The Ecological Restoration Department Planquest

Utopias always collapse into Dystopias. It is Eutopias that actually work in real life and better society as a whole.

In the case of Solarpunk:



Bright and happy nature doesn't translate into a better human society:

- First off Jevons paradox is already taking full effect in some cases of efficiencies in saving resources. Just google a 120 W bulb and see what you get now compared to before LED bulbs were introduced into the general market to save power. The last time I had to go and buy a replacement bulb I went trough multiple stores to find a bulb beneath 10 W and barely found a 6 W bulb.

- Second off the current cultured meat companies are all start-ups that are aiming for a top-down production and distribution. I'm going to need a good explanation how such economic entities are not just operating on greenwashed trickle-down economics before I believe them entering the food market will be a net positive for humanity.

- Third off:



I actually need to quote Das Kapital for this one:

Article:
What experience shows to the capitalist generally is a constantexcess of population, i.e., an excess in relation to the momentary requirementsof surplus-labour-absorbing capital, although this excess is made up ofgenerations of human beings stunted, short-lived, swiftly replacing eachother, plucked, so to say, before maturity. [79] And,indeed, experience shows to the intelligent observer with what swiftnessand grip the capitalist mode of production, dating, historically speaking,only from yesterday, has seized the vital power of the people by the veryroot — shows how the degeneration of the industrial population is onlyretarded by the constant absorption of primitive and physically uncorruptedelements from the country — shows how even the country labourers, in spiteof fresh air and the principle of natural selection, that works so powerfullyamongst them, and only permits the survival of the strongest, are alreadybeginning to die off. [80] Capital that has such goodreasons for denying the sufferings of the legions of workers that surroundit, is in practice moved as much and as little by the sight of the comingdegradation and final depopulation of the human race, as bythe probable fall of the earth into the sun. In every stockjobbing swindleevery one knows that some time or other the crash must come, but everyone hopes that it may fall on the head of his neighbour, after he himselfhas caught the shower of gold and placed it in safety. Aprèsmoi le déluge! [After me, the flood] is the watchword of every capitalist and of everycapitalist nation. Hence Capital is reckless of the health or length oflife of the labourer, unless under compulsion from society. [81]To the out-cry as to the physical and mental degradation, the prematuredeath, the torture of over-work, it answers: Ought these to trouble ussince they increase our profits? But looking at things as a whole, allthis does not, indeed, depend on the good or ill will of the individualcapitalist. Free competition brings out the inherent laws of capitalistproduction, in the shape of external coercive laws having power over everyindividual capitalist. [82]


If one is planning on planting a new world in the ruins of the old one has already bought into the capitalist worldview of "After me, the flood" Well actually in the modern day it is "After me, the inferno" because of the threat of the nuclear holocaust we have been living under since WWII.

- Fourth off the most popular works in the Solarpunk genre have an element of colonialism to them where nature is industrially cultivated to consume the old world, dwellings from previous eras included, trough the use of monocultures which is just bad. See this video for an example of why:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiDBAU2d7oE

- Fifth off life on Planet Earth is primarily amensalistic and we have had multiple extinction events caused by various lifeforms overextending and breaking the at time present climate model including cyanobacteria evolving an oxygen based photosynthesis causing world-wide glaciation because they overdid it and there wasn't enough greenhouse gasses in the atmosphere left to keep the Earth from freezing.

All this combined means that Solarpunk stories that don't deal with the conflict between increased exploitation of the commons by corporations because the same efficacies that could improve the environment could be used to better exploit it on the one side and people who are looking to actually implement ecologically sound solutions that will help everyone and not just the 1% on the other are nothing but corporate propaganda so that people will meet the next cycle of exploitation with a raucous cheer.


So in short you'd like to say that you don't like the premise of the quest and that this isn't for you? Thats perfectly valid if so. However Solarpunk is what the creator of this wanted to write and there's nothing wrong with that.
If you'd like a version of this quest where you deal with the nitty gritty of trying to negotiate with soulless corporations over how your supposed to place greater ecological restrictions on them without them just making that everyone else's problem through cost inflation and the like then go for it.
 
So in short you'd like to say that you don't like the premise of the quest and that this isn't for you? Thats perfectly valid if so. However Solarpunk is what the creator of this wanted to write and there's nothing wrong with that.
If you'd like a version of this quest where you deal with the nitty gritty of trying to negotiate with soulless corporations over how your supposed to place greater ecological restrictions on them without them just making that everyone else's problem through cost inflation and the like then go for it.

Wow. I must've fucked up my explanation badly if that is what you got from my previous post. I'm not against Solarpunk as a genre, I'm against Solarpunk as a genre being used as corporate propaganda.

This quest is inspired by Eve of Destruction so I have some trust that the OP will make this quest interesting for me to participate in. As such I'm sticking around and looking forward to what this quest becomes as the narrative evolves.
 
Wow. I must've fucked up my explanation badly if that is what you got from my previous post. I'm not against Solarpunk as a genre, I'm against Solarpunk as a genre being used as corporate propaganda.

This quest is inspired by Eve of Destruction so I have some trust that the OP will make this quest interesting for me to participate in. As such I'm sticking around and looking forward to what this quest becomes as the narrative evolves.

XD Alright that makes more sense didn't mean to come off too aggressive. Just seen a lot of people going into peoples threads and questioning their story/quest ideas. Thats a pretty reasonable point though it makes sense for Corporations to do exactly that and they do try to shine anything they do in a positive light.
 
Utopias always collapse into Dystopias.
For this entire post i fundamentally disagree with you on multiple base assumptions. Least of all because utopias are impossible to form in the first place, so we have never experienced one.

Second that to say we will build a new world in the ruins of the old does not mean we need nuclear hell fire or the biblical flood to wash it away. The capitalist world is decaying without our input, and to build something new we can do so, and some are trying, without *literally* turning everything into a ruin.

I don't know how talking about capitalist bulb and vat grown meat companies relate to solarpunk.

You linked a video talking about monoculture.... that is not solarpunk. What the people were doing to fix the mess of the monoculture can be considered a step towards a solarpunk future though.

To have solarpunk, you must first get rid of capitalism. Solarpunk CAN NOT exist under capitalism. It is not compatible, your definition is all weird.

If you'd like a version of this quest where you deal with the nitty gritty of trying to negotiate with soulless corporations over how your supposed to place greater ecological restrictions on them without them just making that everyone else's problem through cost inflation and the like then go for it.
Yinz did choose military as the MC's background :p I was originally going to do soul crushing corporate negotiations, but fate has fallen where it shall.

I'm against Solarpunk as a genre being used as corporate propaganda.
The only corporate propaganda i can think of that uses solarpunk is that chobani commercial (which everyone agreed to photoshop chobani out of) so i think this continues to be a bit of confused definitions.

Like some corporations do green washing of how bad their practices are but that doesn't make it solarpunk.
 
@yeastmobile if you want to go play or watch a playtrough of Terra Nil and tell me if you consider it Solarpunk. Because I do and that is the type of Solarpunk I've been calling bad. It's best at this point to clarify the meaning of the term Solarpunk itself to each of us in order to keep this conversation going if you still want that. I suspect I might have a more expansive definition of the term than you do.
 
if you want to go play or watch a playtrough of Terra Nil and tell me if you consider it Solarpunk. Because I do and that is the type of Solarpunk I've been calling bad.
I know of the game, i have it ignored on steam because I simply do not like the type of gameplay it involves. I played a demo or free copy of it back in the day when it was on itch, and i remember it didn't involve Capitalist themes in its (very limited back then) lore. So yeah I guess it would fall into it as long as that stayed constant. But I'd be confused as to why you would call it bad because looking at its steam page now it seems to just be a simple game about restoring the ecology of an area?
 
Came for the numbers, stayed for the evocative writing. I couldn't tell you what emotions are being invoked in me right now, but all I can say is its made me hungry for more.

As someone from the Indian Subcontinent, I don't feel very positive about how things might have gone for the region considering what happened to SEA and Central Asia. I'm already dreading just how big the disaster will be. Will it be nuclear or is this the rare timeline where we don't get written off in nuclear hellfire?

I know the past decade or so haven't painted a very rosy trajectory, especially here in India, and I expect things will get worse before they get better but it tends to be quite demoralizing that even althistory can't envision anything positive ever happening to the region.

...Sorry about just dumping all that. Just that the writing is genuinely evocative and made me feel, both good and bad, about stuff and all that.
 
Will it be nuclear or is this the rare timeline where we don't get written off in nuclear hellfire?
No, i find nuclear war to both be boring for storytelling purposes, and unrealistic in that the majority of humanity will be adverse from being the person to pull that particular trigger.

And yeah, sorry about your region of the world. I will have some bright spots for you in the future, the region isn't entirely dead and "uninhabitable zones" aren't 100% 24/7/365 inaccessible to humanity, but yeah, the current trends the future seems to hold for the region don't look good and i'm not adverse from depicting them.

No worries about dumping, I won't police what people want to talk about in the thread even if its expressing climaate change anxiety. It keeps me thinking of the quest from various angles. In fact if it didn't feel like me simply cluttering the thread for bumps I would dump a lot of the news articles I find related to the climate crisis (and biotechnical research which I can't wait to get into for the quest).
 
I know of the game, i have it ignored on steam because I simply do not like the type of gameplay it involves. I played a demo or free copy of it back in the day when it was on itch, and i remember it didn't involve Capitalist themes in its (very limited back then) lore. So yeah I guess it would fall into it as long as that stayed constant. But I'd be confused as to why you would call it bad because looking at its steam page now it seems to just be a simple game about restoring the ecology of an area?

It's not simply a game about restoring the ecology of an area. There is this old anime I think from the early 2000s where a solution to climate change presented is in part to depopulate a continent and monoculture it so that people would still have food in the future and Terra Nil with its gameplay loop and lazy plant/animal design is reminding me of that sort of storytelling the most.

Terra Nil literally has you use multiple monocultures to "restore" an area and then pack up and leave for the next one until you reach the end of the game which involves building a rocket and leaving the planet alltogether. Which is bad on its own, but the game never has you build any sort of ecological backstops like sponges into the ecosystems you are restoring. See here:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geU1xBaxFGw

So yes it is capitalist in the thinking that went into designing the game.

Came for the numbers, stayed for the evocative writing. I couldn't tell you what emotions are being invoked in me right now, but all I can say is its made me hungry for more.

As someone from the Indian Subcontinent, I don't feel very positive about how things might have gone for the region considering what happened to SEA and Central Asia. I'm already dreading just how big the disaster will be. Will it be nuclear or is this the rare timeline where we don't get written off in nuclear hellfire?

I know the past decade or so haven't painted a very rosy trajectory, especially here in India, and I expect things will get worse before they get better but it tends to be quite demoralizing that even althistory can't envision anything positive ever happening to the region.

...Sorry about just dumping all that. Just that the writing is genuinely evocative and made me feel, both good and bad, about stuff and all that.

Well in the case of the Indian Subcontinent you have the problem of having someone like Gandhi who was a genuine good person and was shot dead by a member of a Hindu right wing militia and then posthumously accused of organizing a cult. That right there covers fully the problems the Indian Subcontinent has even today, but had even going back as far as the 19th century when a young Gandhi was excommunicated from his caste for going to London to study.

It is possible for positive things to happen in India and in the neighboring countries, but Modi and his ilk need to go, not just in India but in Bangladesh and Pakistan as well at the very least. The entire subcontinent is a shitshow caused by British colonial policies which encouraged the worst parts of local cultures as a means of control and when the British left they intentionally sabotaged the emerging local politics as a means of holding onto parts of their soft power in the region.
 
You know you should check where your argument comes from before posting it:

—Snip—

Your argument itself is also another favored enemy because you a leftist are being blithe about a question concerning politics instead of either ignoring it or actually taking the time to explain properly what the politics are.

I presume your focus on "favoured enemy" is referring to the ITTL Dems being explicit anti-anarchists; I, and the most of the left understands how anti-leftist state forces pick their targets. I do not see how me making an off-hand meme comment intended to be humorous, is an example of such. I did later explain my position.

The Democrats are also mercenary with their political positions in the last half-a-century at least with their political actions being responsible for expanded voting rights and better healthcare for all Americans.

They're not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts most of the time, but they are doing good all the same tepid though you may consider it.
Both of which aren't inherently left-wing positions. Expanded voting rights allows the Dems to get more votes and stay in power, like any political party wishes. And better healthcare is a popular stance and Dems are doing populism for votes, because that's how politics work.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Could you elaborate?
The slow breakdown of society, and the dread of not being able to do anything about it.
 
Rule 4: Don’t Be Disruptive - Stay on topic for the thread
I presume your focus on "favoured enemy" is referring to the ITTL Dems being explicit anti-anarchists; I, and the most of the left understands how anti-leftist state forces pick their targets. I do not see how me making an off-hand meme comment intended to be humorous, is an example of such. I did later explain my position.

No my focus on the concept of a favored enemy is referring to the current bad habit of leftists of all sorts posting memes and/or mocking people asking questions about basic left politics stuff being elevated in public conversations as enemies of the state because they are preferred by the system as an enemy to leftists that will stop and explain what the left is about politically.

This post of yours:

Firstly; They have been right wing since the party's formation, which was formed by Martin Van Buren to be a vehicle to elect Andrew Jackson. When formed the party supported expansive presidential power, the interests of slave states, agrarianism,
and geographical expansionism, while opposing a national bank and high tariffs. Additionally, they've supported liberalism and capitalism throughout it's political evolution, and currently it's ideology is
liberalism/neoliberalism. All of these policies are right-wing positions. Arguing otherwise would be politically and historically illiterate.
Secondly; "Self-admitted anarchist", like I'm admitting to murder or something lmao. The person who is running the quest is an anarchist as well, so if that's an issue take a hike mike.

is ahistorical. In the 1810s and 1820s when the Democratic Party first formed they were definitively a Right Wing party, but at least since the 1930s and the New Deal they've been on trending to the Left more and more with each decade.

As for arguing that Liberalism was not a Right Wing position being politically and historically illiterate? That is just outright factually wrong. When the Left-Right Political Spectrum emerged as a concept in the French Revolution of 1789 the division was between outright Absolute Monarchy on the Right and the various Revolutionary Movements on the Left.

The original Far Left in that context of 250 years ago was Liberalism not Communism or Anarchism which while having philosophical roots in that French Revolution did not form as coherent political movements until the latter half of the 19th century. Your argument outright ignores close to a century of political though and developments that was needed for Anarchism as a political movement to exist.

Do you honestly think that Anarchism will not be looked upon the same way Liberalism is right now a century Edit: or two from now?

Also what the fuck does ITTL stand for in this context?

Both of which aren't inherently left-wing positions. Expanded voting rights allows the Dems to get more votes and stay in power, like any political party wishes. And better healthcare is a popular stance and Dems are doing populism for votes, because that's how politics work.

The cynicism of this argument is utterly naive. When the Affordable Care Act was voted on back in 2010 Democrat Politicians in Swing Districts expected to lose their positions because they voted for it. They did it anyways and lost power for it in the 2012 elections.

Better healthcare has only been a political gain since 2016 when Sanders in part ran his Presidential bid on it.

As for voting rights? When they were originally expanded in the 1960s LBJ fully expected for Democrats to lose power because they had passed multiple laws expanding them and even got an Amendment passed that improved them.

The slow breakdown of society, and the dread of not being able to do anything about it.

But it's the Right Wing of society that is breaking down and hard right now while the Left Wing is having a global resurgence not seen since the 1960s. Why do you think there is nothing you are able to do to unfuck society?
 
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