" or "Is this stage one of a major embarassment operation to make our attempts at grassroots outreach to our future neighbours a pain in the ass". In which case, the safe and logical choice is probably the one they've predicted us to take.
EDIT: So with the clarification that "Option three is a -Clergy Rep" choice, with the Clergy as being our natural allies here and the power of first impressions... I think we've got to cross our fingers and gamble, and hope they didn't anticipate us being good at managing chaos.
[X] Encourage Hanyi to take up the missing part and help her with the prep (60% success. Improved relationship with clergy on success. Growth for Hanyi on Success. Negative relations with clergy and Nobles on Failure. Happier Hanyi on success.)
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Yrs clarified - it means we offend them, with the obvious negative implications for future activities involving them - the Old Road, any future performances Hanyi may or may not get, etc.
I am not a betting man, I could go with 100% success... but not with ??? consequences. Anything but.
[x] Learn the missing piece yourself and take part in the performance (80% Success. Improved relationship with Clergy on success. Negative relations with clergy and Nobles on Failure. Reduced benefits for Hanyi's reputation. Annoyed Hanyi)
[X] Encourage Hanyi to take up the missing part and help her with the prep (60% success. Improved relationship with clergy on success. Growth for Hanyi on Success. Negative relations with clergy and Nobles on Failure. Happier Hanyi on success.)
[x] Learn the missing piece yourself and take part in the performance (80% Success. Improved relationship with Clergy on success. Negative relations with clergy and Nobles on Failure. Reduced benefits for Hanyi's reputation. Annoyed Hanyi)
[X] Encourage Hanyi to take up the missing part and help her with the prep (60% success. Improved relationship with clergy on success. Growth for Hanyi on Success. Negative relations with clergy and Nobles on Failure. Happier Hanyi on success.)
- Location
- Upon the back of the Great A'Tuin
[X] Encourage Hanyi to take up the missing part and help her with the prep (60% success. Improved relationship with clergy on success. Growth for Hanyi on Success. Negative relations with clergy and Nobles on Failure. Happier Hanyi on success.)
[X] Learn the missing piece yourself and take part in the performance (80% Success. Improved relationship with Clergy on success. Negative relations with clergy and Nobles on Failure. Reduced benefits for Hanyi's reputation. Annoyed Hanyi)
[X] Encourage Hanyi to take up the missing part and help her with the prep (60% success. Improved relationship with clergy on success. Growth for Hanyi on Success. Negative relations with clergy and Nobles on Failure. Happier Hanyi on success.)
[X] Encourage Hanyi to take up the missing part and help her with the prep (60% success. Improved relationship with clergy on success. Growth for Hanyi on Success. Negative relations with clergy and Nobles on Failure. Happier Hanyi on success.)
- Location
- United States of America, Michigan
[X] Encourage Hanyi to take up the missing part and help her with the prep (60% success. Improved relationship with clergy on success. Growth for Hanyi on Success. Negative relations with clergy and Nobles on Failure. Happier Hanyi on success.)
I want Hanyi to prove she can do this to herself cause all the 'Hanyi says she can't do it so we shouldn't force her to try' arguments ignores that the option has a 60% chance of success and makes Hanyi happy if she succeeds. I wish it had better odds but 60% odds is decent enough for me to gamble on especially if Yrs works out how omake bonuses will work for these type of rolls cause even a mere +10 to a roll would skew the odds in our favor even more
I want Hanyi to prove she can do this to herself cause all the 'Hanyi says she can't do it so we shouldn't force her to try' arguments ignores that the option has a 60% chance of success and makes Hanyi happy if she succeeds. I wish it had better odds but 60% odds is decent enough for me to gamble on especially if Yrs works out how omake bonuses will work for these type of rolls cause even a mere +10 to a roll would skew the odds in our favor even more
Ok, so clarification from yrs on discord about option (3) for people that were worried:
Erebeal — Today at 8:05 AM
@yrsillar since people keep being worried about it: can you clarify what LQ's intentions would be with (3)? I assume that, based on past precedent, LQ would try to manage the spirit diplomatically, and not just go to beating it up/threatening it? Especially given our experience there tells us that doesn't work well with river spirits?
Yrsillar — Today at 8:07 AM
yes its going to directly manage the spirit in person. Your not going to punch it
Erebeal — Today at 8:05 AM
@yrsillar since people keep being worried about it: can you clarify what LQ's intentions would be with (3)? I assume that, based on past precedent, LQ would try to manage the spirit diplomatically, and not just go to beating it up/threatening it? Especially given our experience there tells us that doesn't work well with river spirits?
Yrsillar — Today at 8:07 AM
yes its going to directly manage the spirit in person. Your not going to punch it
- Location
- the internet
I'm really surprised that people are leaning into option #3 so much. It seems pretty obvious that this was sabotage. If we go with the most aggressive move and piss off the clergy, we'll be doing what the saboteur wants. Do we really want to give them what they want? People should be a bit more wary of ??? Consequences I think. We already have a very polarizing reputation and we've soured certain groups' views of us a good deal. We don't want to entrench those views further.
All the voters who are thinking "this priestess bitch is stuck up, fuck her and the clergy, who cares what they think" really aren't doing LQ and CRX's political mission any favors. Reputation matters and our actions affect our reputation. We can't afford to be so tactless or undiplomatic.
Idk if the consequences of option #3 will be that big a deal but we should still be taking the political consequences of our actions and its effects on our rep seriously.
All the voters who are thinking "this priestess bitch is stuck up, fuck her and the clergy, who cares what they think" really aren't doing LQ and CRX's political mission any favors. Reputation matters and our actions affect our reputation. We can't afford to be so tactless or undiplomatic.
Idk if the consequences of option #3 will be that big a deal but we should still be taking the political consequences of our actions and its effects on our rep seriously.
- Location
- The Star Kingdom of Manticore
Right, but taking the option that guarantees we don't lose rep with the nobles is taking into account politics.
Edit: Also, how do you know option three is what the saboteur wants? We aren't well known enough that people know our skills with spirit ken.
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Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
It also guarantees losing rep with the Clergy though in exchange.
Which aren't exactly nothing
- Location
- The Star Kingdom of Manticore
Right, but we also need less clergy support than other barons because of our skills.
I would rather lose rep from the clergy than possibly lose support with more nobles. We desperately need to shore up that aspect and I don't believe taking risks with noble rep is the way to go about that. For me losing clergy rep is a sacrifice I am willing to make. The ideal world is getting rep boosts with everyone, but I don't think we can afford loosing even more support from the nobles, and that constrains our choices.
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I mean, ultimately both (1) and (3) have manageable consequences (if/when successful). Hanyi being grumpy and not gaining quite as much immediate rep might suck short term, but as long as things are successful her career can continue to grow and she can move on from her.
The clergy here being grumpy with us might be a bit of a teething problem for Hanyi's career as well, but as long as the rest of the tour goes fine it should also be manageable, and she should be able to move past it.
Failure otoh basically kills things dead.
Edit: honestly, I'm less worried about the clergy here for us, and more that they'll make Hanyi's life more difficult if they're not on board with things like this happening.
The clergy here being grumpy with us might be a bit of a teething problem for Hanyi's career as well, but as long as the rest of the tour goes fine it should also be manageable, and she should be able to move past it.
Failure otoh basically kills things dead.
Edit: honestly, I'm less worried about the clergy here for us, and more that they'll make Hanyi's life more difficult if they're not on board with things like this happening.
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Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
I wasn't aware Ling Qi could spare the time to do Literally Everything at once?
Doubly so since these are the people who directly interact with local spirits, and having them badmouthing us just seems like making our job a lot harder because we monofocused on the Big Names.
- Location
- Staring into the void
[X] Let Hanyi perform with the current choreography. Make sure this Stream doesn't cause trouble personally. (100% Success, +1 Power Success, ??? consequences. Reduced Clergy Reputation.)
[X] Encourage Hanyi to take up the missing part and help her with the prep (60% success. Improved relationship with clergy on success. Growth for Hanyi on Success. Negative relations with clergy and Nobles on Failure. Happier Hanyi on success.)
[X] Encourage Hanyi to take up the missing part and help her with the prep (60% success. Improved relationship with clergy on success. Growth for Hanyi on Success. Negative relations with clergy and Nobles on Failure. Happier Hanyi on success.)
[X] Let Hanyi perform with the current choreography. Make sure this Stream doesn't cause trouble personally. (100% Success, +1 Power Success, ??? consequences. Reduced Clergy Reputation.)
A failed performance that damages Ling Qi and Hanyi's reputation, and reduces CRX's ability to wield influence through them, is most likely what the saboteur wants. #2 with its 40% chance of failure is thus the choice most likely to give the saboteur the result they desire. I don't mind ruffling a few feathers in order to prevent that.
A failed performance that damages Ling Qi and Hanyi's reputation, and reduces CRX's ability to wield influence through them, is most likely what the saboteur wants. #2 with its 40% chance of failure is thus the choice most likely to give the saboteur the result they desire. I don't mind ruffling a few feathers in order to prevent that.
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- Location
- The Star Kingdom of Manticore
Are you suggesting that taking a rep hit now means we will receive zero clergy support? Being on the outs with the clergy should mean getting less promising priests. Not zero priests.
- Location
- THE EDGE OF THE WORLD
[X] Encourage Hanyi to take up the missing part and help her with the prep (60% success. Improved relationship with clergy on success. Growth for Hanyi on Success. Negative relations with clergy and Nobles on Failure. Happier Hanyi on success.)
For the purpose of Hanyi's concert a hit to Clergy reputation is significantly worse than the noble reputation hit would be.
Because getting even this far required the cooperation of the ruler, and regional clergy leader to work things out, but it is the Clergy's job to know the exact details, which Hanyi needs well in advance to practice the show less we be making a similar vote on her Second Tour. This of course ignores all the other minor ways an annoyed clergy staff can make Ling Qi, and Hanyi life more difficult, which would inevitably making touring far less fun for Hanyi,
- Location
- some computer lab
Honestly one of my biggest gripes with number 3 is that IIRC Hanyi wants a singing career to get a bit of Independence, and she can hardly do that If Ling Qi has to step in whenever something unexpected happens. One of the reasons I like number 2 is that it gives Hanyi the opportunity for growth.
kfrar
Aspiring Encyclopedia
I would find this argument compelling if option 2 didn't have a 40% chance of dunking our Clergy Rep as well as our Noble Rep.
As it is, picking option 2 and failing would make both Nobility and Clergy less inclined to work with us in the abstract, and make them less likely to give Hanyi any gigs in the future in particular, which would be quite poor. Haven't really heard how we're supposed to deal with that eventuality if we roll the 40%, yet.
On the other hand, if we pick 3, don't piss off the nobility, and succeed in easing the winter through the concert... Well, the nobility will still want our services, and once Hanyi has actual successes under her belt, it's easier for us to bounce back from potential sabotage and harder for anyone else to lay 100% of the blame at our feet for trying untested and unorthodox solutions. And, since we should actually have more opportunities to work with the Clergy, we can repair that reputation in time.
Right now, simply maintaining a 100% concert success rate is more important than earning perfect victories, because a proven track-record is something we desperately need to ensure future gigs.
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It also ignores Hanyi's own warnings, piles the pressure on her, and provides ample opportunity through no fault of her own to fail in a way that could badly damage both her confidence and her singing career. You're assuming success when success isn't guaranteed and the consequences of failure are significant.
- Location
- The Space Between
it's entirely up in the air about what the saboteur wants. I had written a mock up of their predicted results but decided against it since it's pretty shadowboxy, it's relying on the assumption they know the likely ways we might react.
If: goal is to drive wedge between us and nobility
1: 20% success 2: 40% success 3: 0% success
If: goal is to drive wedge between us and clergy
1: 20% success 2: 40% success 3: 100% success
If: goal is to stall Hanyi's touring and stall her reputation gain
1: 100% success
2: 40% success
3: 0% success
If: goal is to embarrass us prior to our dealing with the Wang
1: 20% success
2: 40% success
3: 0% success
If: petty attack on us because they are subset of Diao land barons/viscounts that dislike us. They just want to attack us because the opportunity presented itself
1: 20% success
2: 40% success
3: marginal success, driving wedge between us and clergy is not nothing (but isn't impacting noble opinion or our sister's prospects)
the only outcome they could want that is guaranteed by option three is clergy rep damage, but because it blocks the much more severe noble rep damage and shields Hanyi entirely I can't help but feel it's the most likely to have us retain the political capital necessary to dig around in the aftermath, I'd be more interested in the motive than the perpetrator though tbh.
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