Not five minutes ago Buffy, acting as a role model, talked about how she spent a great deal of time going around her nominal authority figure's rules in order to fight demons. This feels pretty relevant to the current matter of authority figures allowing or disallowing Zoe to learn magic in order to fight demons - especially since Mary's argument is heavily based on "being half a mother" to Zoe for years.
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Successor (BTVS)
- Thread starter DeAnno
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- Mature
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- United States
The specific spell it sounds like Zoe is interested in seems like a really bad idea given what we know of magic.
That sounds like it's likely an invocation. It's called a "Channel," references a specific demon or god Scathach, and is described as having a fairly low cost.
We explicitly know in that case that what Andrew and Zoe are saying isn't true- where it comes from does actually make the spell extremely dangerous, regardless of what you do with it, because even if the cost on paper isn't high the reason the cost isn't high is because the patron is supplying most of the energy, and the patron is happy to do so because it rapidly aligns the spellcaster and the patron.
[X] Buffy doesn't like it, but doesn't want to make a giant stink with the Watchers' Council either, not after things have been going so well. Zoe will be old enough to make her own decisions in less than a year.
That sounds like it's likely an invocation. It's called a "Channel," references a specific demon or god Scathach, and is described as having a fairly low cost.
We explicitly know in that case that what Andrew and Zoe are saying isn't true- where it comes from does actually make the spell extremely dangerous, regardless of what you do with it, because even if the cost on paper isn't high the reason the cost isn't high is because the patron is supplying most of the energy, and the patron is happy to do so because it rapidly aligns the spellcaster and the patron.
[X] Buffy doesn't like it, but doesn't want to make a giant stink with the Watchers' Council either, not after things have been going so well. Zoe will be old enough to make her own decisions in less than a year.
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- Pronouns
- She/Her
I'm never 100% confident on when a write-in is allowed or not, so I'll at least put one forward and take it down if it's not an option this time.
[] Buffy is trying to be more willing to compromise with people she doesn't like or agree with. Zoe can study whatever magic books she likes, but she has to agree to only practice with supervision from Giles or Mary (or both) and any unsupervised/unauthorised spellcasting will see her access cut off. She also has to maintain her regular training with Mary -- this is meant to be supplemental, not replacing her basic training.
I honestly don't really care if Mary likes it or not, but she should be able to accept a compromise where she gets to maintain some semblance of authority on the matter, and if Zoe screws up, then Mary can be at least contented that we'll be the bad guy who cuts her off in that scenario, not Mary.
[] Buffy is trying to be more willing to compromise with people she doesn't like or agree with. Zoe can study whatever magic books she likes, but she has to agree to only practice with supervision from Giles or Mary (or both) and any unsupervised/unauthorised spellcasting will see her access cut off. She also has to maintain her regular training with Mary -- this is meant to be supplemental, not replacing her basic training.
I honestly don't really care if Mary likes it or not, but she should be able to accept a compromise where she gets to maintain some semblance of authority on the matter, and if Zoe screws up, then Mary can be at least contented that we'll be the bad guy who cuts her off in that scenario, not Mary.
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hmm. I'm a little torn on this. I would like to encourge Zoe to follow her passionnad do so in a safe and constructive enviroment but I also don't think this is in any way worth having a big fight with Mary about.
- Location
- Vancouver
Well, this was a fun update. Faith got a bit of banter back in after the last time, but is still generally forced to go along with what we're doing. Also, the 'my slayer can beat your slayer' part between Forrest and Harmony was just great.
As for the vote... I want to give Zoe something nice. There's other reasons, like sticking it to Mary, who's generally kinda been annoying ever since we got here and really doesn't seem to get it that we're the one's in charge, and it could help give us another magic user, but generally it's so that she can do what she wants. Rachel has her groove and can already do good with that, but Zoe needs her own path. I'm happy to open that up to her.
[X] Buffy attempts to override Mary's decision and declares that Zoe can read whatever magic books she likes. The Watcher's Council does have custody, but Zoe is 17, and Buffy can make their lives very difficult if they don't back down.
As for the vote... I want to give Zoe something nice. There's other reasons, like sticking it to Mary, who's generally kinda been annoying ever since we got here and really doesn't seem to get it that we're the one's in charge, and it could help give us another magic user, but generally it's so that she can do what she wants. Rachel has her groove and can already do good with that, but Zoe needs her own path. I'm happy to open that up to her.
[X] Buffy attempts to override Mary's decision and declares that Zoe can read whatever magic books she likes. The Watcher's Council does have custody, but Zoe is 17, and Buffy can make their lives very difficult if they don't back down.
- Location
- United States
I don't really think refusing to overrule Mary here goes against that? Mary's problem here seems to be more with the environment than with her learning magic period. Mary's attitude is probably more restrictive than ideal maybe much more restrictive, and she does seem to be negatively judging Andrew and Jonathan unduly, but it didn't read to me as "no magic ever period" although it might have been "no magic ever period out of a dark magic tome on top of the hellmouth with Andrew supervising." Zoe is also a minor and her first instinct in terms of exploring magic seems to be a pretty bad one.
@DeAnno is "invocation" as a different category of spells something that's well-understood by spellcasters and Watchers in universe, or is it a distinction that's known and understood OOC with only more of a general sense existing in-universe?
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Another thing to note here is how much Buffy was annoying Rachel during the training, I'm assuming that's fallout from the decision wrt Faith.
I do think it goes against Zoe learning magic in any sort of relevant time frame. She would have to wait for 18 then spend years learning at the Devon Coven. She would come out another Nigel, and that certainly isn't a bad thing, but it does sort of kill her chances at moving up into being an important character in the quest.
- Location
- Vancouver
This is very true. We're already seeing the results of training young in the Hellmouth. Starting her now, with the collection of magic books/users we've gathered is going to give her a huge boost to her ability.
- Location
- Germany
[X] Buffy attempts to override Mary's decision and declares that Zoe can read whatever magic books she likes. The Watcher's Council does have custody, but Zoe is 17, and Buffy can make their lives very difficult if they don't back down.
DeAnno
Sometimes words have two meanings
The issue is that especially in this conversation, she really is not. Available compromises here look more like going around behind Mary's back or various levels of benign neglect.
The following is known IC about Invocations:
Between Zoe and Mary you can also find this much out if looking for quick clarifications:
A Scáthach Channel is an invocation, though ironically not one to the Scáthach being discussed by Snow, who was a powerful evil spellcaster known to be active in the Americas during the 16th century. The spell in question is actually invoking a different Scáthach, the minor Irish deity of the same name. Why the two of them share the same name is not well understood but the Irish one came first and isn't known to be especially terrible as minor deities go.
When cast the spell is supposed to give some sort of temporary personal combat buff related to one's deceased ancestors; it can only be cast on oneself. Scáthach-the-second apparently liked getting up close and personal and mixing it up.
EDIT: To clarify, Scáthach-the-second often cast Scáthach Channels invoking Scáthach-the-minor-deity.
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[X] Buffy doesn't like it, but doesn't want to make a giant stink with the Watchers' Council either, not after things have been going so well. Zoe will be old enough to make her own decisions in less than a year
it's not like we don't have magic users already. And if Zoe means it, she can be here in less than a year anyway. And honestly, we could send Andrew back with them. It'd be good to have an informant who is more loyal to us on the other side of the pond.
it's not like we don't have magic users already. And if Zoe means it, she can be here in less than a year anyway. And honestly, we could send Andrew back with them. It'd be good to have an informant who is more loyal to us on the other side of the pond.
- Location
- United States
That's true. My point was about whether or not this is stopping her from exploring an interest in a safe and constructive environment as a moral issue, separate from her effectiveness and power as a minion in this quest.
Honestly, I don't really see a good reason to push for Zoe being an important character in this quest in and of itself from a narrative perspective? I did not remember her as a separate character before this update. This quest already has a fair number of characters, including a number of "minor" magic users (where "minor" means "not Willow" although Travers has said that Jonathan would be considered a prodigy, and Andrew and Tara both seemed about on his level in the show). I'd prefer to see more screentime go to Rachel for the "potential Slayer" aspects of the character or Tara, Andrew, or Jonathan for the "non-Willow magic user aspects."
This though sort of resolves my concern about it being an invocation and also makes Mary seem substantially worse and more unreasonable, since she's being pretty misleading if she was actually talking about someone else who merely used the spell, rather than the source. "Personal combat buff caster" would be a different niche than Tara, Andrew, or Jonathan, at least. So I can get behind this from the aspect of in-universe building our power by cultivating another magic user.
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[ ] Buffy doesn't like it, but doesn't want to make a giant stink with the Watchers' Council either, not after things have been going so well. Zoe will be old enough to make her own decisions in less than a year
Yeah generally I'm on the side that this is a temporary issue and not worth breaking with the council over. On the other hand I'm pretty sure this is a Mary problem rather then a council problem. I can see Travers actually taking our side here if we play our cards right.
[X] Buffy attempts to override Mary's decision and declares that Zoe can read whatever magic books she likes. The Watcher's Council does have custody, but Zoe is 17, and Buffy can make their lives very difficult if they don't back down.
Yeah generally I'm on the side that this is a temporary issue and not worth breaking with the council over. On the other hand I'm pretty sure this is a Mary problem rather then a council problem. I can see Travers actually taking our side here if we play our cards right.
[X] Buffy attempts to override Mary's decision and declares that Zoe can read whatever magic books she likes. The Watcher's Council does have custody, but Zoe is 17, and Buffy can make their lives very difficult if they don't back down.
Yeah that is a very fair point. I am much less interested in Zoe than I am in Rachel. We don't actually have that many characters that are really leaning into martial excellence rather than collective fire and weight of numbers or magic. Harmony sort of fits the bill, but she is leaning more into 'rapidly growing stronger vampire' rather than incredibly talented at combat. Having a sort of apprentice could be really fun.
- Location
- Internet
[X] Buffy attempts to override Mary's decision and declares that Zoe can read whatever magic books she likes. The Watcher's Council does have custody, but Zoe is 17, and Buffy can make their lives very difficult if they don't back down.
[X] Buffy attempts to override Mary's decision and declares that Zoe can read whatever magic books she likes. The Watcher's Council does have custody, but Zoe is 17, and Buffy can make their lives very difficult if they don't back down.
- Location
- United States
[X] Buffy doesn't like it, but doesn't want to make a giant stink with the Watchers' Council either, not after things have been going so well. Zoe will be old enough to make her own decisions in less than a year.
Edifier
Trusted within thoughts.
- Location
- Court of Moon Wizards
[x] Buffy attempts to override Mary's decision and declares that Zoe can read whatever magic books she likes. The Watcher's Council does have custody, but Zoe is 17, and Buffy can make their lives very difficult if they don't back down.
Scáthach as a practitioners goddess, sounds like that makes for a discount slayer.
Scáthach as a practitioners goddess, sounds like that makes for a discount slayer.
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Tough choice...
[x] Buffy attempts to override Mary's decision and declares that Zoe can read whatever magic books she likes. The Watcher's Council does have custody, but Zoe is 17, and Buffy can make their lives very difficult if they don't back down.
[x] Buffy attempts to override Mary's decision and declares that Zoe can read whatever magic books she likes. The Watcher's Council does have custody, but Zoe is 17, and Buffy can make their lives very difficult if they don't back down.
[X] Buffy doesn't like it, but doesn't want to make a giant stink with the Watchers' Council either, not after things have been going so well. Zoe will be old enough to make her own decisions in less than a year.
If it was Rachel wanting to open evil fighting books I'd be a lot more interested. Sorry Zoe.
If it was Rachel wanting to open evil fighting books I'd be a lot more interested. Sorry Zoe.
- Location
- Germany
If any magic is likely to make you more fighty it would be Scathach's.
It isn't so much the magic specifically it is that I filed Zoe under 'Willow stuff' awhile ago and I'm not interested in spiking council relations over her. However, if Rachel found something sinister that would help her I'd probably be far more interested.
Edifier
Trusted within thoughts.
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- Court of Moon Wizards
I want to social Cyber-Willow more. But I'm drawing blanks on how.
On a completely unrelated note.... Isn't it strange how the people who give the best kind of advice are evil? At least in this quest.... soo, if Cyber-Willow has been giving good advice to the chaos mage... how evil does that make her?
On a completely unrelated note.... Isn't it strange how the people who give the best kind of advice are evil? At least in this quest.... soo, if Cyber-Willow has been giving good advice to the chaos mage... how evil does that make her?
- Location
- DC area
[X] Buffy doesn't like it, but doesn't want to make a giant stink with the Watchers' Council either, not after things have been going so well. Zoe will be old enough to make her own decisions in less than a year.