The Magical Girl Problem

ColdGoldLazarus

Contrary Quester, Spreadsheet Queen, Pink Flamingo
Location
Challenger Deep
Pronouns
She/Her
Inspired by recent discussions both here and on Discord, I thought it might be a good (or potentially terrible) idea to open a debate about the "Magical Girl Problem" - namely, the shift in tone of the genre (and its fanworks) after a certain anime aired in 2011. There seem to be lots of different schools of thought about this. Was the shift as dramatic as it appears, or is it exaggerated? How much of the shift is actually directly the fault of that certain anime? Can we expect the average tone to swing back into lighter territory? And is this trend towards darkness a good thing for the genre, a bad one, or somewhere in between? And what's with all the Magical Girl quests that open with scenes of monster-induced genocide, seriously?
 
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I think that anime was really about addressing the superficial elements that had sunk into the genre. The things people took from one anime and applied it to another- everything that had been inspired by other media rather than real life. The genre had become alien, so to speak, from the human experience.

To me, the best modern take on the Magical Girl is Space Patrol Luluco. The climax of her story has her accept that her own feelings are valid. She casts aside shame and becomes courageous, and saves the universe by confessing her feelings to the boy she likes. That's the fun of magical girls. Confronting shame and rejecting it. Embracing vulnerability. Empathizing. Having fun and not being embarrassed. And ultimately, finding strength in all of that.

Magical girls are about warmth, but everyone is preoccupied with being cool.
 
It's been awhile since I've regularly watched anime in general, but I don't think there's been that many dark themed magical girl shows after our certain anime aired? I'm kinda thinking it's more that the "normal" magical girl genre isn't around much anymore, which makes the "dark" magical girl shows stand out more.

That said I have seen a few of these other dark magical girl shows, and they basically think style is more important than substance. Which leads to focusing on eithier the grimdark or yuri shenaigans, and not on, say, good writing.
 
I'll get to this in depth later after I stop feeling so tired.

I'm kinda thinking it's more that the "normal" magical girl genre isn't around much anymore, which makes the "dark" magical girl shows stand out more.

Most people slot this one under "dark MG" shows, but I consider Yuki Yuna is a Hero to be a pretty normal MG show, even if a lot of people don't, and it also got a prequel movie series. Sailor Moon just got a reboot that lasted 3 seasons and Cardcaptor Sakura got a continuation. Pretty Cure is still going strong, continually pumping out a new series every few cours with no real sign of stopping. You had Cutie High Defense Force Love! Which was a rather whimsical take on the genre from a male-MC perspective. Vividred Operation was fucking garbage, but it was definitely a normal MG show in themes and tone. Symphogear kind of toes the line the way Nanoha does, but I might slot it under this category as well. Wish Upon the Pliaedes was actually a really interesting attempt to create a slightly dark but generally light-hearted MG series for adults, with product placement!

Like, you could actually have an interesting hot take that there IS no dark MG upswing, but normal MG anime is alive and well and probably isn't going away any time soon.
 
It's less that there is an upswing in Dark Magical Girl Shows in the media as such, and more that the immediate assumption whenever the topic of magical girls comes up in forums like this is that we must talk about Dark Magical Girls, instead of Precure or such.

An issue of the fan communities more than the genre, in other words. I always have to qualify my discussions of magical girl shows with "the sort suitable for little children", to head off the near-immediate descent into grim and bloody grittiness. I feel like this should not have to be a thing I should have to do, but I am obviously biased.
 
I'll repeat what I've said elsewhere:

Dark things are (falsely) seen as inherently "more mature" than other things, so people like to watch dark takes on things seen as childish because it makes them feel like their tastes are more refined. Furthermore, girly things are seen as inherently more childish because we live in a culture with a lot of baked-in misogyny. Thus, to a lot of people, an action anime aimed at younger audiences that's also girly is simply unacceptable to watch unless it's dark. Thus, there's a huge demand for edgy magical girl stuff and it's usually trash, abandoning the themes of the genre in order to appeal to weird adult men with gratuitous brutality, skimpy outfits on young teens, and subtle sexist undertones throughout the whole thing.
 
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An issue of the fan communities more than the genre, in other words. I always have to qualify my discussions of magical girl shows with "the sort suitable for little children", to head off the near-immediate descent into grim and bloody grittiness. I feel like this should not have to be a thing I should have to do, but I am obviously biased.

This seems like a good time to discuss that Yuki Yuna thing.

Like, I hear "Yuki Yuna is a madoka ripoff" or even "heavily inspired" all the time in anime circles but when you actually... look at the show, there isn't much to that? The characters are completely and totally different, the plots aren't similar at all (Madoka is consistently more of an action show that gets dark plot beats as the show goes on; Yuki Yuna is a slice of life-heavy show with fight scenes that becomes much darker as the series progresses), some of the themes overlap but there's some differences (Yuki Yuna puts a good deal more emphasis on solidarity- in the context of friends, but also in the context of family and just a general group of friends working together; like Karin's major awesome turning point as a character is her declaration that she's officially a member of Yuna's club), and the similar themes are handled quite differently. Like both definitely touch on self-sacrifice, but... well I'll explore it in a spoiler tag. This is in the context of a Discord chat with a friend ftr.

There's actually a perfect point that I'm really surprised that Zeria didn't bring up when talking about how both shows celebrate the self-sacrifcing nature of their protagonists, because they do it in a fundamentally different way. Madoka is celebrated in that she saves her friends, but she can never see any of them until they die, and maybe not even then if their soul gem gets shattered, and aside from Homura none of them remember her. It's in some ways a tragic way in which she self-sacrifices herself out of kindness but that has a price and she is merely happy to pay it.

Now at the end of YYIAH Yuna has something similar happen, where she pushes herself so hard she ends up comatose. And like... if you stop the show right there, right before the scene where Yuna is wheeled out to the garden, they fundamentally have the same sort of ending. But they don't. Yuna wakes up. Everything gets to go back to normal, and in the end though she went through pain, the reward of her self-sacrifice is that she ddin't HAVE to sacrifice almost anything at all.

Like it's fair closer to Sailor Moon, where Usagi sacrifices her life or near-sacrifices it multiple times in order to set things right, and as a reward she gets to live on with her friends, and the day is saved. Madoka's message regarding Madoka's sacrifice isn't a negative one, but it's one saying that self-sacrifice by its nature inherently has costs, and that one must be willing to accept those costs and hope for the best in the end. YYIAH meanwhile, much like a lot of non-Madoka magical girl shows, has the message that sometimes if you try hard enough, wish hard enough, and do things right, miracles can happen, and self-sacrifice doesn't mean you have to truly lose everything you have.
Like hell, the meaningful speech at the end of YYIAH climaxes with her saying "A REAL HERO NEVER LOSES" becasue they have friends by their side. It's just not the same at all.

And I'm talking about all this, partially because I never get to, but also because partially it is framed as fan perception. Yuki Yuna has dark elements and vaguely similar character and plot beats, so the default assumption is that it must be a Madoka clone. And in the same sort of way, when we talk about Magical Girls (particularly in an adult context), outside specific communities and sub-communities, the assumption is going to be that they're grimdark or at least as dark as Madoka is. Like, no, when it comes to the magical girl genre in particular we shouldn't have to say that it's just for kids both because... it's never been really[1], and it's just demeaning completely without justification.

1. I remember the time in Sailor Moon when one Sailor basically committed suicide to be with the woman she loved and then this happened in a recent Mature MG anime and it was criticized for being too dark and edgy lol
 
And I'm talking about all this, partially because I never get to, but also because partially it is framed as fan perception. Yuki Yuna has dark elements and vaguely similar character and plot beats, so the default assumption is that it must be a Madoka clone. And in the same sort of way, when we talk about Magical Girls (particularly in an adult context), outside specific communities and sub-communities, the assumption is going to be that they're grimdark or at least as dark as Madoka is. Like, no, when it comes to the magical girl genre in particular we shouldn't have to say that it's just for kids both because... it's never been really[1], and it's just demeaning completely without justification.

How should the distinction be described, though? I mean, Show By Rock is certainly not aimed at children, but it is "suitable for children" in that it doesn't have anything especially gory or heavily dark. The dark parts get resolved in a few episodes with little to no loss, so there's no impending sense of dread and doom. It's bright and cheery, and when the mascot-type characters start expositing, you can be pretty sure that they're not hiding some secret nefarious agenda. There's no Villainous Twist for shock value.

So when I say "suitable for children", I don't mean "only for children", but more that I want to avoid anything that is not suitable for children, because that just happens to coincide with the sort of style I want. I don't really know a better way to describe it, especially since, as mentioned, just going "I want to talk about magical girls" invariably leads into discussions about how the battles must inevitably maim and traumatize the magical girls in question, and their powers come from some sort of Faustian bargain facilitated by the evil mascot advisors.
 
I'd argue that the level of 'dark' tones haven't actually changed that much other than well, society got a lot less desensitized to visceral violence since the age of Sailor Moon.

Like let me be real with you right now: The Sailor Scouts got fucking slaughtered ON SCREEN several times in the 90's. Hell, the series ended with Sailor Galaxia just flat out murderering everyone Sailor Moon cares about and then gets killed in turn. We don't question it because it's missing the 'visceral' qualities of death like gore that is no longer taboo. Fuck, in Revolutionary Girl Utena you had them go into various fucked up topics, that I'd rather not spoil because I fucking love that show. Card Captor Sakura is pretty pure until you realize it's part of a greater series of CLAMP anime Tsubasa and XXXHolic which brings down the happy atmosphere immensely.

Yuki Yuna is a Hero is a story about heroism, it's about standing back up to save the day even after being crippled and beaten. It's about self sacrifice in the most basic form, how much are you willing to give to save your friends, or the planet? An arm, a leg, your eyes, your life? And then dealing with that scenario and finding hope to continue fighting on so others don't have to.

Symphogear? Well, sure people die on screen all the time (usually faceless NPCs in the background getting slaughtered) and it's apocalyptic in a sense like that. But all that means is that the stakes for heroism for the magical girls is just that much higher, and why saving their ideals and winning the day is important because holy shit the world's going to be fucked if they lose and then they DO succeed and bring back hope to a world used to being savaged by magic beings they cant kill just eating entire towns. That sounds edgy, but may I remind you how many times in 90's Sailor Moon a whole portion of Japan would be flat out nuked by orbit by some baddie then Sailor Moon would revive them? Well, Symphogear don't have the revives, all they have are mantles of fallen comrades and dealing with the dead.

As for monster induced genocide see: Silver Millennium which had civilizations expanding the entire solar system, The first episode of Symphogear (basically the entirety of the first two seasons tbh) paint a real grim picture, Yuki Yuna and what happened to basically the whole planet, basically the generic bad guy plan of most series can be broken down into 'basically genocide if I succeed' even in the lighter shows. The only shows that escape that is really just the ones that deal with local shenaniganry and shows like Card Captor where it's pure luck the living natural disasters that are the Cards don't just flat out murder a bunch of randos.

However, there certainly are edgy takes on the genre that are distasteful or are flat out just not really part of the genre at all and just calling itself such. However, that's like in total like four shows I can think of and most of them came out recently.
 
So when I say "suitable for children", I don't mean "only for children", but more that I want to avoid anything that is not suitable for children, because that just happens to coincide with the sort of style I want. I don't really know a better way to describe it, especially since, as mentioned, just going "I want to talk about magical girls" invariably leads into discussions about how the battles must inevitably maim and traumatize the magical girls in question, and their powers come from some sort of Faustian bargain facilitated by the evil mascot advisors.

I'm sorry, I think we were partially talking crosspaces there, my bad. My comment wasn't really about what you wanted at all; ironically what you think I was saying is something I desperately don't want to say. My point is just that I don't want any qualifier at all either, because I don't want this sort of idea that any kind of magical girl anime is "just for kids". Like if you want to just watch works suitable to children, I like, 100% support that? I've said it before and will say again that Sailor Moon is one of my favorite anime. I agree with you in total. What I was trying to say, I think, and getting a little mixed up, is that people will say that a lot of the suitable for children series you like are "just for children" which i think is dumb both because I don't think it's true, and because it shouldn't even matter.

The way that things lead to discussions about Kyubey and all that nonsense is kind of what I was getting at in part; that people feel we NEED to have MG discussions about that kind of show, when there is absolutely no need to, because shows that are more suitable for children should be valid discussion topics and dark shows for Grown-Ups(TM) shouldn't be seen as the default when someone wants to talk about a genre that is rich in content far beyond the adult default.

I really hope that was even remotely clearer.

Like let me be real with you right now: The Sailor Scouts got fucking slaughtered ON SCREEN several times in the 90's.

You know, it's kind of interesting? If you felt like being a little playful, you could, I feel, make a valid argument that Sailor Moon's Season 1 finale of "Protagonist's friends get killed one-by-one until, at the eleventh hour when everything looks desperate, the protagonist makes a wish that is (potentially) massively self-sacrificing and essentially changes the fabric of the universe to save the day" is, when you look at it in aggregate, really damn similar to the "mature and really dark" plot of Madoka?
 
You know, it's kind of interesting? If you felt like being a little playful, you could, I feel, make a valid argument that Sailor Moon's Season 1 finale of "Protagonist's friends get killed one-by-one until, at the eleventh hour when everything looks desperate, the protagonist makes a wish that is (potentially) massively self-sacrificing and essentially changes the fabric of the universe to save the day" is, when you look at it in aggregate, really damn similar to the "mature and really dark" plot of Madoka?

Like even more so, you can see the failed state of Madoka making the wish and turning into Kriemheld basically is what the lenses of Pluto watching the Silence descend on the rest of civilization (as was the only backup plan if they failed, Saturn would use The Silence to MAD everyone to death,) and I think she tried using it as a suicide attack to deny Galaxia victory over humanity (which would have killed everyone else, take that as you will. I assume she thought Earth wasn't really worth protecting because Galaxia could literally flick her wrist and annihilate every living being on it anyway).
 
You know, it's kind of interesting? If you felt like being a little playful, you could, I feel, make a valid argument that Sailor Moon's Season 1 finale of "Protagonist's friends get killed one-by-one until, at the eleventh hour when everything looks desperate, the protagonist makes a wish that is (potentially) massively self-sacrificing and essentially changes the fabric of the universe to save the day" is, when you look at it in aggregate, really damn similar to the "mature and really dark" plot of Madoka?

Holy Shit, I never even noticed that.

That's amazing.
 
I have a lot of strong feelings on this subject, and a great deal of it admittedly hypocritical. Especially so when I'm going off a combination of extremely hazy recollections of watching Sailor Moon reruns as a very very small child, and an extremely loose understanding of the current anime industry filtered by popularity rather than seeing the whole of what's out there. That being said...

Again, I watched (the english dub of) Sailor Moon on TV as a kid. I don't remember much from it frankly, and if I had the time and money I would love to just sit down and binge it all again. What I do recall is a general impression that in the end, even some pretty nasty situations worked out, and Usagi and her friends were the ones to make it happen. Pretty basic, maybe, but it meant a lot to me. Most of the other stuff I saw at the time was uh... simply sexist, and I was on the timid side myself. I thought it was cool that these girls were the heroes, not just a frequently-helpless token on the fringes of a male-dominated cast, and it was something I looked up to (Even during a decade plus of being entirely detached from anything else to do with the genre, until rediscovering it and what had become of it fairly recently.) As others have pointed out, SM was apparently not berefit of darker elements, (even if my recollection isn't as reliable on that front, though some of that is possibly due to differences in presentation rather than content compared against modern series) but the throughline was ultimately optimistic and empowering.

And so that's what I look for.

I don't necessarily think tackling darker or more adult themes is a bad thing. In fact, it can be a good one, if done well. People would talk down to me for being a child, and people sometimes still talk down to me because I'm a girl. Even if well-intentioned, trying to dumb down a conflict like that just feels patronizing to me, so I hate the suggestion that there should be nothing heavier ever and it should all be a cavlacade of oversimplified happiness. The issue is more in presentation, intention, and agency. Especially agency. Is the presentation hyper-detailed and gory for shock value, or more tasteful? Are these darker elements present because they are being legitimately explored and discussed, or just because the series wants to look cool? And are the characters actually heroes doing something to improve the world even if it comes at a personal cost, or are they also helpless, with their efforts rendered moot and their hardships in vain?

It's not about whether it's dark. It's about whether it's nilhistic.

I will say that more classical series have had some uncomfortable tropes that Puella Magi Madoka Magica called out, particularly with Kyubey and his contracting. Regardless, I do hate how it's essentially resulted in an attitude where the mere idea of becoming a Magical Girl (a girl becoming a hero) is treated with suspicion and expecting a catch or drawback beyond the basic responsibility such a position entails, because clearly the mascot has to have some sort of ulterior motive and the girl is just another helpless pawn. This is the nilhism that's crept in that bothers me.

Some series seem to be better about it than others, but the two main ones I've had the chance to watch (Madoka itself, and Yuki Yuna) both take an approach of trying to have their cake and eat it too, with the drawbacks and the deconstruction, but then a hasty happy ending to offset that. (Madoka at least gets a pass because rewriting the setting mechanics to make it possible is the entire point, but Yuki Yuna was much sloppier about the whole thing in a way that makes me suspect the apparent optimism there was forced and insincere, especially after the big twist of a few episodes earlier.) Other series, like Raising Project and Site, sound like they don't even try that much. So what I see from those is a pretty persistent theme of "everything is out to get you, you are helpless, everything is pointless, and only if you're extremely lucky a literal miracle might come along to make things better." Very different from the takeaway I got from Sailor Moon as a child.

And again, this is only a small corner of the totality of the Magical Girl series out there, and it sounds like the vast majority of them do retain that core of optimism that I consider so important. Unfortunately, it's also the loudest corner now, with a lot of the rest requiring much deeper digging to find. The online culture around magical girls has similarly shifted, with the default assumption being the revised expectations Madoka has set forth. Sometimes that can be handled well, but much like the official products, much more often it seems to lean into that for shock value and being dark for darkness' sake rather than saying anything meaningful with it.
 
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Inspired by recent discussions both here and on Discord, I thought it might be a good (or potentially terrible) idea to open a debate about the "Magical Girl Problem" - namely, the shift in tone of the genre (and its fanworks) after a certain anime aired in 2011. There seem to be lots of different schools of thought about this. Was the shift as dramatic as it appears, or is it exaggerated? How much of the shift is actually directly the fault of that certain anime? Can we expect the average tone to swing back into lighter territory? And is this trend towards darkness a good thing for the genre, a bad one, or somewhere in between? And what's with all the Magical Girl quests that open with scenes of monster-induced genocide, seriously?

A genre which exists at least 30 years if not longer will spawn numerous off-shoots, deconstructions, reconstructions, and alternate interpretations alongside the traditional works. As a result I think it was inevitable that magical girl shows would have their own "anti-canon" of shows that question or test its central premises. Its impossible for any piece of art that makes claims about the world to avoid it.

I don't view the existence of such deconstructions as devastating to the original set of works. For example, children's fantasy has not been destroyed by its various reinterpretations, nor have the more "mature" works which play with the same themes pushed out the original form. I think the situation is the same here. @Broken Base has covered the continuation of more traditional magical girl shows and I won't rehash that. Suffice to say that a "certain anime" (any particular reason we're talking in allusions here?) did not wipe out the traditional magical girl show no more than Evangelion ended the traditional mecha or Animorphs destroyed the western teenage hero story. Rather, I think it a good thing that the genre is able to support a variety of artistic interpretations. It speaks to the strength of the underlying material which the genre engages with. That the traditional magical girl story was not destroyed by its deconstructions speaks to the strength of its core ideas and themes. The fact that a "certain anime" actually ended up affirming some of the core tenants of the genre (before the artistic abomination of Rebellion, anyway) shows the genre's continued appeal.

I think a big part of the subtext here is that there's a deep fear that the genre will be taken over by male Otaku, destroying a traditionally feminine genre and robbing future generations of their Sailor Moon or Precure. I understand this fear; the Otakuization of Anime is an ongoing phenomenon and resources to support animation are not infinite. I don't think this has happened, but there's definitely an element of conflict outside of the genre itself about who its "for". I must confess my engagement with the MG fandom beyond just scouting out potential shows to watch is minimal, so I don't see this conflict first-hand.
 
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There was a thread some months back, where we tried to brainstorm about fusing the Magical Girl Genre with Cosmic Horror.

And we couldn't.

The themes are just too inimical. The universe doesn't care in either, but the reaction to this is extremely different between the two. In Cosmic Horror the universe wins, the dark and uncaring nihilism of the universe grinds down the protagonist until they have either died or lost their mind. In a Magical Girl show the protagonists, through mutuality and cooperation and self-sacrifice and other feminine virtues, make the universe care. In the face of the grim darkness of the world, faced with the Hard Choices, the "Investigator" does what is expedient in hopes of saving what can be saved, while the Magical Girl does what is right. And the investigator finds themselves slowly becoming the monsters they fight, while Usagi defeats Mistress Nine and saves Hotaru.

The Magical Girl Universe is typically a very dark place. But Magical Girls, from Usagi to Madoka, are in the business of letting there be light.
 
There was a thread some months back, where we tried to brainstorm about fusing the Magical Girl Genre with Cosmic Horror.

And we couldn't.

The themes are just too inimical. The universe doesn't care in either, but the reaction to this is extremely different between the two. In Cosmic Horror the universe wins, the dark and uncaring nihilism of the universe grinds down the protagonist until they have either died or lost their mind. In a Magical Girl show the protagonists, through mutuality and cooperation and self-sacrifice and other feminine virtues, make the universe care. In the face of the grim darkness of the world, faced with the Hard Choices, the "Investigator" does what is expedient in hopes of saving what can be saved, while the Magical Girl does what is right. And the investigator finds themselves slowly becoming the monsters they fight, while Usagi defeats Mistress Nine and saves Hotaru.

The Magical Girl Universe is typically a very dark place. But Magical Girls, from Usagi to Madoka, are in the business of letting there be light.

Doesn't Madoka basically go through this? She overcomes the cosmic horror of a cruelly rational universe filled with powers beyond herself through those the feminine virtues you describe. Perhaps the point is that in any fusion the magical girl genre's underlying moral convictions must win. Otherwise it really doesn't feel like a magical girl story.

EDIT: I think that may be your point; the thematics that make the cosmic horror "genre" cannot survive contact with magical girls.
 
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The Magical Girl Universe is typically a very dark place. But Magical Girls, from Usagi to Madoka, are in the business of letting there be light.

My take:

You can go into a Magical Girl anime wanting to make the viewer feel tense. You can go into a Magical Girl anime wanting to make the viewer want to cry. You can go into a Magical Girl anime wanting to make your viewer feel like there is no hope. But, if you go into a magical girl anime and want, when all is said and done, to have your viewer feel despair and not, on some level, have a smile on their face, or a belief in a better tomorrow... you should be writing in a different genre.
 
Doesn't Madoka basically go through this? She overcomes the cosmic horror of a cruelly rational universe filled with powers beyond herself through those the feminine virtues you describe. Perhaps the point is that in any fusion the magical girl genre's underlying moral convictions must win. Otherwise it really doesn't feel like a magical girl story.

EDIT: I think that may be your point; the thematics that make the cosmic horror "genre" cannot survive contact with magical girls.

And if you do have the magical girl genre's underlying moral convictions win, then it isn't a cosmic horror story. They are antithetical, one cannot survive the other.

My take:

You can go into a Magical Girl anime wanting to make the viewer feel tense. You can go into a Magical Girl anime wanting to make the viewer want to cry. You can go into a Magical Girl anime wanting to make your viewer feel like there is no hope. But, if you go into a magical girl anime and want, when all is said and done, to have your viewer feel despair and not, on some level, have a smile on their face, or a belief in a better tomorrow... you should be writing in a different genre.

Puella Magi Madoka Magica was the first ending Urobutchi Gen wrote that was happy on any level. He went in intending it to be as soul crushing as his previous work, setting up the universe such that he could not conceive of any way for there to be a happy ending. Madoka found one anyway.
 
Puella Magi Madoka Magica was the first ending Urobutchi Gen wrote that was happy on any level. He went in intending it to be as soul crushing as his previous work, setting up the universe such that he could not conceive of any way for there to be a happy ending. Madoka found one anyway.

Its really hard to understate the impact Madoka had on me when I watched in 2011. I found it an immensely powerful story of hope in the face of hopelessness. Its been interesting to see how views of it have shifted since it first came out and imitators began to sprout up in its wake. Nobody can deny its cultural impact, but the divided reactions to what came after Madoka have reflected back onto the original work in ways that were not entirely positive for it.
 
If there have been dumb imitators of PMMM that take only the surface darkness without the inner themes that made it shine so brightly, then that is no more PMMM's fault than the comics of the 90s is watchman's fault. The dumb imitators are to blame, not the work that inspired them.
 
Madoka's fantastic and all but people need to like, just get over it and watch some other good magical girl shows.
 
Madoka's fantastic and all but people need to like, just get over it and watch some other good magical girl shows.
This, this, this. It's the same with Evangelion or Kamen Rider Gaim. Yeah, they're all subsersive and shit, and are held in high regard(though I'm presonally not fond of Gaim), but like...

You haven't like, conquered or transcended their whole genres by watching them. There's other stuff, a lot of it very good. Watch it. Talk about it. There's so much quality fiction out there.
 
If there have been dumb imitators of PMMM that take only the surface darkness without the inner themes that made it shine so brightly, then that is no more PMMM's fault than the comics of the 90s is watchman's fault. The dumb imitators are to blame, not the work that inspired them.
Absolutely this.
Success breeds derivatives and merchandising.

Merchandising then goes after what sells.
And well...what sells doesn't change a whole lot in nature.
 
The fact people don't go back and witness the formulative years of the Magical Girl makes my soul hurt, there's so many gems and diamonds in the rough that are flat out some of the best fiction I've ever seen. Utena for an example is a masterpiece.
 
The fact people don't go back and witness the formulative years of the Magical Girl makes my soul hurt, there's so many gems and diamonds in the rough that are flat out some of the best fiction I've ever seen. Utena for an example is a masterpiece.
Oh god, now you've got me thinking about how if Utena had come out four or so years later it might have been an SB darling in the same vein as Evangelion. Can you I M A G I N E all the bad takes? All the surface level, subtext-and-sometimes-text-missing readings similar to the "Shinji needs to Be More Awesome and pressure Asuka into a sexual relationship" nonsense? Stuff like "utena's a prince and anthy's a princess", or worse "utena and anthy should be co-princesses belonging to each other".
 
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