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The Soviet Media's Portrait of America

WhiteDragon25

WhiteDragon25

White Lightning FTW!
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Found this interesting old video on YouTube, uploaded by the CIA, on the Soviet perspective on the United States of America.



You know what I find hilarious? A lot of what the (likely CIA agent) narrator describes as "Soviet manipulation"... when a lot of what the Soviet media describes about America is actually factually true, if perhaps over-exaggerated at times. And yet the CIA wants you to believe they aren't trying manipulate you.

Talk about an inability to recognize irony much, isn't it?
 
HolySeraph said:
"If perhaps" you say...?
Has there been thousands of political prisoners and racism has grown worse than 60's and 70's?
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Well, we don't really have that many political prisoners (if any)... though we do have an embarrassingly massive number of convicted criminals in prison, despite the fact that a large majority possibly didn't do any of the crimes they committed, or if they did, said crimes are so minor as to be mostly harmless.

Racism has gone down since the 60s and 70s, at least overtly. We still have very large problems with dog-whistle racism and institutional inertia that are still giving us grief... and unfortunately, overt racism is rearing its ugly head in recent years thanks to a convergence of a number of factors (such as shifting demographics causing the GOP member base to start lashing out in a last desperate gasp to retain relevance).

So, true in some factors, false or mistaken in others.
 
WhiteDragon25 said:
Well, we don't really have that many political prisoners (if any)... though we do have an embarrassingly massive number of convicted criminals in prison, despite the fact that a large majority possibly didn't do any of the crimes they committed, or if they did, said crimes are so minor as to be mostly harmless.
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Convicted criminals would be moving the goal posts since they're specifically claiming political prisoners in the thousands.
WhiteDragon25 said:
Racism has gone down since the 60s and 70s, at least overtly. We still have very large problems with dog-whistle racism and institutional inertia that are still giving us grief... and unfortunately, overt racism is rearing its ugly head in recent years thanks to a convergence of a number of factors (such as shifting demographics causing the GOP member base to start lashing out in a last desperate gasp to retain relevance).
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Except they were specifically claiming it was growing worse, not that it is still a major issue that the US is trying to deal with.
And remember this is 1980's at the latest they are discussing.
 
HolySeraph said:
Convicted criminals would be moving the goal posts since they're specifically claiming political prisoners in the thousands.

Except they were specifically claiming it was growing worse, not that it is still a major issue that the US is trying to deal with.
And remember this is 1980's at the latest they are discussing.
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As I said, true in some factors, false or mistaken in others.
 
HolySeraph said:
Which is rather quite some distance away from "a lot of what the Soviet media describes about America is actually factually true, if perhaps over-exaggerated at times"
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Now you're just nitpicking at semantics. Point is, the Soviet media used plenty of real facts in their broadcasts. Interpretation of said facts is something of a different beast.
 
WhiteDragon25 said:
Now you're just nitpicking at semantics. Point is, the Soviet media used plenty of real facts in their broadcasts. Interpretation of said facts is something of a different beast.
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Interpretation of your statement made it sound like the Soviets were largely correct and seemingly mocked that there was manipulation of the facts.
I don't consider that nitpicking.
 
While 40 million people may not have been "literary starving", they were certainly living in poverty - while a "select group of rich people continued to grow richer". The USA are also the "quintessence of an unjust" (inherited wealth, the richer you get the easier it is to make more money etc.) "capitalist system that keeps millions of people below the official poverty line."
There are a ton of "failures of providing for basic human needs" (health care, sufficient nutrition, housing, education).
You can certainly argue that "you people are receiving military brainwashing from films such as Rambo" (okay, not the best example, but there are plenty of other good ones).
"On racial and social problems, the USA" IS "a country plagued by discrimination", though the claim whether the situation was getting worse rather than better is debatable (it certainly got better historically, whether it looked like that is another matter). "No equality of opportunity with neither blacks nor hispanics getting a fair chance in american society" is still true today.
And portraying the US political system as "an oligarchy ruled by big capitalists who control the impoverished masses" was certainly accurate back then, and even more so today with super-PACs and private campaign contributions. "Lulled by demagogy of politicos whose services has been bought by capital" is also a very apt description, especially when looking at the culture war, health care and other such issues which do involve a lot of demagogy.
Opposition to the Vietnam war was done by "peace fighters who were oppressed on a massive scale by the US secret police", the only inaccurate part about that being that the police doing so was not secret.

So, there is a lot of stuff reported by the soviet media that was certainly not made up, and not even really exaggerated.
It's still propaganda of course, but so is this video.
 
Serafina said:
So, there is a lot of stuff reported by the soviet media that was certainly not made up, and not even really exaggerated.
It's still propaganda of course, but so is this video.
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Really now? You don't think there is large exaggeration when they claim peace protestors were oppressed on a massive scale?
That racism has only debatably gotten better despite segregation and racial discrimination is now illegal?
And I consider it highly unlikely that defense spending is the cause of large unemployment within the civilian industry.

Just because the individual facts may be 'true' doesn't mean it isn't exaggerated or cherry picked.
 
HolySeraph said:
Really now? You don't think there is large exaggeration when they claim peace protestors were oppressed on a massive scale?
That racism has only debatably gotten better despite segregation and racial discrimination is now illegal?
And I consider it highly unlikely that defense spending is the cause of large unemployment within the civilian industry.

Just because the individual facts may be 'true' doesn't mean it isn't exaggerated or cherry picked.
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It's a matter of historical record that there was regular police oppression against vietnam protests, unless you don't count beating and arresting peaceful protestors as oppression.

I said that their claim that "(racial tension) was getting worse" is debatable. Because it could have easily looked that way during that time, so I'd have been an honest assessment. The assessment would have still been wrong - because it did get better, objectively.
You claiming that I said that it's debatable whether racism got better is either putting words in my mouth, or a reading comprehension failure.

I never mentioned the claim that defense spending lead to unemployment.
No, I listed all the points that were true, and where there was no major exaggeration. Of course there were untrue claims, but the major direction of the propaganda (US-capitalism is a terrible system that causes oppression and unemployment for the benefit of the rich) was very much based on true claims. That doesn't mean that that was true - good propaganda works with the truth, after all. I can only tell half the truth, and therefore paint a much worse picture than reality.
 
At least we didn't throw people into gulags and forced labor camps in horrible horrible conditions in the middle of Siberia. There's that at least. Compared to a Soviet gulags, a super max prison would be like a resort our something.
 
HolySeraph said:
What is wrong with picking cotton in Louisiana?
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Better than shoveling shit during the great WW2.


Related note, I'm reminded of stories about Chinese attempts to brainwash American POWs during Korea with stories of how people were dying of famine in Burbank and bragging that in China a man could get an egg for breakfast. A POW who responded that it wasn't uncommon for Americans to eat half a dozen eggs at breakfast drew such astonishment the man wasn't even beaten.
 
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Axiomatic said:
It's forced labor performing the exact same job slaves used to do there, except now they wear orange jumpsuits.
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The main distinction is that we don't really have (US citizens as) political prisoners. Every one of those people is at least a convicted criminal (though sadly, the imperfection of the system means that a few of them didn't commit what they were convicted of).
 
I beg to differ. The USA does have political prisoners - Chelsea Manning is one example.
Now yes, you can argue that she has committed a crime and was rightfully convicted - but that does not make her less of a political prisoner, given that political prisoners in other countries are also typically convicted of a crime.

Now yes, you can certainly argue that the USA has far less political prisoners than a lot of other nations, and that they're treated far better (though Chelsea Manning was tortured over a significant period). But being the lesser of two evils does not make your actions good.
 
Serafina said:
I beg to differ. The USA does have political prisoners - Chelsea Manning is one example.
Now yes, you can argue that she has committed a crime and was rightfully convicted - but that does not make her less of a political prisoner, given that political prisoners in other countries are also typically convicted of a crime.

Now yes, you can certainly argue that the USA has far less political prisoners than a lot of other nations, and that they're treated far better (though Chelsea Manning was tortured over a significant period). But being the lesser of two evils does not make your actions good.
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Of course, but it does make you the lesser of two evils. I think it can be said that people would usually prefer the lesser of two evils than the greater of that two.
 
Axiomatic said:
It's forced labor performing the exact same job slaves used to do there, except now they wear orange jumpsuits.
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So penal labor is what you're really saying is bad? Cause I otherwise don't see why you would single out cotton picking in a particular state.
Serafina said:
Now yes, you can argue that she has committed a crime and was rightfully convicted - but that does not make her less of a political prisoner, given that political prisoners in other countries are also typically convicted of a crime.
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Would releasing that information fall under political activity then?
Since usually, a political prisoner is defined as someone imprisoned for their political beliefs or for criticizing the government.
 
The Soviet Union was a fascinating concept that, in some ways, did far better than could've been expected against America, considering they were starting with the fairly heavy hendicap of having half their lands ravaged by Nazi Germany, while the US basically sailed serenely above the worst of WW2. None of its major cities were bombed, and only a few islands in Alaska fealt the tread of foreign boots. The USSR started the Cold War hobbled, and still hung on.

It had it's problems but, in many regards, it really was no worse that its opponents. It wasn't that its people had no rights - they had different rights. Americans had the right of free speech and run buisinesses . Soviet citizens had the right to work and not starve.

But ultimately, the difference between both can be summed up thusly...

In America, you are permitted, but cannot afford. Unless you know the right people.
in USSR, you can afford, but are not permitted. Unless you know the right people.

The effect is otherwise the same.

It would have been interesting to see what 21st century technology would have made of the Soviet experiment, what with data-mining and other similar technologies available now that would have made 5 year plans far more of an achieveable goal.
 
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