Si Deus Nobiscum: A Polish-Lithuanian Scion Quest

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Rolman said:
I hope people don't mind this little experiment of mine! I had lots of fun writing it.
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I love it, and Marianna is of course more correct about Stanislaw than she isn't. Segregation, in this case by gender, really does make mutual understanding impossible between these two.

I think this decision is about not boring the princess while also not insulting her.

Tentatively putting down this vote, but I'm open to a write-in.

[X] "Because Prince Batory is too old to treat you with respect, Your Highness."

ORE said:
[] "because we both know that your highness' only available choice is who to wed"



Putting it another way

You must wed someone, who does she really want?
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I feel like these are fighting words.
 
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[X] "because we both know that your highness' only available choice is who to wed"

[X] Write-In: Because Prince Matthias is young, and healthy, and from a family healthy enough to marry into half the titles in Europe. Because the right pacts and bargains made right now could, God willing, serve the Commonwealth even onto the better part of a century, as the passage into middle-age and beyond keeps the throne occupied and the Two Nations stable. How long would it really be after Bathory is made king, that another Sejm must gather for another election, and another?

I love the implication

Also i liked the pov of maryna, and really is that we have to get them to talk without one of them have to almost die for to be honest with themselves.
 
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Baltika9 said:
I love it, and Marianna is of course more correct about Stanislaw than she isn't. Segregation, in this case by gender, really does make mutual understanding impossible between these two.

I think this decision is about not boring the princess while also not insulting her.

Tentatively putting down this vote, but I'm open to a write-in.

[X] "Because Prince Batory is too old to treat you with respect, Your Highness."



I feel like these are fighting words.
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I respectfully disagree. Even her highness is going to have to marry. It's just how it is and they both know that. I think it's a good angle to turn it around don't try and tell her why she would want our candidate, ask her what she wants and then try to convince from that Starting point.
 
They boy will be playing second fiddle in the beginning of the relationship. He must still "learn" after all in the beginning.

[x] "Because the realm needs an educated, wise ruler; that would be you, Your Highness."
 
noname12354 said:
They boy will be playing second fiddle in the beginning of the relationship. He must still "learn" after all in the beginning.

[x] "Because the realm needs an educated, wise ruler; that would be you, Your Highness."
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I think that saying it this explicitly is dangerous
It's one thing to point out he's young and pliable it's another thing to all but state that she be the power behind the throne
I do not think she'll take it well tbh
 
Personally, I haven't got a clue which option to go with. I don't have a clue which would appeal to Anna the most and convince her to our side.
 
I think that saying Matthias is pliable and that she'll be the power behind the throne is a very dangerous thing to do.

So it endlessly reminding everyone how easily the strings can be pulled for Maciej as well.

It's one thing to say he'll adopt to the Commonwealth's culture, liberties and processes. It's another thing entirely to basically say he'll be a puppet monarch. No one wants a puppet king, but no one wants an overbearing king either. It's a fine balance to strike.

I feel, perhaps, reminding Anna that she is a great legitimizer is good. So would be trying to disparage Bathory, but I feel disparaging wouldn't be as efficient as the other option.

I'm with ORE here.
[X] "because we both know that your highness' only available choice is who to wed"
 
[:V] "If you marry him you're going to have to spend the rest of your life trying to keep a straight face every time someone calls your husband "Master Batory"
 
I think that this is the entirely wrong sort of pragmatism to be discussing. Literally the entire narrative of this update has been of their existence as birds in cages, ornaments really. It's tonally deaf to the Infanta when this will be the only real choice she has, to appeal on the grounds that it will be one or the other slapping her in the face with the weight of their duties in life as noblewomen.

Neither option directly appealing for rulership are favorable because the life she has lived is one that is utterly convinced that she will never be allowed to be more than she is. She would laugh off the prospect of being able to puppet Mattias or ruling in her own right because though she is respected and listened to there is no belief in her that any of these great men of the realm would accept real fealty to her by proxy or otherwise.

It will be difficult to move her but I believe any rhetoric at this stage has to revolve around preserving the Infanta's remaining dignity.

[X] "Because Prince Batory is too old to treat you with respect, Your Highness."
[X] "Let us as children of Eve speak truth. Be they magnate or Cossack all men of the realm hear your words, and consider them with the weight of any king. True though it may, their ego will not tolerate rulership, subservience, fealty to those born of Adam's rib as consort, whether to a Transylvanian prince or a scion of the Habsburgs. We who persist transiently at the edges of their attention know an existence of degrees. Consider the boy Mattias. All would presume you to whisper in his ear, but he is of clay and to become a citizen of the Commonwealth his great teacher will be you whether he knows this or not. Let them whisper as they always have. Though you may not rule you will have made a patriot by your presence. Batory is a prince in his own right forged of iron and blood. A child of Caine as much as Adam. Could he tolerate one such as you? One who commands respect if not fealty? A patriot in his home? A man who has warred in Hungary and Wallachia for decades? We both know he could not tolerate a woman of real will, not even as an ornament. His interest will be of his backers and princedom alone and nothing more."

I don't know if this write in is of an appropriate length or perhaps consider it flavoring, but she simply seems to jaded to me to be enticed whatsoever by incentives of greater influence or the prospect of rulership. Rather it is the threat of Bathory, a foreigner of his own agenda that would be the only option here to sway her, that she might be stripped of her remaining dignity as a patriot of the Commonwealth by a prince of iron.
 
ORE said:
I respectfully disagree. Even her highness is going to have to marry. It's just how it is and they both know that. I think it's a good angle to turn it around don't try and tell her why she would want our candidate, ask her what she wants and then try to convince from that Starting point.
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She will, yes, but hearing it so bluntly from a woman won't help sway her to our side and ignores the fact that Anna wants to exercise her own agency in this situation. Doing it this way misses our one opportunity to give her a reason why she should exercise that agency in a way that helps us.

Furthermore, this is a very masculine presentation of her choice: "You, a woman, will be utilized one way or another. The only thing you, a thing, can affect is how you will be utilized." I will ask everyone to recall Rolman's warning to us in this update:
Rolman said:
Recall that you're playing the Princess at the moment; be sure to roleplay accordingly.
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We are playing Mary, a young, ambitious and intelligent woman who is also chafing under the yoke of this hierarchy in the way Anna is. We have the opportunity to empathize with the Infanta and her dilemma, to make her want to side with us.

I think that presenting her with two dog tags, one with the name 'Batory' and the other with the name 'Habsburg,' is a tremendous waste of an opportunity to communicate effectively in this scenario. It is also funny, because Mary too is a 'thing' just like Anna in this social structure, and we'll effectively be a dog telling another dog to get back into its kennel. I think you yourself would be insulted if a peer or near-peer would speak to you this way, especially a junior peer.

[X] "Because Prince Batory is too old to treat you with respect, Your Highness."

[X] "Let us as children of Eve speak truth. Be they magnate or Cossack all men of the realm hear your words, and consider them with the weight of any king. True though it may, their ego will not tolerate rulership, subservience, fealty to those born of Adam's rib as consort, whether to a Transylvanian prince or a scion of the Habsburgs. We who persist transiently at the edges of their attention know an existence of degrees. Consider the boy Mattias. All would presume you to whisper in his ear, but he is of clay and to become a citizen of the Commonwealth his great teacher will be you whether he knows this or not. Let them whisper as they always have. Though you may not rule you will have made a patriot by your presence. Batory is a prince in his own right forged of iron and blood. A child of Caine as much as Adam. Could he tolerate one such as you? One who commands respect if not fealty? A patriot in his home? A man who has warred in Hungary and Wallachia for decades? We both know he could not tolerate a woman of real will, not even as an ornament. His interest will be of his backers and princedom alone and nothing more."
 
Baltika9 said:
She will, yes, but hearing it so bluntly from a woman won't help sway her to our side and ignores the fact that Anna wants to exercise her own agency in this situation. Doing it this way misses our one opportunity to give her a reason why she should exercise that agency in a way that helps us.

Furthermore, this is a very masculine presentation of her choice: "You, a woman, will be utilized one way or another. The only thing you, a thing, can affect is how you will be utilized." I will ask everyone to recall Rolman's warning to us in this update:

We are playing Mary, a young, ambitious and intelligent woman who is also chafing under the yoke of this hierarchy in the way Anna is. We have the opportunity to empathize with the Infanta and her dilemma, to make her want to side with us.

I think that presenting her with two dog tags, one with the name 'Batory' and the other with the name 'Habsburg,' is a tremendous waste of an opportunity to communicate effectively in this scenario. It is also funny, because Mary too is a 'thing' just like Anna in this social structure, and we'll effectively be a dog telling another dog to get back into its kennel. I think you yourself would be insulted if a peer or near-peer would speak to you this way, especially a junior peer.

[X] "Because Prince Batory is too old to treat you with respect, Your Highness."

[X] "Let us as children of Eve speak truth. Be they magnate or Cossack all men of the realm hear your words, and consider them with the weight of any king. True though it may, their ego will not tolerate rulership, subservience, fealty to those born of Adam's rib as consort, whether to a Transylvanian prince or a scion of the Habsburgs. We who persist transiently at the edges of their attention know an existence of degrees. Consider the boy Mattias. All would presume you to whisper in his ear, but he is of clay and to become a citizen of the Commonwealth his great teacher will be you whether he knows this or not. Let them whisper as they always have. Though you may not rule you will have made a patriot by your presence. Batory is a prince in his own right forged of iron and blood. A child of Caine as much as Adam. Could he tolerate one such as you? One who commands respect if not fealty? A patriot in his home? A man who has warred in Hungary and Wallachia for decades? We both know he could not tolerate a woman of real will, not even as an ornament. His interest will be of his backers and princedom alone and nothing more."
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I respectfully disagree
I think there's an honesty in someone who faces a similar situation stating it this way. There's an unspoken solidarity in shared circumstance. And if you're going to say you don't think my write it in is very in character I don't think yours is for someone who isn't very devout. And frankly it's far too long.
 
ORE said:
I respectfully disagree
I think there's an honesty in someone who faces a similar situation stating it this way. There's an unspoken solidarity in shared circumstance. And if you're going to say you don't think my write it in is very in character I don't think yours is for someone who isn't very devout. And frankly it's far too long.
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The write-in is Sturmi's, and while it is long, they offered it as flavor to get their point across, as their post says.

As I see it, the point of their write-in is to reframe Anna's decision from 'at least I can keep the damn Lithuanians from undoing my brother's work by marrying Batory' to 'marrying the Habsburg will enable me to shape the Commonwealth's future.' The religious terminology in that write-in isn't about religion, but about the sex-based prejudices of their society and how they affect Anna's ability to exercise her agency. What I see here is an vision, phrased as an offer to a respected elder and not as an ultimatum from one slave to another, for how Anna can exercise her agency in a way that will let her the future of the Commonwealth in a far greater way than she can do with Bathory. Instead of treating her as a bed-warmer to one of two men, we are offering her an outlet for her ambition.

Recall Stanislaw's meeting with her:
Rolman said:
Anna looks back down, still working. "You have come to me wanting something, Your Serene Highness, and that's no problem. Ever since that preening little man meant to wed me left, that's all they want these days. That's all they wanted before that, anyhow." She shakes her head. "Nobody wants to shoot dice with old Infanta Anna anymore, oh no. Those days are far behind. I weave and I watch and I wait."



They said that she's a spinster, dull and pious. You're not so sure now. She reminds you of the defeated Ostrogski girl, your old marriage prospect. There's something in there. "So," she says, at last stopping her embroidering. "What does the heir to all Lithuania desire?"



That's a mighty strong way of putting it, but it's not like she's incorrect. The real heirs moreso, in your mind, would be Sierotka and your older brothers. Yourself and the three teenage brothers of your cousin are princes, rather than the firstborn kings or a battle-hardened hetman who earned his way, like Krzysztof, one of the youngest generals in the realm.



But, you must answer her. "I must entrust my lady with delicate information regarding herself."



"Myself?" she chuckles. "Well, I certainly hope I know myself, for if I haven't known myself, I'll have not known what I am. Is there something I'm unaware of yet?"



You return a laugh nervously. "Well, I'm sure that the implications of a marriage is something you're more than aware of." You swallow and let it out: "would you assent to a marriage to a man of the House of Habsburg, perhaps one of the Emperor's sons?"



She raises her eyebrows. "And would that be for the good of the realm?"



"In my opinion, my lady, yes. Whatever the outcome of the next election, half the realm will hate the new king, and the other half will love him, you say. "My lady, Your Highness, you would be the great legitimizer – perhaps even ruling sui juris."

"I am old, Your Serene Highness," Anna says, not betraying a thing, "I am no longer desirous of great power, a good husband, anything. What I care for is the legacy of my dear departed brother, and the good of the Crown." She leans back in her seat. "A Habsburg is good for Lithuania, good for the Ruthenians – it is not good for Liberty, for the Crownlands."
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And this line in particular:
"I am old, Your Serene Highness," Anna says, not betraying a thing, "I am no longer desirous of great power, a good husband, anything. What I care for is the legacy of my dear departed brother, and the good of the Crown." She leans back in her seat. "A Habsburg is good for Lithuania, good for the Ruthenians – it is not good for Liberty, for the Crownlands."
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This is what sturmi's write-in targets, which is a show of great empathy for Anna and shows her how siding with us will her do the thing she wants to do in a way that siding with Batory will not.
 
I think the key thing, the thing Infante Anna actually wants from the business merger that is going to be her marriage, is securing the foundation for the Commonwealth after her. Both in how she's allowed to wield her powerless power, her silence shaped to boom like thunder, and in how she's actually interested in the throne as the junior co-monarch is in stewarding the next generation and keeping Poland-Lithuania free from the Wars of Religion and entangling continental affairs. So, as a hard-nosed realistic prospect that isn't too vainglorious or drawing too much on personal sisterhood which Anna will likely politely reject, I think the key thing about a Matthias candidacy is his youth- not for just reasons of pliability, but also because it secures the chance for the Pactas and coronation charters of the election and the Sejm, for all the will and testament of Infante Anna, to be binding on the king for a very long time. Only one last dance striking the right bargain for a man who could likewise become known as "Mattheus the Old". Whereas Bathory might be a slightly better deal for the peace of the Commonwealth now, but what about a couple decades from now, when its all up to Bathory's work in grooming a successor or even a successor's successor?

[X] Write-In: Because Prince Matthias is young, and healthy, and from a family healthy enough to marry into half the titles in Europe. Because the right pacts and bargains made right now could, God willing, serve the Commonwealth even onto the better part of a century, as the passage into middle-age and beyond keeps the throne occupied and the Two Nations stable. How long would it really be after Bathory is made king, that another Sejm must gather for another election, and another?

Kinda a 2/3s Matthias is young and pliable, and 1/3 Infante Anna is a wise ruler, of a write-in- if that's okay @Rolman ?
 
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Bangben said:
NOw that is funny. 'Habsburg' and 'healthy' mention in the same sentence.
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and the kicker is that compared to a lot of their contemporary Tudors (loved having only a handful of kids survive birth and childhood), Oranjes (loved never marrying/dying with no heirs and moving it to a cadet line of cousins), Rurikids (loved murdering other Rurikids), etc... all the incest seems to have actually made the Hapsburg patrimony unironically a healthier estate and enduring royal court and household. Isn't monarchy a wonderful system of government :V
 
ORE said:
"because we both know that your highness' only available choice is who to wed"
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Oh but that's the kicker.

She cannot choose. The Sejm decides that.

She will be forced to marry the Devil himself if the nobles wish it. Who she wants (or doesn't) is irrelevant.

I don't really like any of the options. To say, that Bathory is too old, when she herself isn't that young anymore...
 
Sertorius said:
She cannot choose. The Sejm decides that.
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True! This element was not emphasized enough by me: Anna is effectively a ward of the state, so to speak, and she has absolutely no say in the matter.

But she's still the Infanta, and if she declares a preference whether publicly or through backchannels, that means something. At least that's my QM interpretation. But at the end of the day, she's marrying the winner in all likelihood.
 
Rolman said:
True! This element was not emphasized enough by me: Anna is effectively a ward of the state, so to speak, and she has absolutely no say in the matter.

But she's still the Infanta, and if she declares a preference whether publicly or through backchannels, that means something. At least that's my QM interpretation. But at the end of the day, she's marrying the winner in all likelihood.
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By the way, the King has the same restrictions.

The Sejm decides who he can marry. Whatever political alliance he wishes to enact, he must secure the nobles' agreement for any marriage proposal.

There was a huge scandal, when Zygmunt August married in secret Barbara Radziwiłłówna (Stanisław's aunt, his father's younger sister). The reason? Pure, classic and tragic love. The nobles demanded an annulment of the marriage, but the King refused all forms of persuasion and even threatened to abdicate. In the end, he won (a rare thing indeed) and the Sejm relented, agreeing to her coronation as Queen consort. The Radziwiłłs were naturally very thrilled with this union (while the other magnate families were feeling a bit sour), hoping to capitalize on this politically and becoming the most powerful family of the Two Countries. Sadly, it wasn't meant to be, since Barbara soon fell ill and died, leaving Zygmunt August in despair.
 
Sertorius said:
By the way, the King has the same restrictions.

The Sejm decides who he can marry. Whatever political alliance he wishes to enact, he must secure the nobles' agreement for any marriage proposal.

There was a huge scandal, when Zygmunt August married in secret Barbara Radziwiłłówna (Stanisław's aunt, his father's younger sister). The reason? Pure, classic and tragic love. The nobles demanded an annulment of the marriage, but the King refused all forms of persuasion and even threatened to abdicate. In the end, he won (a rare thing indeed) and the Sejm relented, agreeing to her coronation as Queen consort. The Radziwiłłs were naturally very thrilled with this union (while the other magnate families were feeling a bit sour), hoping to capitalize on this politically and becoming the most powerful family of the Two Countries. Sadly, it wasn't meant to be, since Barbara soon fell ill and died, leaving Zygmunt August in despair.
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What made the scandal worse iirc is that Barbara was a native noblewomen, whereas before, to prevent one house from rising higher than the others, the King was encouraged to find a wife outside the country, and it had been centuries since a native Queen had been taken.

So he married, without permission, refused annulment, defied his mother, the Queen dowager and did it with a scion of a native dynasty
 
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McLuvin said:
What made the scandal worse iirc is that Barbara was a native noblewomen, whereas before, to prevent one house from rising higher than the others, the King was encouraged to find a wife outside the country, and it had been centuries since a native Queen had been taken.

So he married, without permission, refused annulment, defied his mother, the Queen dowager and did it with a scion of a native dynasty
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True, but it wasn't really that long. The last native Queen consort was crowned 126 years before Barbara.
 
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