Starfleet Design Bureau

That suggests that as long as the ship masses less than 180kt it shouldn't be competing with the Excalibur's for yard space.
Yes. But unless Starfleet just happens to have a large cluster of its yards just under the 180kt mark, every 10kt we can shave off the ship noticeably increases the number of yards that can build it.

Personally, that I want to go single-thruster means I'd like to go significantly under 180kt; I don't want max agility (which would need to be 90kt) but at 120kt a single Type 3 gives us about the same agility as the Newton had.

The Newton had a B tactical rating and nothing I can find indicating any problems with its agility, so I don't see a need to exceed that the way I do for shields and firepower.

(I'd be quite satisfied if the new ship has a B for tactical. But that's going to require exceeding the Newton, not matching it across the board, because the Tactical rating requirements increase over time.)
 
This is a quite specialized ship, and Starfleet will be building lots of other ships concurrently with it. I would be very surprised if this forms the bulk of our Warp 8 fleet at any point. Maybe if we go all-in on generalist capabilities and keep costs very low, but Regular Covariant is not keeping costs low.

If this ship is in area where hostilities are at risk of breaking out, I would assume that Starfleet would have a front-line vessel patrolling the area as well.
Right now the only other people who could make a warp 8 design are busy with defence satellites, assuming they finish two years before the war (2238) it'll take them until 2247 to make a warp 8 design that can be fielded, if they finish when we do (based on the 9 years of the Archer and the fact we worked together with SanFran to knock the Excalibur out early) in 2244 their first warp 8 design will be out by 2253.

Assuming a 9 year design/build frame we're going to get our first Darwin online in 2244.

Unless Sayle has some new design bureau burst onto the scene with a warp 8 mob frigate just before the war starts/early on into it we're going to be alone for between 3 and 9 years with the Darwin.

The Federation has a solid core circle of some 150ly, and who knows how many weird branches that greatly expand its overall area, we cannot assume that there will be frontline vessels patrolling, at least in a way that would allow a quick response to the Darwin's distress signals, especially when much of Trek from TOS to TNG emphasises that the Enterprise is the only ship in range, be it fairly close in (TMP) or along the borders (where they're often responding to the distress call of a now dead ship).
 
Worth remembering:
The Type-1 has finally been displaced by the new covariant emitter design, though the fundamental principles of the graviton shell remain fundamentally the same. Through plenty of testing on the laboratory and industrial level it has justified a full depreciation of its predecessor and you are now mandated to fit the now-standardised technology on all future designs. The new light shield grid is capable of matching the old standard model and seems the obvious choice for keeping costs down for the Darwin. On the other hand the standard emitter density would match even the heavy grid aboard the new Excalibur-class in terms of base output, which is not a defensive ability to be sneered at. Ultimately it is a question as to which is more important: cost or capability.

Starfleet hasn't given you any budgetary red lines on this project, although obviously the cheaper the better, and the shield does constitute a significant entry on the balance sheet.
We dont want to be unnecessarily profligate, of course.
But its explicitly noted that we have no budgetary red lines on this project.
Size, industrial shipbuilding capacity and ship capability are stronger arguments here.
 
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Right now the only other people who could make a warp 8 design are busy with defence satellites,
Defense satellites and the Kea refit. Alas, since the Rapid Launcher is still a prototype, it's probably not being used in the Kea refit.

But its explicitly noted that we have no budgetary red lines on this project.
Yeah. That's why I'm reading "small" as meaning "we can build this in yards that aren't needed for building Excaliburs."
 
Yes. But unless Starfleet just happens to have a large cluster of its yards just under the 180kt mark, every 10kt we can shave off the ship noticeably increases the number of yards that can build it.

Personally, that I want to go single-thruster means I'd like to go significantly under 180kt; I don't want max agility (which would need to be 90kt) but at 120kt a single Type 3 gives us about the same agility as the Newton had.

The Newton had a B tactical rating and nothing I can find indicating any problems with its agility, so I don't see a need to exceed that the way I do for shields and firepower.

(I'd be quite satisfied if the new ship has a B for tactical. But that's going to require exceeding the Newton, not matching it across the board, because the Tactical rating requirements increase over time.)
This isn't a ship that's expected to be pumped out in great numbers like the Newton or Archer, it isn't even intended to be a full on Kea replacement since it's only really supposed to help cover for the Kea's lacking Bioscience capabilities.
The second is a science vessel that can take thorough surveys of habitable worlds. While the Kea has plenty of facilities for general cartography and geological sciences, the biological side of that has been somewhat neglected. Several colonies have had to deal with novel pathogens or had to implement crude solutions to the activities of local flora and fauna that could have been prepared for more efficiently given forewarning. Cataloguing an entire biosphere is no small task, and a ship dedicated to that could go a long way towards making safe colonies before the first boot touches soil. Such a vessel would ideally be small and well-specialised.
My guess is that we might only make as many of these things as we have Kea's or Excalibur's for that reason.

I'd rather we make a smaller amount of highly capable Bioscience ships similar to the paradigm we had with the Kea rather than pump out a bunch of less capable ships like the Saladin's.

If secondary capabilities are something that we want than Light Covariant's on a bigger hull makes more sense since as I pointed out earlier they are decently cheaper than the Standards even on bigger ships and that increase in size results in outright superior durability for cost.
 
Pretty sure 100kt to 150kt is where this ship will end up. Looking at the chart Sayle provided us the difference in price is small enough for me to not worry so much.
 
Right now the only other people who could make a warp 8 design are busy with defence satellites, assuming they finish two years before the war (2238) it'll take them until 2247 to make a warp 8 design that can be fielded, if they finish when we do (based on the 9 years of the Archer and the fact we worked together with SanFran to knock the Excalibur out early) in 2244 their first warp 8 design will be out by 2253.

Assuming a 9 year design/build frame we're going to get our first Darwin online in 2244.

Unless Sayle has some new design bureau burst onto the scene with a warp 8 mob frigate just before the war starts/early on into it we're going to be alone for between 3 and 9 years with the Darwin.

The Federation has a solid core circle of some 150ly, and who knows how many weird branches that greatly expand its overall area, we cannot assume that there will be frontline vessels patrolling, at least in a way that would allow a quick response to the Darwin's distress signals, especially when much of Trek from TOS to TNG emphasises that the Enterprise is the only ship in range, be it fairly close in (TMP) or along the borders (where they're often responding to the distress call of a now dead ship).
Again, a lot of shipbuilding capacity is going to be absorbed by the Excaliburs, older ships, and probably other stuff that falls below the level of abstraction for this quest. We should not assume that the Darwin is going to be occupying the bulk of our capacity, and I think it's unreasonable to assume that it is. It is specifically called out as a small, specialized ship.

If we want to cover first-response capabilities we should build a cheap generalist light cruiser next, not try to cover all our bases with a ship designed to fill a specific niche.
 
If we want to cover first-response capabilities we should build a cheap generalist light cruiser next, not try to cover all our bases with a ship designed to fill a specific niche.
It takes multiple years to design a starship.

By the time that generalist cruiser is designed and the first one built, the Four-Year-War will be over. (Not saying we won't want or need such a ship after the 4YW...)

Therefore if we want another design that affects the 4YW, it has to be this one.
 
Again, a lot of shipbuilding capacity is going to be absorbed by the Excaliburs, older ships, and probably other stuff that falls below the level of abstraction for this quest. We should not assume that the Darwin is going to be occupying the bulk of our capacity, and I think it's unreasonable to assume that it is. It is specifically called out as a small, specialized ship.

If we want to cover first-response capabilities we should build a cheap generalist light cruiser next, not try to cover all our bases with a ship designed to fill a specific niche.

We aren't trying to stretch this into a generalist crusier pal. I just don't think we should skimp on defense and that all starfleet ships should have decent tactical capabilities. Both the Archer and Kea were criticized for their weapons load out and I don't want to end up in the same position.

Remember in canon it took the Borg and Dominion to make starfleet design dedicated warships, because our normal ships were already well armed and defended to handle everything in the local area. Let's keep to that tradition.
 
Again, a lot of shipbuilding capacity is going to be absorbed by the Excaliburs, older ships, and probably other stuff that falls below the level of abstraction for this quest. We should not assume that the Darwin is going to be occupying the bulk of our capacity, and I think it's unreasonable to assume that it is. It is specifically called out as a small, specialized ship.

If we want to cover first-response capabilities we should build a cheap generalist light cruiser next, not try to cover all our bases with a ship designed to fill a specific niche.
Shipbuilding capacity above a certain volume/displacement, which this ship, if we keep it at somewhere between 120,000 and 90,000 tonnes shouldn't occupy (obviously there are some lighter ships that would, but below a certain tonnage most non-major repair wok can probably be carried out by member yards). Small is relative, and assuming we manage to keep this below 130,000 tonnes the former Newton yards would probably be earmarked for this ship.

I'm not talking about a generalist who can respond to anything, I'm talking about a scientist with some Level IIIA plates and a decent PDW (some sort of carbine in this context, I guess) so if they don't die if they can't run (and there will be times when they can't) and can help out a bit in a firefight.
 
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they don't die if they can't run (and there will be times when they can't)
Yeah. We're going to be using this ship to go check out planets we'd like to plant flags on, so we know about any problems before we plop a colony down.

The people who don't want the Federation planting flags there are certainly going to shoot at the ship that needs to go first for the Federation to plant its flags.
 
Again, a lot of shipbuilding capacity is going to be absorbed by the Excaliburs, older ships, and probably other stuff that falls below the level of abstraction for this quest. We should not assume that the Darwin is going to be occupying the bulk of our capacity, and I think it's unreasonable to assume that it is. It is specifically called out as a small, specialized ship.
1)We are told that Starfleet stops building non-combat ships once the war breaks out.
This is only our 2nd Warp 8 design. I dont think its unreasonable to suspect that its going to be pressed into some sort of combat service in a war where we lost 75% of the 4-ship Radiant-class, and where even the Archers got savaged.

2)You are mistaken.
This is the only use of small or specialized I can find in the last two updates, and it was specifically qualified:
The Lull said:
The second is a science vessel that can take thorough surveys of habitable worlds. While the Kea has plenty of facilities for general cartography and geological sciences, the biological side of that has been somewhat neglected. Several colonies have had to deal with novel pathogens or had to implement crude solutions to the activities of local flora and fauna that could have been prepared for more efficiently given forewarning. Cataloguing an entire biosphere is no small task, and a ship dedicated to that could go a long way towards making safe colonies before the first boot touches soil. Such a vessel would ideally be small and well-specialised.
Note the use of ideally as a qualifier, noting that Starfleet is well aware that may not be possible.

We are probably going to want to keep it at less than 80% of an Excalibur's mass, but even so the CONOPS so far appears to be somewhat more permissive in mass-volume and role than it might first appear.
If we want to cover first-response capabilities we should build a cheap generalist light cruiser next, not try to cover all our bases with a ship designed to fill a specific niche.
We have a limited number of ship design and prototype teams, and ship design takes time.
Even if for some reason we thought a cheap (for given definitions of cheap) generalist light cruiser was an additional project to pursue right now, we probably dont have the time and resource budget to devote to it.

Furthermore the Federation's fleet-sustainment capability is limited; it can sustain only so many additional warships, and only so many crews of the quality to staff those ships within its operating budget.
Multi-role capability is more or less one of those unspoken assumptions in Starfleet doctrine as far as I can tell.

And its worth remembering that the canon Federation threw Oberths into combat against the Borg.
Everything is a first-responder in the Starfleet paradigm, as long as its fast or close enough.
 
I'm not talking about a generalist who can respond to anything, I'm talking about a scientist with some Level IIIA plates and a decent PDW (some sort of carbine in this context, I guess) so if they don't die if they can't run (and there will be times when they can't) and can help out a bit in a firefight.

I wouldn't mind giving that scientist an underslung grenade launcher (RFL) either.

The place to save cost on this ship is hull mass, engines, and phaser armament. Torpedoes and shields is where I want our totally not money to go.
 
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Yeah. We're going to be using this ship to go check out planets we'd like to plant flags on, so we know about any problems before we plop a colony down.

The people who don't want the Federation planting flags there are certainly going to shoot at the ship that needs to go first for the Federation to plant its flags.
Rather likely to be an issue with the Gorn, imo, as well as the canon example at Cetus III if I recall correctly a decent chunk of expanded lore has them trying to assert/support their ancestral claims on a wide variety of worlds (including those within the federation) by raids for archeological purposes.
It's not impossible that as well as standard colonial concerns we end up finding Gorn ships in systems/over worlds we never thought they would appear by.

I wouldn't mind giving that scientist an underslung grenade launcher (RFL) either.

The place to save cost on this ship is hull mass, engines, and phaser armament. Torpedoes and shields is where I want our totally not money to go.
Aye.

I think that covariant standard with a RFL and two forward phasers is the way to go in that respect. Assuming my calculations are correct we'd have an almost Constitution class alpha strike and on the same weapons/shield budget as the second tranche Excaliburs we'd be able to fit out 8.5 Darwin's. Edit: on a 120kt hull.
 
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I wouldn't mind giving that scientist an underslung grenade launcher (RFL) either.

The place to save cost on this ship is hull mass, engines, and phaser armament. Torpedoes and shields is where I want our totally not money to go.
Hull mass isn't all that significant cost wise, the difference between a 130kt Newton and the 180kt Excalibur isn't even 10 cost (the Newton cost in the quote includes 2 Type 2 Thrusters) and the difference between the 150kt Archer and Newton is even less despite the Archer having experimental hull material and Thruster.
Project Halley Cost: 34 (B-)
Project Newton Cost: 30 (A+) [+17 Cost Planned]
[ ] Two Type-2 Thrusters (33 -> 37.5 Cost) [Medium-High Maneuverability]
As for shields, a larger ship using Light Covariant's can come out to having more Shield Strength for less cost compared to a smaller ship with Standard Covariant's.

I do agree that we can potentially skimp on Phasers but only if we make sure it's got good maneuverability. Two Type 3's will max out the ship's maneuverability which will not only boost ship survivability but also offensive capabilities since it can more consistently get targets into it's firing arc.
 
I'm not convinced we need max maneuverability on this ship. High or medium-high would be plenty.

Mostly unrelated, I almost want to skip the forward torpedo, and put a rear-facing RFL. Just drive home the idea that this ship should be running from fights.

(Gotta have that RFL somewhere though, don't want to be losing any fights it does get into.)
 
The way I figure it, this is a specialist ship that's never going to be built in large numbers. So while lower Cost is always good, we don't need to try and make this cheap enough to make in big batches. Therefore, I think trading Cost for a more capable ship is well worth doing.
 
I'm not convinced we need max maneuverability on this ship. High or medium-high would be plenty.

Mostly unrelated, I almost want to skip the forward torpedo, and put a rear-facing RFL. Just drive home the idea that this ship should be running from fights.

(Gotta have that RFL somewhere though, don't want to be losing any fights it does get into.)

Yeah, I don't want every ship we design to be a torpedo boat. I'm gonna vote sphere for the hull shape just to drive home the non-combat focus of the ship. People are already talking about "D6 Deleters" on a bioscience ship request.

I just want to make a cool science support ship, not an escort for the Excalibur in disguise. It is not even going to be a good patrol candidate, as it's going to already cataloged places and sitting there for at months if not longer collecting and studying huge amounts of samples.
 
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The way I figure it, this is a specialist ship that's never going to be built in large numbers. So while lower Cost is always good, we don't need to try and make this cheap enough to make in big batches. Therefore, I think trading Cost for a more capable ship is well worth doing.
I'm reasonably confident that as long as we manage costs properly (not making this thing an Oberth, nor taking every tactical option under the sun) we will get a class at least the size of the Kea-class, potentially up to 16 of the things, as those numbers would let every quadrant of the Federation (which keep in mind are only gonna get bigger with expansion) have 3-4 Darwin's going about and finding decent places to plant colonies*.

*Whilst not exactly a year long thing, comprehensive requirement for the studies of the planets will probably mean each of these ships is parked over one for multiple months.

Edit:
People are already talking about "D6 Deleters" on a bioscience ship request.
One person was, me. And that was as a result of me trying to see what a practical maximum firepower and shields would get us cost and raw stats wise, not necessarily what I would pick.
 
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