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Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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So, I've been thinking about this last chapter. And honestly, I like it a lot, because it narratively acts as a payoff for the Forrest King arc.

Bloody Moon Dream was interesting, but it kinda felt like a step backwards in terms of character development. LQ let her fear overcome her desire to do the right thing. Essentially losing some of the progress she'd made over the course of FoD towards thinking of others besides herself. That's a bit out of place narratively, even if IRL people don't progress in a straight line, they have failures and backslide.

However, with this latest section, the Forest King arc isn't just a random event with awkward narrative impact, but rather a failure that LQ learned from, to succeed (hopefully) at the much more important event here. It's especially good because LQ was just musing on the effects that Dream had on Shen Hu, and now we're seeing the effects it had on LQ. Instead of avoiding trying to propose a better solution to the powerful out of fear, she's actually making the attempt to turn them towards what she believes is right.

If it succeeds, this could have a large influence on LQ going forward, proof that she can have a positive effect on the world. If it fails, then she will at least have stood up for what she believes in, and simply lacked the power and influence to make it stick, which is an interesting arc of its own.

It's all very neat, the kind of thing I would have expected from a fully-planned out story beat rather then the wild nature of a quest. Kudos to Yrsillar for pulling that off.
 
reade said:
I guess. Not getting in each other's way seems to be best case scenario atm. Just thought with our spirit beast just fighting together without getting in each other's way is setting the bar low. Look at Cui or the other spirit beasts of the stronger cultivators we've seen they manage it quite well. Either way I still love the story! Just a Zhengui fan who wants him to play bigger part in fights.
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Most cultivator spirit combos we see are partners who have been chosen because they act well together.
It's not really comparable to us and Zhengui, the dynamic is different.
Also, everyone wants to see Zhengui play a bigger parts, Zhengui being the Precious best boy is the one thing whole thread agrees upon.
And we are actively working on that, the duel with Ji Rong, the trip underground, that barbarian meeting ambush, all have shown an increasing amount of Zhengui participation.
Trying to mess with our cultivation is not going to make it happen, it just messes up all our time tables.
 
[X] To appeal to military pragmatism. If their enemies were divided there was no need to unite them. (+Wang, +Jia approval, -Meng approval)
 
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Adhoc vote count started by EternalObserver on Aug 16, 2020 at 11:56 AM, finished with 263 posts and 126 votes.
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Valmond said:
Most cultivator spirit combos we see are partners who have been chosen because they act well together.
It's not really comparable to us and Zhengui, the dynamic is different.
Also, everyone wants to see Zhengui play a bigger parts, Zhengui being the Precious best boy is the one thing whole thread agrees upon.
And we are actively working on that, the duel with Ji Rong, the trip underground, that barbarian meeting ambush, all have shown an increasing amount of Zhengui participation.
Trying to mess with our cultivation is not going to make it happen, it just messes up all our time tables.
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I forgot about the Ji Rong fight. That was quite well done teamwork. LQ didn't really use the cold until the end as a finisher though. Just mist combo with wood then lava later. But then the mist is cold, but not to Zhengui... so it's hard to keep track of what's doing what. Which is good right as it leaves it to the imagination of what's going on.

I disagree with the 'trying to mess with our cultivation... messes up all our time tables' . You don't necessarily have to change cultivation just make it so they act together... seems more like there hasn't been a well thought idea of how to accomplish that than anything. Which to be fair is hard cause a turtle snake is pretty unique... I suppose maybe I'm imagining things to literal. Cold mist with magma underneath is hard to visualise for myself.
 
[X] To appeal to military pragmatism. If their enemies were divided there was no need to unite them. (+Wang, +Jia approval, -Meng approval)
 
reade said:
I forgot about the Ji Rong fight. That was quite well done teamwork. LQ didn't really use the cold until the end as a finisher though. Just mist combo with wood then lava later. But then the mist is cold, but not to Zhengui... so it's hard to keep track of what's doing what. Which is good right as it leaves it to the imagination of what's going on.

I disagree with the 'trying to mess with our cultivation... messes up all our time tables' . You don't necessarily have to change cultivation just make it so they act together... seems more like there hasn't been a well thought idea of how to accomplish that than anything. Which to be fair is hard cause a turtle snake is pretty unique... I suppose maybe I'm imagining things to literal. Cold mist with magma underneath is hard to visualise for myself.
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Okay, this is slightly different from other sorts of arguments like this in the past, in that it's a shift that could plausibly still happen. But if you want it to, then this conversation isn't the way. I suggest one of two paths:

1) Identify concrete incremental things you want to happen toward this end, and then at future votes, argue for them at decision points where something along those lines can be implemented.

2) Create a larger road map that'll get us to where you want to go, then research the road map already in motion and argue for ways it can be modified to accomplish what you want, as well as reasons for why that shift is a good idea.

Yes, it's work, but you're working to influence the opinion of at least a hundred people, just going by the regular vote count. That doesn't come easy.

At the moment, you're just rehashing old arguments at a completely unrelated time, which isn't very convincing. Put in the work!
 
[X] To appeal to culture. She spoke a variant of the hill tribe tongue, and bore other markers of civilization. Better to bring into the fold as the Weilu and the Xi once did. (+Meng, +Luo approval, -Diao approval)
 
reade said:
I forgot about the Ji Rong fight. That was quite well done teamwork. LQ didn't really use the cold until the end as a finisher though. Just mist combo with wood then lava later. But then the mist is cold, but not to Zhengui... so it's hard to keep track of what's doing what. Which is good right as it leaves it to the imagination of what's going on.

I disagree with the 'trying to mess with our cultivation... messes up all our time tables' . You don't necessarily have to change cultivation just make it so they act together... seems more like there hasn't been a well thought idea of how to accomplish that than anything. Which to be fair is hard cause a turtle snake is pretty unique... I suppose maybe I'm imagining things to literal. Cold mist with magma underneath is hard to visualise for myself.
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Honestly, i am not sure what you are asking.
Somekind of change to make us more thematically linked with Zhengui, but without messing with our cultivation? That's contradicting itself, so i must be missing something.
Because the "act together" thing is already being worked on.
Do you have issues with the methods we have chosen?
Have you come up with a more efficient way to accomplish this?

Anderein said:
Okay, this is slightly different from other sorts of arguments like this in the past, in that it's a shift that could plausibly still happen. But if you want it to, then this conversation isn't the way. I suggest one of two paths:

1) Identify concrete incremental things you want to happen toward this end, and then at future votes, argue for them at decision points where something along those lines can be implemented.

2) Create a larger road map that'll get us to where you want to go, then research the road map already in motion and argue for ways it can be modified to accomplish what you want, as well as reasons for why that shift is a good idea.

Yes, it's work, but you're working to influence the opinion of at least a hundred people, just going by the regular vote count. That doesn't come easy.

At the moment, you're just rehashing old arguments at a completely unrelated time, which isn't very convincing. Put in the work!
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I think both of your paths should be done at the same time, argue for every decision, and provide a larger road map, and as a step 0, have a clear end point to describe to people.
It's all well and good to describe a path, but you need an end point to sell people to divert from existing path that seems to be working pretty well.
 
reade said:
I guess. Not getting in each other's way seems to be best case scenario atm. Just thought with our spirit beast just fighting together without getting in each other's way is setting the bar low. Look at Cui or the other spirit beasts of the stronger cultivators we've seen they manage it quite well. Either way I still love the story! Just a Zhengui fan who wants him to play bigger part in fights.
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Combat wise I think we're at a pretty good place with Zhengui. He suits our style of an defensive battlefield controller as the hard point we move around and adds abilities we lack unlike Hanyi who is a lite version of ourselves. With PLR's teleport he isn't even static anymore.

Cultivationwise, even if we're not cultivating Wood and Fire to any great extent we're still cultivating the same Concepts. Zhengui is a spirit of Renewal, of Destruction and Growth. Zhen's Fire burns to ashes the same way our Cold drains life. Destruction and Endings are synonymous and they are at the core of how Qi and Zhen cultivates their element. Gui's Wood is Growth which parallels our desire to grow stronger, to build a home and family and to believe that there is something more than survival.

Destruction and Growth combines into Renewal. And it's thus Zhengui's Way is reflected in our Insights. Endings leading to new beginnings is at the core of who he is. No matter how much the Wildfire consumes if there's a single seed left the forest will return. He has a slightly different view of Ling Qi's core philosophy but is closer to our Way than either Hanyi or Sixiang or anyone else.

[X] To appeal to culture. She spoke a variant of the hill tribe tongue, and bore other markers of civilization. Better to bring into the fold as the Weilu and the Xi once did. (+Meng, +Luo approval, -Diao approval)
 
Another thing about the military option...people have been saying that LQ shouldn't speak to that, as she doesn't know much about military matters. However it doesn't take much military brains to point out that we don't need more enemies and shouldn't be uniting the tribes/ giving the Cloud Tribes allies.
If people were to argue that LQ isn't exactly trained in military matters then the argument is basically the same for the culture option. Is she from one of the Old Tribes or Traditionalist factions? Nope. She has arts that are very Weilu-esque and she has a connection to lunar spirits. She's been using that as an advantage to appeal to those factions but trying to talk as if she actually knows that much about the tribes or their history...rings as untrue tbh.
The girl who connected with the Grinning Moon's desire for more, on the other hand, is still here even if she's changed IMO. LQ didn't pursue the path of a thief because it wasn't practical but she's still the person who goes "oohh shiny!" sometimes. So idk about the argument that the profit option would be insincere for LQ.
Another point in favor of the military option...LQ is the person who chose to join the Cai b/c it was the most practical option for her and her family. She and the future Ling clan would profit the most off of what the Cai had to offer. There was more opportunity for advancement, for cultivation aids and gaining political power which essentially made her a less vulnerble target. LQ often chooses whats practical, its not out of character for her to choose the most feasible, practical option.
 
I don't understand why people keep treating the White Sky as if they're some random, small tribe. They're basically the patsies or client state of fantasy Russia at this point, secured via marriage alliances. Or more charitably, fantasy Russia is backing them to become their equivalent of the new counts of the Wall for the fantasy Russia empire.

Why are people assuming Opium Wars out of the trade option? Fantasy Russia isn't weak and they can't be with an active sublime equivalent; they're probably equivalent to the Empire as a whole.
 
I'm pretty sure that whatever option we pick, will be sincere.
There is no dice roll, every pick will be just as effective.
So it's less about what makes sense or is persuasive, and more about who Ling Qi is at this time.

To me, military pragmatism is about short term, this works now, while keeping the white cloud as enemies for the future.
Profits are about seeng the white cloud as a resource to exploit, away to get richer.
Culture is about seeing white cloud as people, potential allies, even friends, or at the least a source of new knowledge.
This is ofcourse somewhat biased view, others will no doubt have different view on the options.
 
Lena27 said:
Another thing about the military option...people have been saying that LQ shouldn't speak to that, as she doesn't know much about military matters. However it doesn't take much military brains to point out that we don't need more enemies and shouldn't be uniting the tribes/ giving the Cloud Tribes allies.
If people were to argue that LQ isn't exactly trained in military matters then the argument is basically the same for the culture option. Is she from one of the Old Tribes or Traditionalist factions? Nope. She has arts that are very Weilu-esque and she has a connection to lunar spirits. She's been using that as an advantage to appeal to those factions but trying to talk as if she actually knows that much about the tribes or their history...rings as untrue tbh.
The girl who connected with the Grinning Moon's desire for more, on the other hand, is still here even if she's changed IMO. LQ didn't pursue the path of a thief because it wasn't practical but she's still the person who goes "oohh shiny!" sometimes. So idk about the argument that the profit option would be insincere for LQ.
Another point in favor of the military option...LQ is the person who chose to join the Cai b/c it was the most practical option for her and her family. She and the future Ling clan would profit the most off of what the Cai had to offer. There was more opportunity for advancement, for cultivation aids and gaining political power which essentially made her a less vulnerble target. LQ often chooses whats practical, its not out of character for her to choose the most feasible, practical option.
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Can you please stop making these arguments that have nothing to do with the vote?

[X] To appeal to culture. She spoke a variant of the hill tribe tongue, and bore other markers of civilization. Better to bring into the fold as the Weilu and the Xi once did. (+Meng, +Luo approval, -Diao approval)

the only thing that matters is "which factions will Ling Qi try to appeal to".

There is no insincerity, there is no effect on what Shenhua and others will do, this is a very simply "pick which clans Ling Qi wants a favourable first impression with" vote. The culture option appeals to the traditionalist factions which Renxiang wants us to get closer with so choosing it will make our job easier in the future IMO.
 
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Katreus said:
I don't understand why people keep treating the White Sky as if they're some random, small tribe. They're basically the patsies or client state of fantasy Russia at this point, secured via marriage alliances. Or more charitably, fantasy Russia is backing them to become their equivalent of the new counts of the Wall for the fantasy Russia empire.

Why are people assuming Opium Wars out of the trade option? Fantasy Russia isn't weak and they can't be with an active sublime equivalent; they're probably equivalent to the Empire as a whole.
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Opium wars are brought as a counter point for cultural assimilation and/or genocide.
Each is a completely hyperbolic description of different options, nothing will happen to the White Cloud, they are too far from us.
 
Valmond said:
Honestly, i am not sure what you are asking.
Somekind of change to make us more thematically linked with Zhengui, but without messing with our cultivation? That's contradicting itself, so i must be missing something.
Because the "act together" thing is already being worked on.
Do you have issues with the methods we have chosen?
Have you come up with a more efficient way to accomplish this?


I think both of your paths should be done at the same time, argue for every decision, and provide a larger road map, and as a step 0, have a clear end point to describe to people.
It's all well and good to describe a path, but you need an end point to sell people to divert from existing path that seems to be working pretty well.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Yeah I guess I'm not really sure I get the current method... Just as I'm reading over parts of the story again I can't help but have a voice in the back of my head thinking it's a little bit silly why would you have cold misty domain and stand on top of a fire turtle. Yrsilla seems to approach most things quite practically. Sun qi doesn't like moon qi. Water puts out fire. Freezing shit above magma should be difficult!

Is there an actual method of how this is supposed to work???
Or is it impractical?
If it is impractical what can be done?
Or has this been explained and I missed it?

So I was throwing out ideas for how to make it work I guess...
 
1986ctcel said:
Can you please stop making these arguments that have nothing to do with the vote?

[X] To appeal to culture. She spoke a variant of the hill tribe tongue, and bore other markers of civilization. Better to bring into the fold as the Weilu and the Xi once did. (+Meng, +Luo approval, -Diao approval)

the only thing that matters is "which factions will Ling Qi try to appeal to".

There is no insincerity, there is no effect on what Shenhua and others will do, this is a very simply "pick which clans Ling Qi wants a favourable first impression with" vote. The culture option appeals to the traditionalist factions which Renxiang wants us to get closer with so choosing it will make our job easier in the future IMO.
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I was responding to the people who brought up the "sincerity" points...if you want to tell someone to stop adding that point to the conversation, tell it to the people who brought it up in the first place.
 
reade said:
Yeah I guess I'm not really sure I get the current method... Just as I'm reading over parts of the story again I can't help but have a voice in the back of my head thinking it's a little bit silly why would you have cold misty domain and stand on top of a fire turtle. Yrsilla seems to approach most things quite practically. Sun qi doesn't like moon qi. Water puts out fire. Freezing shit above magma should be difficult!

Is there an actual method of how this is supposed to work???
Or is it impractical?
If it is impractical what can be done?
Or has this been explained and I missed it?

So I was throwing out ideas for how to make it work I guess...
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Only if the magma and ice don't like each other. :V
We and Zhengui are family, there is no reason for our ice and his fire to argue.
Remember, the laws of physics are less laws, and more opinions of local rulers, and within our respective domains, we are the rulers, or atleast the town clerk, so lot of things that should not make sense, suddenly seem to work.
Powerful cultivators warp reality by their very presence, and their will warps it even more, thermodynamics can go get bent. :V
 
While I'm sure what LQ says here will have some minor effect on how she personally goes about diplomancing the White Tribes, this vote is really about which faction in the ES court LQ wants to present herself as aligning with. We're primarily voting for whether LQ aligns herself with the trading faction, the expansionist faction, or the Weliu faction here. Because honestly, all of the stated approaches are pretty pie-in-the-sky as far as they go. We know OOC that the real power behind the White Sky is not!Russia, and none of these approaches are going to work on an empire that has its own Sublime Ancestor equivalent.
 
Lena27 said:
I was responding to the people who brought up the "sincerity" points...if you want to tell someone to stop adding that point to the conversation, tell it to the people who brought it up in the first place.
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Or you could just tell "those people" that their sincerity argument has nothing to do with what the vote is supposed to be about and they're all equally sincere or not sincere since this is a rehearsed speech that LQ and CRX decided on together and the vote is retroactively established which one they decided on using.
 
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Valmond said:
Only if the magma and ice don't like each other. :V
We and Zhengui are family, there is no reason for our ice and his fire to argue.
Remember, the laws of physics are less laws, and more opinions of local rulers, and within our respective domains, we are the rulers, or atleast the town clerk, so lot of things that should not make sense, suddenly seem to work.
Powerful cultivators warp reality by their very presence, and their will warps it even more, thermodynamics can go get bent. :V
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So less method. More pretend the world is flat approach. Gg!
 
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