Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
"Let's blame the Maine on Spain!"
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"Let's blame the Maine on Spain!"
I feel like we have gotten a decent spread of variety in both final look and project types but I'll also keep suggesting some oddball stuff just to see if we get them as options on future designs. One day we'll have a defiant with a phaser lance. We might be able to get some more cetacean ops when we do our next massive explorer or diplo ship.
Larger in hull volume, but IIRC it fit that hull volume into a smaller overall package (the Miranda is, based on some quick digging, roughly 11 meters shorter, 50 meters wider, and ~8 meters shorter, assuming we're taking the apocryphal sizes for both at their word), so mass probably comes up as a wash.
- Location
- America
I can give you New Brasilia and Klingons take it or leave it.
Also I think designing a ship for the Andorian Imperial Guard would be really fun. Or for the vulcans.
@thepsyborg
Per STvSW's volumetrics page (since it's the only source I'm aware of to go through every Star Trek ship prior to 2004) the Constitution-refit (Constitution B here) has a volume of 234,928 m3 and the Miranda has 217,770 m3
Then we might not have the economic benefits. I honestly felt we didn't go far enough with the Pharos, didn't we cheap out and didn't give it the ability to do full refits? Would've been very, very valuable right about now, and as the switch to v4 nacelles and warp
If it was made in such vast numbers, maybe it was because it was a hugely successful design?
Also, I really honestly don't want to sound annoying, but we have 22 Cygnus-class ships (a pre-Federation design!), 22 Selachii-class frigates, (a 22nd century design) and we're still rocking the Sagarmatha-class which has been brought out of partial decommission what, twice?
Seriously, we need a modern engineering/transport/patrol cruiser with decent armaments and full warp 8 to phase out the Cygnus and Selachii, and a similar albeit bigger science/explorer ship to phase out the Sagarmatha-class. Check out our roster under "Informational > Starfleet: Four Years War". The Newton-class is already semi-obsolete with a warp 7 drive, we would've been far more likely to be able to assemble a viable defense against the Klingons if we had more warp 8 ships.
I reckon with the Sagarmatha replacement, we could do worse than build a great huge explorer ship packed to the gills with extra range, decent firepower and a glut of research labs.
Horologer
Incertae sedis
- Location
- a risen sea
I'd actually say the Newton's done really well. It's taken a lot of losses because it's been forced into a role that's it's not very good at, which is to be a bulwark of the front line, and it's been fighting on grossly unequal terms. Seriously, two dozen Birds of Prey with nine D7s is just... oof.
I also don't think that the Klingons will be able to take Andoria, but the question right now is whether a bloodied and demoralized Federation even after decapitating the Klingon Empire at Andoria still has the will and the ships to trudge through the anti-matter denuded and likely Bird of Prey infested frontiers to get back some colonies of questionable economic value. Even if the Klingons lack a central authority we know from previous battles that any single house still has enough of a fleet to contend with any single Federation task force, so getting those colonies back will not come cheaply.
Honestly, it may actually be better not to kill the Chancellor at Andoria, because that at least means there will be a singular authority to negotiate a return to a status quo ante bellum with, if the Houses are split up they are more likely to defend their gains vigorously to not look weak to their competitors.
- Location
- England
We know that there's going to be a Federation counterattack in early 2244, which will also include the initial deployment of the six second tranche Excaliburs. While that doesn't tell us a lot about the exact strategic situation, it does narrow down the possibility space by confirming that the Federation will be on the offensive at that time: We won't have negotiated a peace treaty after the Battle of Andoria, which is set for 2242, and we will be trying to retake territory (probably not take, since I heavily doubt the Federation will be launching invasions into Klingon space based on how the war's been going so far.)
We will, and we must.
The Federation is a union of equals, united in favour of democracy, free trade and common interest. Already they occupy a member planet, and have killed potentially millions.
For the Federation to survive we can do no less than take everything back.
I've run the math on this a few times now, its overall far too expensive to work. Its better overall to just build more ships, the saving of not having warp isn't enough to offset the military cost (Phasors, Torps, Shields, Etc) I'd love to do it cause its awesome. Just not a good enough Cost Benefit Analysis to go with. Also they use lots of ECM and E-War in trek. How do you think any kind of physical projectile lands hits with Lightspeed weapons (Phasors/Disruptors) existing.
And more on topic. The standard SF ships are rather boring IMO, I was hoping the thread would do more than that (Lots of other races to take inspiration/designs from). And before people go off on me, I find Halo guns with engines bolted on boring as well (Covenant Ships are better). Trek as a whole has some amazing designs that are not just plates with gribles, that's what I was hoping to see more of.
That's fair, yeah.
Looking at how the Newton's done, and considering the Darwin might end up de-facto serving the same role in any future war, I think I'm a lot happier with the two standard torpedoes versus the RFL on the current vote. If it's still going, anyway. In a fleet, two standards is still plenty versus a Bird of Prey, the rear standards mitigate one of the established vulnerabilities of the Newton, and since the D6s aren't that agile as I understand it, a Darwin might well be able to land a double-salvo of both the forwards and rear tubes in a fight.
Would save a chunk of cost on the design.
The Federation wouldn't be the first democracy to have to accept a loss of territory, and it certainly wouldn't lead to its destruction. Maybe a lot of revanchism and a desire to have another swing at the Klingons later, once the Federation has readied itself for a war.
I largely agree about the economic benefits. However I disagree about going further with the Pharos.
I cannot imagine a situation where its economically viable or strategically desirable to do refits outside of our core shipyards; thats a level of work that requires a full shipyard complex to perform, with all the supporting infrastructure and skilled workforce that entails.
Yes actually.
Its not just about the territories, its also about the people; I do not see the Federation leaving Federation citizens under Klingon occupation. There's also the point that leaving them in Klingon hands will leave impressions of weakness in the eyes of the Tholians and Romulans and others, which is going to induce them to try their luck.
And from a cold strategic viewpoint, quite aside from any future value as they mature, those colonies have been valuable ablative armor for the core worlds, allowing defense in depth. Give them up, and you are allowing the Klingons staging grounds closer to core Federation space. Which is a hard no-no.
So no, while I dont expect the Federation to be interested in counter-invading Klingon space, I do believe recovering the colonies is a strategic imperative.
KlavoHunter
THOU SHALT WORSHIP NO GODS ABOVE ENTERPRISE!
We didn't have the numbers to hold what we had, we still won't have the numbers to take everything back imo even with six fresh Excalibur hulls.
Edit:
The more likely method of getting our lost territory back is through the Diplomatic Corps.
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Not with the Federation Starfleet, but I know that we can count on the rest of the old four at least to aid us in the Great Crusade, toward which we will have striven for many years, against the Klingon Incursion.
ZeldaFan
Thinker of Ideas
- Location
- Florida-Land of Madness and Sunshine
Omake
Starfleet Headquarters
Year 2 of the 4 Year War
Starfleet Headquarters
Year 2 of the 4 Year War
The new Head of Starfleet looked out at the constellation of the ongoing conflict, and the icons indicating the relentless advance of the Klingons.
"So our ongoing projections are on the mark unfortunately."
The loss of the Pharos stations, of the outer worlds hurt, in ways worse then even the lows of the Romulan War. Their mind weighed heavily with the loss of so many starship and their crews in an attempt to stop yet another Empire. Many people of whom they had personally known, or mentored at Starfleet Academy. A memory of better days most bitter indeed.
A person who looked oddly unremarkable spoke up.
"Intelligence is now expecting a concentrated attack on one of the founding worlds. Vulcan, Andoria or potentally Earth itself."
The Head of Starfleet nodded, able to suppress the urge to curse with long experience.
"Well, we have made them bleed. However the war will ultimately come down to the answer to my question."
He turned to the head of Starfleets Starship Shipyard Bureau.
"Admiral, how many Excaliburs will be repaired and ready for combat by the end of the next quarter?"
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Im not.
Now that the D6 is lastgen tech?
The pacing threat is the D7, and the Darwin is going to operate into the lifespan of the successor to the current BoP. The Klingons certainly arent going to be standing still.
2x standard torpedoes are very much not enough for that threat scenario.
I'd much rather have the 1x RFL fore, 2x standard aft combo.
Then we build more. Our industrial core remains untouched, and we have the population and economy.
This is like foundational Federation philosophy here. We wont have less solicitude for our own citizens under occupation than we would for random species and alien civilians at risk.
If they have a big victory, morale would improve. But really as noted, nations in defensive wars, especially democracies tend to be surprisingly stubborn in things like this. It would be more unusual if they didn't. You only get them to give up if they don't think they can realistically win really.
Excessively painful defensive wars where the invader is eventually pushed out, even if it costs a lot is very normal really. In a way its a kind of a calculated move as well, as in... if you make it really painful to achieve anything at all, then people will hesitate to try again.
- Location
- being near locations is my passion.
"If you don't have cetacean ops, that's an engineering error."
Ancient Federation Ship-Design Proverb
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Then we're going to need more Temporal intervention since the six we're getting next year are it as far as the retrospective went.
The thing to keep in mind, those retrospectives are only valuable when they're published. Future events will change them, like we've seen with Tarsus IV.
From arriving at the tail end of a massacre to probably preventing it outright.
There is nothing preventing Starfleet from ordering more Excaliburs.
Keep in mind the Darwin has much better phasers than the Newton.
Unless we're trying to make a light cruiser that can take on a Klingon battleship, it doesn't need to measure up against D7s; I've been using D6s because, since the Klingons are even less able to throw obsolete ships away than Starfleet is, I expect the D6s to continue to be threats into the future. But they're, clearly, not going to have the same numbers as Birds of Prey - which the Newtons can kill just fine with two tubes. I expect, with better phasers, better agility, and better shields, the Darwin will also be able to handle the next-generation BoP as well as the Newton does the current generation. Better with the rear tubes.
... It does mean we want a line cruiser around for the Darwin to hide behind in fleet combat, though. I'm not willing to bet on Refit Keas and Excaliburs alone for that.
I agree. I think there's a niche for bigger, non-frontline designs having 4x single forward photorps instead of the highly expensive RFLs to keep costs down, but yeah, for anything that's not doing exclusive logistic support like the Archer-class, being able to put 3 torps forward and 2 aft really is the new minimum.
Can't wait for type 2 torpedo launchers, and/or for type 1 RFLs to become a mature technology. And type 2 shields, yummy.