The Lighthouses and the Pit (Fantasy Mage Quest)

[RedV]

The extreme emotions have benefits as well as disadvantages. For example; a calm character is probably more likely to get along with people (advantage) but probably more likely to take the easy path(disadvantage).
For emotions, it should just be another consideration in which power to choose.

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I don't think excess Greed / Fear / Despair etc have positive effects, and any positive effects they do have are inferior to losing on a rational decision making process. It feels like one third of the powers are getting emotions considered negative by majority of people, which is bound to bias votes against them.

I mean, one option has X power + associated emotional cost and other has X power + no associated emotional cost. In nearly all circumstances it is better to choose second one.

 

[Stasis]

Stuff

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Yeah, this is getting nowhere. I feel like you're missing all my points, possibly deliberately since you're claiming i've said things i have explicitly not said or that i've even said the opposite about.
But i guess i might be misunderstanding or missing your points as well.

Agree to disagree?

I don't actually want a bow-sword/sword-bow anyways. It was just an idea i though was cool that i figured could give some synergy between runesmith, bladebound, and longshot.

 

[Chrestomanci]

Mindscour's skill looting isn't very useful for Swallow, and it is mostly anti-human.

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It's value is entirely based how it works and if Swallow is going to get into conflict with other people.

I strongly suspect that Swallow will fight other people, making this more useful. But maybe not.
The fact the administrators of Rosolin are Mindscours suggests the possibility that they can take skills without depriving them from the original holder. Combined with the calm nature of Mindscours and the unlikelihood that the Lighthouse creator/s would make a magic only harmful to humans, it may be possible to pay people to give permission to take their skills. This would rapidly accelerate training, if it is true.
"They have no esoteric effects known" is interesting, the other descriptions simply say they lack things, the Mindscour description says they have no known esoteric effects, not they lack esoteric effects. This is probably overly optimistic and reading too much into it, but there is a chance.

Personally I would suggest we investigate Rosolin's Mindscours before judging. Just as we are (hopefully) going to learn about the Runesmiths in the next update.

I don't think excess Greed / Fear / Despair etc have positive effects, and any positive effects they do have are inferior to losing on a rational decision making process. It feels like one third of the powers are getting emotions considered negative by majority of people, which is bound to bias votes against them.

I mean, one option has X power + associated emotional cost and other has X power + no associated emotional cost. In nearly all circumstances it is better to choose second one.

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Excess Greed means a wealthier character "pushed towards options of accumulation", but not necessarily a bad one "You would use it for good, of course". It means (with our compassion) becoming a billionaire philanthropist. Non-greedy choices are still possible, if much harder, and we would be able to change it over the long term.

"X power + associated emotional cost" well that depends on how you want Swallow's character to be.
A character can still be interesting even with negative emotional traits, for example marvel's Doom character is arrogant to the point of foolishness but is still a good character. A character's flaws can sometimes be the most interesting thing about them, Javert (Les Misérables) obsession with the letter of the law is the best thing about that character. My examples are not the best, but should still show that even with some "emotions considered negative by majority of people," Swallow (and the quest) will still be interesting and worthwhile.

Yeah, this is getting nowhere. I feel like you're missing all my points, possibly deliberately since you're claiming i've said things i have explicitly not said or that i've even said the opposite about.
But i guess i might be misunderstanding or missing your points as well.

Agree to disagree?

I don't actually want a bow-sword/sword-bow anyways. It was just an idea i though was cool that i figured could give some synergy between runesmith, bladebound, and longshot.

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"Yeah, this is getting nowhere."
"Agree to disagree?"
Agreed.

 

[RedV]

Excess Greed means a wealthier character "pushed towards options of accumulation", but not necessarily a bad one "You would use it for good, of course". It means (with our compassion) becoming a billionaire philanthropist. Non-greedy choices are still possible, if much harder, and we would be able to change it over the long term.

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Here's the thing - non magically greedy characters can also take that path, and do it just as well. Emotion ampli just takes away our choices as compared to non-emotion affecting, and doesn't offer anything like increased power/utility to make up for significant cost of losing control over the character.

 

[Chrestomanci]

Here's the thing - non magically greedy characters can also take that path, and do it just as well. Emotion ampli just takes away our choices as compared to non-emotion affecting, and doesn't offer anything like increased power/utility to make up for significant cost of losing control over the character.

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"significant cost of losing control over the character."
- - - I don't think that would be the result. We are offered roughly three choices each update, emotion influences what choices are available but the amount of choices are the same.

For example Compassionate locked Defensive fighting style, but unlocked Interception style. Combined with stubborn, we gained a superior style.
Offensive increases the chance to hurt enemies but increases the chance to get hurt. Defensive decreases the chance to get hurt but decreases the chance to hurt enemies. Interception has the same cost/benefit as Defensive but also the additional benefit of making our allies safer.
Neutral emotion choices give access to the standard skills, but emotion influenced skills can be better. Anger might unlock a bladebound berserker technique for example.

 

[tricholysis]

(I do wonder why some powers have permanent emotional effects we consider bad when they aren't really superior to the powers that don't have "bad" emotional effects. Seems odd from a doylist perspective / balance )

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Though as mentioned, we don't know if other Ascensions follow the same rules. It might have barely any emotional effect, or it might somehow be worse, or something else entirely. An emotion aura? Who knows.

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Here's the thing - non magically greedy characters can also take that path, and do it just as well. Emotion ampli just takes away our choices as compared to non-emotion affecting, and doesn't offer anything like increased power/utility to make up for significant cost of losing control over the character.

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etc. etc. lots of quotes like that

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The powers are the results of the emotions, not the other way around...is my impression of the Lighthouses. The 'become more/less greedy' part of class choice was during character generation, so it's not that Swallow herself was standing at the top of the Orange Lighthouse making the decision, but instead that she wasn't already sufficiently greedy or greedless to become anything other than a Bladebound. The other choices that players had regarding her emotional make-up all were phrased in the same chargen-jargon, and had nothing directly to do with the Lighthouses at all, except for their retroactive influence on her decisionmaking.

So IMO it's not that becoming a Stormchaser will make her despairing, but that her fundamentally hopeful nature will prohibit her from becoming a Stormchaser at all unless her emotional predispositions change. As an example.

 

[RedV]

The powers are the results of the emotions, not the other way around...is my impression of the Lighthouses. The 'become more/less greedy' part of class choice was during character generation, so it's not that Swallow herself was standing at the top of the Orange Lighthouse making the decision, but instead that she wasn't already sufficiently greedy or greedless to become anything other than a Bladebound. The other choices that players had regarding her emotional make-up all were phrased in the same chargen-jargon, and had nothing directly to do with the Lighthouses at all, except for their retroactive influence on her decisionmaking.

So IMO it's not that becoming a Stormchaser will make her despairing, but that her fundamentally hopeful nature will prohibit her from becoming a Stormchaser at all unless her emotional predispositions change. As an example.

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But we could choose to vote for Tremorfeet or Fleshcraft and did so several updates in, so it doesn't seem like that to me. If it was it would admittedly wreck our build plans, so it would be nice to know.

 

[Stasis]

So at first i thought Vineweaver was rather boring. But then i realized it's actually great for camping.

You grow some flooring, you grow some firewood and kindle, you grow a nice hut, you grow some tasty fruit, you grow some traps, you grow some bait for catching meat, and then you can optionally grow some weed or something.

And i don't know if it's at all possible, but imagine growing a massive tree(or bush or something), and then via that controlling tons of roots and using infinite sharpness on all of them via the tree, and then you have a (sort of)remote controlled blender.

Although you'd have to set it up way ahead of time, and again this might not even be possible.

 

[deadcrystal]

Why is combat precog useless? It's really good for a fighter!

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Combat precog absolutely isn't useless...except when it comes with a personality shift so extreme you would never come within ten miles of combat.

Plus Bladebounds ridic blade-skills makes combat precog...mostly irrelevant.

Its the option for an assassin type to bring an armory of options for a deep dive orgenerally projecting force for the squishier types

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True, but either you're stealing spells, in which case you're making enemies, or you're buying/trading for them which seems like a bad economy of action compared to just having abilities without having to do extra work in order to just access them.

The flexibility is cool and all, but with a good spread of skills and collaboration it seems not necessary.

The Thunderfist seems like the natural fit and comes with everything a budding magic ninja assassin would want. However, the big drawback here is that it's internal magic.

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I kind of consider that one of the main advantages? I really really like Internal magic. Sure it's not as immediately powerful as External, but you don't run through your mp in ten minutes and are then useless for 24hrs.

Thunderfist appears to be the 'Give yourself permanent stat boosts and special abilities' type of Mage, and gods I love the synergy with Bladebound.

Aside from the resilience side of things I'd imagine you can do other shenanigans with it. Like give yourself night-vision. Or make it so you only need two hours of sleep a day.

Plus Internal Mages are way less vulnerable to Nullifiers.

Nullifier against Coldhand = Normal person vs Normal Person

Nullifier against Bladebound = Normal person vs Person who can't use Blade spells...but who is still a literally superhumanly skilled opponent.

Nullifier against Thunderfist = Normal person vs Superhuman who can punch through steel and spit acid.

We know it is possible for a Glimpse to be a combatant, since it is common knowledge that they have access to a combat precog path of magic.

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Uh, not quite. Their magic is more effective and easier to use the shorter into the future it is. So combat precog timescales.

IIRC it's more that glimpses are fearful to the point where it seriously affects their ability to actually function. Consider that Flesh-Shaper would have made Swallow basically greedless and Earth magic would have made him immensely greedy.

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Yeah this. It was specifically noted in an earlier update that a Bladebound found the very concept of a Glimpse going anywhere there was any risk of danger laughable.

Glimpse means so scared you never leave your room and pass notes under the door. Your room which is in a secret bunker in the center of the city.

My decision on whether Longshot is good would depend on it's synergy with Bladebound. Currently it appears to lack synergies.

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I don't think there will be any synergy between the two.

I also don't think there needs to be any synergy. I'd say the potential benefit of Longshot is getting an entirely different skillset to cover a completely different role we're not remotely suited for.

Not really sold on Longshot to be honest, but the Red Lighthouse alternatives don't grab me either. Defs not Mindscour imo, so it's either Longshot or Breathtaker.

 

[Sidhenlae]

I kind of consider that one of the main advantages? I really really like Internal magic. Sure it's not as immediately powerful as External, but you don't run through your mp in ten minutes and are then useless for 24hrs.

Thunderfist appears to be the 'Give yourself permanent stat boosts and special abilities' type of Mage, and gods I love the synergy with Bladebound.

Aside from the resilience side of things I'd imagine you can do other shenanigans with it. Like give yourself night-vision. Or make it so you only need two hours of sleep a day.

Plus Internal Mages are way less vulnerable to Nullifiers.

Nullifier against Coldhand = Normal person vs Normal Person

Nullifier against Bladebound = Normal person vs Person who can't use Blade spells...but who is still a literally superhumanly skilled opponent.

Nullifier against Thunderfist = Normal person vs Superhuman who can punch through steel and spit acid.

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Leaving out the second sentence in the quote changes the context it was intended within.

The Thunderfist seems like the natural fit and comes with everything a budding magic ninja assassin would want. However, the big drawback here is that it's internal magic. This means that we'd have to choose between advancing our Bladebound abilities or Thunderfist ones and I doubt we can just take 10 years off to grind our skills at our leisure.

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I agree that internal magic as a whole is preferable to external. However, from a power point of view, choosing another internal magic ascendancy is not going to make Swallow exponentially more powerful. It's going to be a gradual growth in which time has to be rationed between two distinct sets of skills and I remain dubious we will have such a long time to sit around and grind in peace.

That's why I'm advocating to grab one external ascendancy as it will give a whole new set of powers at will that need minimal time investment to master. It'll give an explosive growth in our power rather than gradual and will allow Swallow to kill far more Darklings, accelerating her growth even further.

I do not doubt a Bladebound/Thunderfist combo would end up strong, but it's going to take time. External magic gives us that power right away and it also remains relevant until the very end as each Darkling we kill will enlarge our mana pool.

 

[tricholysis]

But we could choose to vote for Tremorfeet or Fleshcraft and did so several updates in, so it doesn't seem like that to me. If it was it would admittedly wreck our build plans, so it would be nice to know.

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Just because the players were in control of the outcome in that IRL instance doesn't mean that it, in world, was an effect overlaid on top of a previous blank slate. It certainly doesn't indicate that the player choice of mage class was a character choice. Never should you confuse player choice with character choice, or let yourself believe that they are always or ever the same thing.

Go to the update in question:

The power of the Orange Lighthouse was linked to avarice, and it was the breadth of your greed that truly set you on the path for the power you claimed. For you were...

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Notice the wording. You 'were' greedy/not greedy/greedless, not 'would be' or 'wanted to be' or anything else that implies a change of state on Swallow. It 'was the breadth of your greed', as in that particular breadth of greed is already possessed in the past compared to that point, and it's not anything newly introduced to the emotions of Swallow-to-be.

Many of the descriptions of the breadths of greed say more or less explicitly that they are already retroactively inherent to the character.

Greed pulses through your veins and arteries, and it always truly has.
...
The truth is this: you are a soul with few desires for yourself.

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You shouldn't be fooled by the use of 'become' in the game-text, because that is within and referring to the character generation paradigm, where not-yet-Swallow is malleable and changing their character is facilitated by the QM. The author's note immediately after this section, after all, discusses the various game consequences of the choice, such as the relative difficulty of changing Greed or the other Emotions in comparison to that single game-moment.

These stats are quite changeable in the course of the game, as they're comparatively minor Emotions compared to the Greed you might gain or lose here. This isn't game-long (you can change your Greed over time), but it'd take a lot of concerted effort over a lot of time by the thread to reduce (or increase) Greed to neutral - in-game years without major life-changing events.

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The first Lighthouse must allow the players to vote freely without regard to the character's emotions, because an unnamed chargen-fresh character doesn't have emotions yet. This is a forced vote, for the same reason the character must survive the first Lighthouse, because otherwise there's no point.

But afterwards, the QM will have plenty of material to determine the mélange of feelings most dominant in Swallow's character, so later Lighthouses have no similar forced vote. They also will have less forced survival. If Swallow doesn't do her due diligence before trying for a Second Ascension, then the QM isn't really obligated as strongly to give her plot armor—the players have had the opportunity to tell a story already, and it's just one that ends in death. (There is some obligation and expectation of plot armor...but only as much as the QM lets us have.)

Later votes will not need to be game-votes in the same way. They have the freedom to be more story-based.

The character generation process of this quest is very elegant—gaining any degree of any emotion bars the chargen from going to the related Lighthouse, until the very last choice. That last choice therefore by necessity determines everything to do with not-yet-Swallow's Greed, and I've already shown that it does so in a retroactive way, and not in the manner of an emotional overlay, like you suppose.

The power an aspirant gains seems linked to their personality - it is not mere gossip to say that Runesmiths are patient and careful, while Stormchasers are easily angered and mercurial.

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Look at this quote. Look at the tenses. The 'power an aspirant gains' remains in the present while 'linked' is, of course, a past tense. There is a strict order of progression within the language itself. Within the world, story-wise, from what we have, the power stems from the personality. The personality does not stem from the power.

 

[Stasis]

It's going to be a gradual growth in which time has to be rationed between two distinct sets of skills and I remain dubious we will have such a long time to sit around and grind in peace.

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Do we actually know this? I mean, we do have to train regardless, but Thunderfist is training the body while Bladebound is training sword skills.

I feel you could definitely do those at the same time, no need to ration any time between them.

I do think we should get external magic as well, but not the one that means we don't get Thunderfist.

Super-angry is super dumb, so Breathtaker is right out, Fireeyes are obsessively emotional and means no Thunderfist so that's out too, Stormchaser is despairing, so that's out as well.
This leaves Watersinger, which is imo quite good, Coldhands because we're already stubborn and is probably decent but i think it feels kind of meh, and Vineweaver which sucks in direct combat but is otherwise amazing and everyone should get it.

 

[occipitallobe]

Amongst all this talk of how/what ascensions we should/should not take, something that struck me as a thought was this:
How DO artifacts work!?
Like, Rune-Smithing explicitly works only for that particular smith right? And while Alchemists and Flesh-Crafters can indeed effect objects...Basically, I'm thinking unless Artifacts are gated beyond Third Ascension or higher, there should still occasionally be new ones being made, as opposed to all of them being things scavenged from the Pit.

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This much is correct. No mage of the Second Ascension or lower can craft what would normally be considered an Artifact (which tend to be powerful magical items either usable by anyone, mages only, or a single type of mage).

The powers are the results of the emotions, not the other way around...is my impression of the Lighthouses. The 'become more/less greedy' part of class choice was during character generation, so it's not that Swallow herself was standing at the top of the Orange Lighthouse making the decision, but instead that she wasn't already sufficiently greedy or greedless to become anything other than a Bladebound. The other choices that players had regarding her emotional make-up all were phrased in the same chargen-jargon, and had nothing directly to do with the Lighthouses at all, except for their retroactive influence on her decisionmaking.

So IMO it's not that becoming a Stormchaser will make her despairing, but that her fundamentally hopeful nature will prohibit her from becoming a Stormchaser at all unless her emotional predispositions change. As an example.

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This is correct - I really should've made that more clear, apologies all. The chargen process was essentially 'rule out [Lighthouse], get [emotional trait associated with Lighthouse to a moderate degree]'. At the end a final trait was picked (and since either an extreme emotion or middle ground was required, this trait would've been more extreme than the rest had Swallow not gone Bladebound), but this was Swallow's nature all along. If you want a specific powerset, time to start grinding the emotion associated with it. Or go Pit-Diving and see if there's anything there that can hack the process...​

 

[occipitallobe]

FP from discussion? Doesn't appear to be a thing.

IIRC it was mentioned that Glimpses very rarely venture out. Of course, emotions change.

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That's a fair point, and to be honest I think there's been some really good discussion, some of the best the thread's had so far, along with some interesting analysis. I won't award a Fate Point for every discussion like this, but the first one of this depth seems like a reasonable place to award one.

Swallow has, through careful thought and consideration earned the peculiar gratitude of Fate itself. That this should happen when so many other careful thinkers litter the paths of time with their corpses is unusual, but best to take what is given and not question the capriciousness of the universe.

She now possesses two Fate Points.

 

[occipitallobe]

Inserted tally

Adhoc vote count started by occipitallobe on Apr 24, 2018 at 8:17 AM, finished with 814 posts and 18 votes.

• ---

  8 people have voted

  [x] Visit the Runesmiths

  • veekie
  • Stasis
  • RedV
  • Shard
  • Chrestomanci
  • Barondoctor
  • Sidhenlae
  • Asael

  6 people have voted

  [X] Visit the Vineweavers

  • sidestory
  • Nevill
  • Gingganz
  • Kingofbooks
  • Jrin
  • deadcrystal

  4 people have voted

  [X] VIsit the Combat Triad

  • Zaealix
  • InterstellarHobo
  • ChildishChimera
  • wingstrike96

 

[occipitallobe]

And just before I get into writing the new update, when focusing on Ascensions, keep in mind the Second Ascension is an awe-inspiring achievement in these fading days, and those mages with such power are rare, and rightly feared. The Third Ascension has not been seen since the Age of Light, so if Swallow were to achieve it, she would eclipse all other mages in documented history.

Queen Amelgynn and under a hundred (possibly around ten, though Swallow has no exact numbers) Second Ascension magi with flame and earth powers were sufficient to seal the Pit itself (for the most part) and allow the growth of cities and towns to the point where Rosolin was over ten times the size it is today (it suffered the most, being nearest to the Shadowlands).

I suppose what I'm really saying there is that you can gather information about the Second Ascension, figure out how it works, and what to do with effort and comparatively little danger. It's the most attainable Ascension by far, so if you're concerned about builds and where for Swallow to go next, focus on that one.

edit: Technically called the vote, but I had a bit of a night out (public holiday tomorrow), and my brain is just refusing to supply words to write with. I'll table this one until after I wake up tomorrow.

 

[Grigori]

So our current strongest personality traits are:

Hopeful, Compassionate, and Stubborn.

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So I'd say our best bets are a Hopeful Runesmith or Stubborn Coldhand, for our ascension. Runesmiths would be a good addition, especially since we're already needing to use blades so why not make those blades better? Then there's the possibility of armour to make us less of a glass cannon. Coldhands is situational but could be a good flat increase in offence. Not too interested in it though.

I'm not really sure what Compassionate could translate to. Fireeye's "loving and emotional" seems a more personal thing whereas I see compassion as more empathetic. So maybe Thunderfists. Another grower rather than a shower, it'd be going all in on super warrior type though.

Other schools from the Blue and Green Lighthouses ought be out unless we undergo a massive change in personality.
So, no:

• Vineweavers/Alchemists - since we're too Stubborn
• Watersingers/Stormchasers - since we're too Hopeful
• Cancellers - since we're too Compassionate

I also don't think we'd fit among the fearful Glimpses but I think we could be Shaderunners/Spellthieves or any of the Red Lighthouses schools.

• Red Lighthouse Magi:
  Mindscours are calm.
  Longshots are neither calm nor angry.
  Breathtakers are angry.
• Green Lighthouse Magi
  Coldhands are stubborn.
  Vineweavers are neither stubborn nor mercurial.
  Alchemists are mercurial and changeable.
• Yellow Lighthouse Magi
  Glimpses are fearful.
  Shaderunners are neither fearful nor fearless.
  Spellthieves are courageous.
• Violet Lighthouse Magi
  Fireeyes are loving and emotional, often attached to the point of obsession
  Thunderfists are neither overly attached or unconcerned.
  Cancellers are detached and unconcerned.
• Blue Lighthouse Magi
  Runesmiths are hopeful, pouring that hope into items only they can use.
  Watersingers are neither hopeless nor hopeful.
  Stormchasers are despairing.

 

[Stasis]

It's a shame, since i like both Vineweaver and Watersinger while i think Coldhands is too situational and Runesmith seems more dull the more i think about it. Although i suppose it might be better than i think.

I'm all in for Shaderunner, Thunderfist, and Longshot though. And i'm okay with Spellthief and Mindscours. But being angry and/or obsessive is bad.


So rather than powersets, maybe we should think of what kind of person we want Swallow to be? For me i guess that'd be:
Neither greedy nor non-greedy
Calm
Neither stubborn nor mercurial
Courageous
Neither overly attached or unconcerned
Hopeful

Except that doesn't match the powerset i want properly. Ugh.

 

[Saidoro]

So, absent any emotions confirmed beyond a reasonable doubt, Yellow seems the best bet. If we're neutral we get shaderunner which is really good for us and if we're courageous we get spellthief which is even better.

 

[RedV]

Thunderfists seem to be most effective for us if we're only looking at one more realistic Ascension. Most versatile, combos pretty well with melee combat, etc. I'm not very attached to / inspired by Thunderfist at all, but it just seems pretty good.

Maybe we can be a Spellthief? It's the most versatile possible Second Ascension - it would remove a lot of the need to get more Ascensions due to versatility boost.

 

[tricholysis]

Personally I think going with an external magic is the way to go, if Swallow's going to pick on a minmax basis.

Other schools from the Blue and Green Lighthouses ought be out unless we undergo a massive change in personality.

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I don't think that's it's quite the way that you guess. The extreme emotions opposing Swallow's current emotions are, of course, probably out, but I think it's more likely that she'll get the neutral emotions than even the matching extremes. Chargen not-yet-Swallow as a Tremorfoot or Fleshcrafter would be really greedy or really greedless, for example, suggesting that being merely a little greedy or a little greedless wouldn't be enough to qualify for that class. And extreme emotions are naturally more difficult to hold and more likely to be disliked by voters. Taking those two facts together, making the step from Hopeful->Not Hopeful will be easier than Hopeful->Really Hopeful, and at the same time Hopeful->Hopeful (maintenance of the status quo) will not allow Swallow to become a Runesmith, IMO.

So Watersinger isn't disqualifiable on that basis alone, for example, and in fact Coldhand/Runesmith are, in my view, actually harder to reach than their neutral equivalents even if Swallow has 'headstarts' on becoming extreme enough to become one of those. Stubborn is, after all, not Really Stubborn, and I think being only Stubborn to a degree will be more likely to give Vineweaver than Coldhand.

Likewise, I think we should be more likely to disqualify extreme emotions in areas where Swallow is neutral. Neutral->Angry->Really Angry would be a more difficult set of steps than even Hopeful->Really Hopeful, let alone Hopeful->Hopeful or Hopeful->Neutral.

You're also somewhat inconsistent, disqualifying Vineweavers/Watersingers but not Thunderfists...the only reason I can think of for you to be inconsistent on this point is a personal preference for the Thunderfist powerset relative to Vineweavers/Watersingers. If that's true, then you should say so plainly.

 

[Grigori]

I don't think that's it's quite the way that you guess. The extreme emotions opposing Swallow's current emotions are, of course, probably out, but I think it's more likely that she'll get the neutral emotions than even the matching extremes. Chargen not-yet-Swallow as a Tremorfoot or Fleshcrafter would be really greedy or really greedless, for example, suggesting that being merely a little greedy or a little greedless wouldn't be enough to qualify for that class. And extreme emotions are naturally more difficult to hold and more likely to be disliked by voters. Taking those two facts together, making the step from Hopeful->Not Hopeful will be easier than Hopeful->Really Hopeful, and at the same time Hopeful->Hopeful (maintenance of the status quo) will not allow Swallow to become a Runesmith, IMO.

So Watersinger isn't disqualifiable on that basis alone, for example, and in fact Coldhand/Runesmith are, in my view, actually harder to reach than their neutral equivalents even if Swallow has 'headstarts' on becoming extreme enough to become one of those. Stubborn is, after all, not Really Stubborn, and I think being only Stubborn to a degree will be more likely to give Vineweaver than Coldhand.

Likewise, I think we should be more likely to disqualify extreme emotions in areas where Swallow is neutral. Neutral->Angry->Really Angry would be a more difficult set of steps than even Hopeful->Really Hopeful, let alone Hopeful->Hopeful or Hopeful->Neutral.

You're also somewhat inconsistent, disqualifying Vineweavers/Watersingers but not Thunderfists...the only reason I can think of for you to be inconsistent on this point is a personal preference for the Thunderfist powerset relative to Vineweavers/Watersingers. If that's true, then you should say so plainly.

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My view's based on the fact that, while chargen could have led to really Greedy or Greedless, Swallow isn't defined by her midling Greed to the extent that she's defined as Hopeful, Stubborn and Compassionate. In my opinion, that's enough to qualify her as those extremes.

Following from that position, it's consistent to view Thunderfists as different from Vineweavers/Watersingers. I consider Swallow at the extreme end of Hopeful and Stubborn, so it would be difficult to become neutral in those traits. I am, however, unsure if Compassionate directly translates to the extremes of Loving and Emotional. As said in my previous post, I consider Compassion more empathetic than the almost obsessive emotional focus of the Violet Lighthouse and think we sit somewhere between Fireeyes and Thunderfists.

 

[deadcrystal]

I'm not really sure what Compassionate could translate to.

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I am, however, unsure if Compassionate directly translates to the extremes of Loving and Emotional. As said in my previous post, I consider Compassion more empathetic than the almost obsessive emotional focus of the Violet Lighthouse and think we sit somewhere between Fireeyes and Thunderfists.

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Compassion has no effect either way as it relates to the unusable Indigo tower. The one no one can ascend at and we have no clue what powers you could have gotten from it.

 

[tricholysis]

My view's based on the fact that, while chargen could have led to really Greedy or Greedless, I think the fact that Swallow isn't defined by a lack of either of those traits to the extent that she's defined as Hopeful, Stubborn and Compassionate. In my opinion, that's enough to qualify her as those extremes.

Following from that position, it isn't inconsistent to view Thunderfists as different from Vineweavers/Watersingers. I consider Swallow at the extreme end of Hopeful and Stubborn, so it would be difficult to become neutral in those traits. I am, however, unsure if Compassionate directly translates to the extremes of Loving and Emotional. As said in my previous post, I consider Compassion more empathetic than the almost obsessive emotional focus of the Violet Lighthouse and think we sit somewhere between Fireeyes and Thunderfists.

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Well...the 'she has a trait and therefore is extreme enough to count for that Lighthouse' vs. 'she isn't extreme enough to count so the Lighthouse will give her the neutral option' thing can't really be resolved yet/ever. So I'll just leave that for the most part, with one exception.

To go back to the chargen game-text, the choices at the very end, that would give not-yet-Swallow one of the extreme classes, would give an appropriately extreme feeling. Compare the game-text where Swallow gains her partial degree of Compassion, and the game-text where she could have gained enough greed or greedlessness to have a class matching that amount of feeling.

Become more Compassionate. Your fear of what you faced means you will not cross the Shadowlands to enter the Violet Lighthouse.

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Become EXTRAORDINARILY more Greedy.

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Become EXTRAORDINARILY less Greedy.

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If the game-text distinguishes these, then they're clearly different. Swallow isn't EXTRAORDINARILY Compassionate, she's just a normal level of Compassionate.

Compassion has no effect either way as it relates to the unusable Indigo tower. The one no one can ascend at and we have no clue what powers you could have gotten from it.

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Notice that Compassion corresponds to the Violet Lighthouse, even though that's different from the DC emotional spectrum.

Become more Compassionate. Your fear of what you faced means you will not cross the Shadowlands to enter the Violet Lighthouse.

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Not quite the same system.

 

[Grigori]

Compassion has no effect either way as it relates to the unusable Indigo tower. The one no one can ascend at and we have no clue what powers you could have gotten from it.

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That's an interesting point but would the emotions really be so discrete that they wouldn't have any effect on each other? Compassionate seems like it would come in conflict with being Detached and Unconcerned.