If one character is an 'Agency' Eater though, is it really the author? Like, you could argue the Pope's the one eating the characters' agency because he's been planning it since the start, using correct means of dealing with his troubles. This in turn leads to the 'protagonists' to find themselves without agency, but that's pretty much what would happen if Emperor Palpatine ordered Luke Skywalker to kill a hundred children. He would ensure Luke would have no 'Agency' to do something else. What you are viewing as 'No Agency on the Characters' is merely the Pope ensuring they cannot act against his own plans.
Well, Louise went from Germanian 'Luise' to Noble Louise but didn't lose her down-to-earth attributes, and even her flaunted 'tsundere' attitudes are smoothed out to the extreme.
Saito went from cardboard character to having, at the very least, a bit more of a choice and his character arc starts right now, where it's meant to start because yes, this is 'his' moment to shine through. The moment where the view between Julio's 'Kill those that must be killed' and Saito's 'We won't kill anyone!' comes into conflict.
Saito's 'inner conflict' is a matter of modern view versus ancient view. Louise's coming into her powers far more strongly and far better off than Saito was because she had no qualms using them in an aggressive manner. Saito does. Saito is an average willed, 'does not easily get shocked' modern student. He is the personification of the Japanese student and the blandest possible thing that could be made out of cardboard. But we are working on it.
He has, in fact, developed a White Knight mentality. What you see as 'refusal to make a choice' is instead His Choice. He refuses to take a human life, no matter how horrible or counter-productive it might be. The more he was pushed into the act, the less he wanted to do it.
It doesn't matter if they can't actually do anything because the Pope is a Machiavellian genius, subtlety pulling all the strings. These are just means to telling an interesting story. The problem here is that the way you've implemented it has lead to a boring story. There are a ton of good stories where the hero is countered at every turn, desperately trying to get even a Pyrrhic victory out of every engagement. This isn't one of those; instead you have a passive protagonist who just kind of goes with the flow.
Don't try and justify out of story direction such as drama, action, and interest with in story facts. The in story facts has to create the out of story emotions
Saito went from cardboard character to having, at the very least, a bit more of a choice and his character arc starts right now, where it's meant to start because yes, this is 'his' moment to shine through. The moment where the view between Julio's 'Kill those that must be killed' and Saito's 'We won't kill anyone!' comes into conflict.
This in turn leads to the 'protagonists' to find themselves without agency, but that's pretty much what would happen if Emperor Palpatine ordered Luke Skywalker to kill a hundred children. He would ensure Luke would have no 'Agency' to do something else.
Don't try and justify out of story direction such as drama, action, and interest with in story facts. The in story facts has to create the out of story emotions
So very much this, you talk up alot about how these characters are changing and are different now, but none of that has really shown up in the story. This would be okay if we were like, 10 chapters in, but we just got done reading CHAPTER 97. If it takes you 90 chapters to give one of your main characters a big story arc, than either your name is Robert Jordan and you have way too many main characters, or you are badly in need of a good editor to cut some stuff.
It doesn't matter if they can't actually do anything because the Pope is a Machiavellian genius, subtlety pulling all the strings. These are just means to telling an interesting story. The problem here is that the way you've implemented it has lead to a boring story. There are a ton of good stories where the hero is countered at every turn, desperately trying to get even a Pyrrhic victory out of every engagement. This isn't one of those; instead you have a passive protagonist who just kind of goes with the flow.
Don't try and justify out of story direction such as drama, action, and interest with in story facts. The in story facts has to create the out of story emotions
Well, I've got no qualms admitting I can still improve. Could you kindly send me a few links to a couple of good stories with the good heroes countered at every turn? I'll read into them as see what I can do.
He is improving bits and pieces, but the most conflicting part of his character was his modern outlook on things like life, death, morality. Which all could be answered in a proper 'conflict' only with the Crusades looming/starting.
Yes, but we aren't at Return of the Jedi. Now Saito is training with Yoda. When he's done the Yoda training, he'll return with his answers and face the Emperor.
Honestly, it makes sense if you consider that the first big chunk of the story was Lousie's primary character arc, and we've been transitioning over to Saito for a bit.
Well, I've got no qualms admitting I can still improve. Could you kindly send me a few links to a couple of good stories with the good heroes countered at every turn? I'll read into them as see what I can do.
He is improving bits and pieces, but the most conflicting part of his character was his modern outlook on things like life, death, morality. Which all could be answered in a proper 'conflict' only with the Crusades looming/starting.
Yes, but we aren't at Return of the Jedi. Now Saito is training with Yoda. When he's done the Yoda training, he'll return with his answers and face the Emperor.
Since we're on Star Wars you could basically look at ESB. It's a long series of the protagonists desperately trying not to get screwed any more than they already have. Luke gets captured, injured, and has to be rescued. The Rebellion barely makes it off the planet as the Empire attacks. Everyone gets captured in Cloud City. Luke basically fails his first shot at real Jedi training and gets his hand cut off. Our protagonists end the film having to flee once again from the Empire, are down a hand, Han Solo is in carbonite, C3-PO is in pieces, and everything looks grim.
The Dagger & Coin series follows a similar path, although the big villain is one of the viewpoint characters and you are supposed to root against him. But for the first few books it's basically having the heroes get stymied at every turn, having to flee while watching their friends and allies get screwed over, while the villain basically takes over the continent.
The First Law:
is basically a similar setup to what you're going for, where the villains have set up the board so that the heroes are effectively dancing to their tune; the Gandalf equivalent is actually one of the big bads! But the way the story is presented the heroes have goals they are working towards and even if the bad guys keep making far more progress than the heroes, there's always some feeling of choice or accomplishment, even if it's just escaping from an ambush.
If the villain has everything set up to go his way, don't show them cackling about how the hero has no choices and is dancing like a puppet on strings. Show the hero making decisions, reaping the benefits and suffering the consequences. If you want to reveal later on that it was just as planned do so, but let the audience revel in the rush of the hero doing what they do best. There has to be real choices and decisions made. Good storytelling is like whitewater rafting, where you're getting a thrill from navigating the roaring currents that could betray you at any moment. Passive storytelling is just lazy river tubing without any alcohol; you're going to end up miserable and sunburnt.
He is improving bits and pieces, but the most conflicting part of his character was his modern outlook on things like life, death, morality. Which all could be answered in a proper 'conflict' only with the Crusades looming/starting.
Yes, but we aren't at Return of the Jedi. Now Saito is training with Yoda. When he's done the Yoda training, he'll return with his answers and face the Emperor.
In Star Wars when Luke was not ready to confront Darth Vader yet did so anyway, he left sans a hand and Han Solo. There were obvious consequences for his reckless behavior, and he changed as a result of that.
When SP!Saito confronts Julio before he was done training- though, didn't he just get a training arc at the Academy?- he gets away with pretty much everything he wanted. ++allies, freed hostage, didn't have to kill anyone, no injuries.
There is no dramatic tension. Big Bad Julio appears, we don't care. Hell, Saito himself doesn't seem to care! And why should he, things have always worked out for him before no matter how he acts.
Since we're on Star Wars you could basically look at ESB. It's a long series of the protagonists desperately trying not to get screwed any more than they already have. Luke gets captured, injured, and has to be rescued. The Rebellion barely makes it off the planet as the Empire attacks. Everyone gets captured in Cloud City. Luke basically fails his first shot at real Jedi training and gets his hand cut off. Our protagonists end the film having to flee once again from the Empire, are down a hand, Han Solo is in carbonite, C3-PO is in pieces, and everything looks grim.
The Dagger & Coin series follows a similar path, although the big villain is one of the viewpoint characters and you are supposed to root against him. But for the first few books it's basically having the heroes get stymied at every turn, having to flee while watching their friends and allies get screwed over, while the villain basically takes over the continent.
The First Law:
is basically a similar setup to what you're going for, where the villains have set up the board so that the heroes are effectively dancing to their tune; the Gandalf equivalent is actually one of the big bads! But the way the story is presented the heroes have goals they are working towards and even if the bad guys keep making far more progress than the heroes, there's always some feeling of choice or accomplishment, even if it's just escaping from an ambush.
If the villain has everything set up to go his way, don't show them cackling about how the hero has no choices and is dancing like a puppet on strings. Show the hero making decisions, reaping the benefits and suffering the consequences. If you want to reveal later on that it was just as planned do so, but let the audience revel in the rush of the hero doing what they do best. There has to be real choices and decisions made. Good storytelling is like whitewater rafting, where you're getting a thrill from navigating the roaring currents that could betray you at any moment. Passive storytelling is just lazy river tubing without any alcohol; you're going to end up miserable and sunburnt.
Don't try and justify out of story direction such as drama, action, and interest with in story facts. The in story facts has to create the out of story emotions
The problem is, these character arcs should be happening concurrently. As it is, you can't have one main character remaining almost entirely static throughout tons of events until "their" character arc.
He is improving bits and pieces, but the most conflicting part of his character was his modern outlook on things like life, death, morality. Which all could be answered in a proper 'conflict' only with the Crusades looming/starting.
Yes, but we aren't at Return of the Jedi. Now Saito is training with Yoda. When he's done the Yoda training, he'll return with his answers and face the Emperor.
He should have already been training with Yoda while all of that was going on. Right now, it's kind of like if Luke vanished after the end of A New Hope, and then only showed up again at the middle of Return. If these Modern outlook things are confclicting within him, these need to be brought out front and center way more. Internal Monologues, him going over past events wondering if they could have gone differently, thoughts on how he is being treated by Karin,Charlotte, the nobles at the party, etc. As it is, Saito seems to be paper thin, and has not really had to agonize over anything.
Don't get me wrong, I've actually enjoyed the story up to recently for the most part. It's just that the it worked best as either a team story with Louise and Saito or focusing on Louise who is by nature very active. When you strip that away and have just Saito, you either have to let him be more passive in an interesting manner (run with the trauma from killing the King so he's actively fighting his PTSD, making it internally focused) or you just let him make choices. It would be within his character to decide to end Julio here because while Saito has been shown to be forgiving, it's to people who have shown willingness to be reasonable and come around to his sense of morals. Julio is instead taking great joy in being a barbarian, so Saito could just decide that he has to end him for the sake of civilization.
I would think that someone saying they're going to effectively nuke a bunch of civilians would be a decent enough reason for someone from a society scarred by the use of nuclear weapons to decide they're out of chances. It's like if you had a Jewish protagonist and the villains said they were going to fire up the old Shoah machine. It gives them the perfect opportunity to take a stand.
Don't get me wrong, there is some good writing. The main problem I see seems to be a common problem in multi character fanfic writing, where they treat character arcs like the Loyalty missions in Mass Effect, where the relationships and personalities of characters remain entirely static until it is "their" turn to be at the plate. The big leap in fiction writing is to be able to have multiple story/character arcs running at the same time, all while keeping track of it. Just because the camera is not on them does not mean they are not doing things in the background.
Don't get me wrong, I've actually enjoyed the story up to recently for the most part. It's just that the it worked best as either a team story with Louise and Saito or focusing on Louise who is by nature very active. When you strip that away and have just Saito, you either have to let him be more passive in an interesting manner (run with the trauma from killing the King so he's actively fighting his PTSD, making it internally focused) or you just let him make choices. It would be within his character to decide to end Julio here because while Saito has been shown to be forgiving, it's to people who have shown willingness to be reasonable and come around to his sense of morals. Julio is instead taking great joy in being a barbarian, so Saito could just decide that he has to end him for the sake of civilization.
Alternatively, have him chose not to kill Julio and get recaptured and mind controlled as consequence. Saito has a partner, remember? Built-in alternate PoV to switch to when he's genuinely in over his head and needs outside help, without the nasty SoD break of a deus ex machina.
I remember having a much more positive reaction to Louise whipping out the incantation less explosion against the mercenaries, than the Water Spirit ganking Sheffield.
Well, that and this white knight thing has simply come out of absolutely nowhere.
See. It comes back to Orcs. And other creatures.
Saito has repeatedly and cheerfully slaughtered all kinds of things. Without any perceptible empathy for them, either.
So, Saito doesn't have a problem with killing.
Now, the thing is.
Orcs. They make or use tools, move in groups, and work together. They are through-and-through EVIL with a capital E.
They are thinking beings. They are, in short, people. Bad people. But they're people.
After being told that Orcs are evil baby-eaters. Saito's okay with killing them.
So right there, we know that Saito has a moral code, and that things that violate this code are Evil and are on the Kill List. And Saito doesn't have a problem killing things on that list.
The only thing keeping the foes alive, then, is their status as Major Antagonists. They're clearly evil and the world would clearly be better off without them. But Saito isn't killing them.
Now, note that this has nothing to do with the foes. He's not trying to redeem them. The names and identities of his enemies aren't factoring into these decisions at all. Saito isn't being Naruto here, saying that these guys aren't so bad and they can be redeemed or something. Saito isn't killing because all the sudden, Saito doesn't kill because he's Batman or something. Except, the only things Saito doesn't kill, are his human enemies.
Also, it's worth noting. Everything Saito heard about Orcs that put them on his kill list? He's heard those same things about Elves. But they're not on his kill list. Why not?
Well, Orcs are pretty much 'Evil' in all shown fantasy genres. Elves, while at first absolutely like that, have the grace due to Tiffania's large attributes and her kind nature being a neat contrast. Had Saito met a 'Kind' Orc, (as he himself states) he would have allowed him the benefit of doubt.
Also, it's worth noting. Everything Saito heard about Orcs that put them on his kill list? He's heard those same things about Elves. But they're not on his kill list. Why not?
To be fair, he's not trying to do anything with them, which is the problem. The biggest argument about Saito's White Knight Sybdrome seems to be that outside of "dun kill 'em" he doesn't really have anything propping him up besides his admittedly convenient set of morals. There's more to being a White Knight than just refusing to kill. He doesn't champion the good fight unless it's either convenient or staring him right in the face and otherwise just coasts along. He knows there are big problems, but his solutions all seem to consist of "Imma sit here and see what happens." which would be okay, but there isn't any indication of there being a step two to his "Wait and see" approach.
It's actually incredibly selfish and pretty childish to boot. Oh, and lazy. And that's where the issue is coming from, it feels like. Saito is, in a lot of ways, the consummate modern teen. He doesn't seem to actually care about problems not staring him in the face. So long as it's vaguely "over there" and he's "over here" it's really not something he's aware of or cares about.
So in other words, he's not a white knight. He's a lazy knight. Which is what's pissing people off I think. The only time he's motivated is when it's something that his Gandalfr runes can't immediately solve, and then he's grossly unprepared, suffers a crisis, and get subsequently bailed out. It's spoiling him. He gets to keep being lazy about his morals and using the Gandalfr runes as a crutch to make up for his lack of skill and ability.
To be fair, he's not trying to do anything with them, which is the problem. The biggest argument about Saito's White Knight Sybdrome seems to be that outside of "dun kill 'em" he doesn't really have anything propping him up besides his admittedly convenient set of morals. There's more to being a White Knight than just refusing to kill. He doesn't champion the good fight unless it's either convenient or staring him right in the face and otherwise just coasts along. He knows there are big problems, but his solutions all seem to consist of "Imma sit here and see what happens." which would be okay, but there isn't any indication of there being a step two to his "Wait and see" approach.
It's actually incredibly selfish and pretty childish to boot. Oh, and lazy. And that's where the issue is coming from, it feels like. Saito is, in a lot of ways, the consummate modern teen. He doesn't seem to actually care about problems not staring him in the face. So long as it's vaguely "over there" and he's "over here" it's really not something he's aware of or cares about.
So in other words, he's not a white knight. He's a lazy knight. Which is what's pissing people off I think. The only time he's motivated is when it's something that his Gandalfr runes can't immediately solve, and then he's grossly unprepared, suffers a crisis, and get subsequently bailed out. It's spoiling him. He gets to keep being lazy about his morals and using the Gandalfr runes as a crutch to make up for his lack of skill and ability.
IT's kind of the same problem I had with Beyond 2 Souls. The Character never really initiates anything, they just sort of drift along with the plot, either doing whatever they are told to do by the latest authority figure, or weakly reacting to the actions of others. Morality, Values, and Ideals are all at the mercy of the particular scene, irregardless of anything else.
Saito is, in a lot of ways, the consummate modern teen. He doesn't seem to actually care about problems not staring him in the face. So long as it's vaguely "over there" and he's "over here" it's really not something he's aware of or cares about.
It's worse than that, though, because he doesn't even act the same way with human antagonists that are in his face. The cardinal, Charlotte, Wardes, even the band of rapey murderhobos that kept abducting Siesta, etc.
If they were orcs, gryphons, or otherwise not Named Antagonists, they'd have been dispatched forthwith. Or at the very least, he'd've pulled no punches while taking them out and defending himself.
Only when they're Story Antagonists does this weird passivity rear its ugly head. As soon as one of the big bads shows up, Saito stops being a character and just waits to transition to another scene. He turns into furniture.
It's worse than that, though, because he doesn't even act the same way with human antagonists that are in his face. The cardinal, Charlotte, Wardes, even the band of rapey murderhobos that kept abducting Siesta, etc.
If they were orcs, gryphons, or otherwise not Named Antagonists, they'd have been dispatched forthwith. Or at the very least, he'd've pulled no punches while taking them out and defending himself.
I have to flatly disagree with your argument here. Humans are very good a killing things that aren't human, get us a little hungry and we'll kill and eat almost anything. Getting sane civilized humans to kill other humans is NOT easy. Normally people have to depersonalize other humans to view them as inhuman before we are willing to choose to kill.
Having Saito, a sane non-criminal modern day teenage human from first-world Japan with all the cultural baggage that comes with it, able adjust to killing non-humans but remain massively reluctant to kill other humans is one of the more realistic parts of the story.
If you have faith, then stop being so simple minded about it, no this is clearly a rescue, but what a rescue it is
Here the brave elven warriors have come to rescue their saint Anubis from the evil claws of the void demons and now in order to protect him from their machinations they will bring him into their holy land and prepare for war against the demons that dared to try and enslave their holy saint
meanwhile on the more racist human side of the war an ignorant hateful idiot Louise now leads the charge in freeing the person they love and becomes ready to make a deal with the devil pope in order to archieve it and rallys the people for the next crusade
so yeah, all with now everything leading towards a big war that only charlotte and saito are willing to prevent, that a big tragedy *cough*louise death*cough* may occur from that our hero must rise above and fulfill his destiny *cough*to be with his true loves Charlotte and Tiffania*cough*
Having Saito, a sane non-criminal modern day teenage human from first-world Japan with all the cultural baggage that comes with it, able adjust to killing non-humans but remain massively reluctant to kill other humans is one of the more realistic parts of the story.
I have to flatly disagree with your argument here. Humans are very good a killing things that aren't human, get us a little hungry and we'll kill and eat almost anything. Getting sane civilized humans to kill other humans is NOT easy. Normally people have to depersonalize other humans to view them as inhuman before we are willing to choose to kill.
Having Saito, a sane non-criminal modern day teenage human from first-world Japan with all the cultural baggage that comes with it, able adjust to killing non-humans but remain massively reluctant to kill other humans is one of the more realistic parts of the story.
Reacting to a human antagonist doesn't require him to kill, it just requires him to react in some way besides ignoring the problem. The way he's been reacting, well, non-reacting really, on an emotional level is incredibly unhealthy if it's meant to be realistic.
Also, he didn't seem to have a problem hacking up that horde of undead zombies which were still recognizably human. After 90+ chapters of fighting with bladed weapons, and getting showered in blood and guts without pausing it's more than a little SoD breaking when he completely freeze up upon actually cutting an opponent.
If you have faith, then stop being so simple minded about it, no this is clearly a rescue, but what a rescue it is
Here the brave elven warriors have come to rescue their saint Anubis from the evil claws of the void demons and now in order to protect him from their machinations they will bring him into their holy land and prepare for war against the demons that dared to try and enslave their holy saint
meanwhile on the more racist human side of the war an ignorant hateful idiot Louise now leads the charge in freeing the person they love and becomes ready to make a deal with the devil pope in order to archieve it and rallys the people for the next crusade
so yeah, all with now everything leading towards a big war that only charlotte and saito are willing to prevent, that a big tragedy *cough*louise death*cough* may occur from that our hero must rise above and fulfill his destiny *cough*to be with his true loves Charlotte and Tiffania*cough*
No, No, Saito will be possessed by Sasha(Saint Anubis) who will lead a elven invasion to put halk humanity out of its misery. Louise will be forced to kill Saito after he kills her family and their friends. The emotional suffering will cause her to cast a spell that will save halk from the windstone crisis and eliminate the threat of the gate but she will be left all alone with no friends and family even she's is praised as a savior.
