Si Deus Nobiscum: A Polish-Lithuanian Scion Quest
- Thread starter Rolman
- Start date
- Mature Historic
Kir the Wizard
The Sun King
- Location
- Ukraine
[X] "...the coming of the Archduke will benefit us all."
2. Good question. I do not think there is definite proof. He supported both de Valois AND Bathory. The thing is, Bathory and his supporters (including the lone bishop) were branded "secret Calvinists" by political opponents. So if he was a Calvinist, he'd probably be subtle about it, because the Orthodox families turning to any other faith than Greek-Catholicism caused scandal, public discussion, and the resulting works from religious polemists on the matter of "HOW COULD YOU BETRAY YOUR FATHER'S FAITH!?!?"
Edite, @Rolman I also keep forgetting to note on the matter of settlers. Obviously, if you ask the Sejm, they will prefer to settle the land with landless Poles, rather than the Imperials' hodgepodge. But eventually such a settler policy caused ethnic conflict in Ukraine. And, of course, the old glory princely magnates will be unhappy to see "their lost ancestral lands" divided under foreign lesser nobles (since Yedisan was mentioned, for instance, the city now known as Odesa was founded by a Polish noble under the service of the Ostrogskis, according to one of the versions, at least)
1. All the Ostrogski cadet lines held some land there, but, considering that the adventurous Dmytro built the "First Sich" back in 1552-2556, the Nadporizhia likely already had a good enough frontier behind it, allowing Dmytro to play politics on "unclaimed" land. So, yes, you can be sure that the lads from Vyshnevets were already there.
2. Good question. I do not think there is definite proof. He supported both de Valois AND Bathory. The thing is, Bathory and his supporters (including the lone bishop) were branded "secret Calvinists" by political opponents. So if he was a Calvinist, he'd probably be subtle about it, because the Orthodox families turning to any other faith than Greek-Catholicism caused scandal, public discussion, and the resulting works from religious polemists on the matter of "HOW COULD YOU BETRAY YOUR FATHER'S FAITH!?!?"
Edite, @Rolman I also keep forgetting to note on the matter of settlers. Obviously, if you ask the Sejm, they will prefer to settle the land with landless Poles, rather than the Imperials' hodgepodge. But eventually such a settler policy caused ethnic conflict in Ukraine. And, of course, the old glory princely magnates will be unhappy to see "their lost ancestral lands" divided under foreign lesser nobles (since Yedisan was mentioned, for instance, the city now known as Odesa was founded by a Polish noble under the service of the Ostrogskis, according to one of the versions, at least)
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XXXIV-II. October 24, 1575. Warszawa, Polish Crownlands.
- Location
- United States
"...the coming of the Archduke will benefit us all." You pause for the sake of drama; they keep staring. The men sip their drinks. You adjust your grip on your crutches.
"Never before have we faced such a grand opportunity, sirs: to be met with a young man of wit and character – an heir fully formed – and to be able to mold him to our whims, our desires, to make a proper Sarmatian of a Westerner," you say. "We all assented to the coming of the French Prince, whether our hearts believed in him or not, and I feel as if many of us hoped for a young man of similar character to the young Austrian Archduke. But we all know how it turned out."
"Preening, preening, a little fop," grumbles Hetman Sieniawski, to the chuckles of the other three. They all seem to agree on that, even when some of them voted for him.
"Indeed, he did not reach our expectations or standards," you agree. "But did that French prince venture into a congress of his would-be lords and speak before them, make promises from his own mouth, rather than through an emissary? At the age of what? Eighteen?" You know that bastard Walezy well: "In his twenties – a few months my junior – the Frenchman had already learned to sneer at what he considered foreign, to enjoy the fine things of life without regard for country or people."
"But the Archduke Maciej?" you ask. "Surely, my lords, you were there to see his speech, and if you were detained, have read the transcriptions: he has offered up his body, his mind, and his soul in service to us. For the first time, we will have a king that truly knows his place, and can be educated on his unique role within our unique freedom," you say. "Imagine a young man educated by the teachings of our statesmen, our poets, our men of letters – unlike his brothers, he was not raised up by board-stiff Spaniards. He will listen to his people."
You look to Wiśniowiecki and Tyszkiewicz. "There will be no repeats of the injustices of Lublin, meted out by – and may he rest in the arms of Christ, for he was a good man – one accustomed to rule in the style as other kings do." You hope you haven't spoken too ill of the late Zygmunt August, for the sake of respect. You do not wish to appear an upstart, or too strong of a Lithuanian partisan. Perhaps, though, there is a world where the Ruthenians will be reunited with their Litwin brothers; you hope that the twin representatives of the south may deduce that. "What were the three promises of Walezy? Victorious war with the Muscovite, peace with the Turk, and riches for the realm and its noblemen. The Archduke brings forth that offer again."
"To the second point, Your Serene Highness…" It's Sieniawski, the military man, turning the heads of the other three. "All of us present, excepting my friend the Lord Swordbearer Tarnowski, hold our primary estates within striking distance of the Tatar. All of us know of their savagery," he says, eyes darting to where your leg would be. His fellows nod and hum. "And they are but hounds of the Turk – what if the Habsburgs draw us into war with the great janissary holding the leash?"
A common question, and a rightful one, you must confess. It's a good thing you've dedicated thought to this.
"Yes, of course, Lord Hetman, a valid concern," you say. "Might I remind my lords that for this reason have the Austrian emissaries – and the Archduke himself – promised…"
[] "...an armistice with the Turk, to coincide with an alliance with the Emperor. A perfect balance of power."
[] "...the creation of a strong military frontier, staffed by our motivated countrymen. There will exist forever a bulwark against Mohammatan aggression."
[] write-in.
Finish the sentence.
"Never before have we faced such a grand opportunity, sirs: to be met with a young man of wit and character – an heir fully formed – and to be able to mold him to our whims, our desires, to make a proper Sarmatian of a Westerner," you say. "We all assented to the coming of the French Prince, whether our hearts believed in him or not, and I feel as if many of us hoped for a young man of similar character to the young Austrian Archduke. But we all know how it turned out."
"Preening, preening, a little fop," grumbles Hetman Sieniawski, to the chuckles of the other three. They all seem to agree on that, even when some of them voted for him.
"Indeed, he did not reach our expectations or standards," you agree. "But did that French prince venture into a congress of his would-be lords and speak before them, make promises from his own mouth, rather than through an emissary? At the age of what? Eighteen?" You know that bastard Walezy well: "In his twenties – a few months my junior – the Frenchman had already learned to sneer at what he considered foreign, to enjoy the fine things of life without regard for country or people."
"But the Archduke Maciej?" you ask. "Surely, my lords, you were there to see his speech, and if you were detained, have read the transcriptions: he has offered up his body, his mind, and his soul in service to us. For the first time, we will have a king that truly knows his place, and can be educated on his unique role within our unique freedom," you say. "Imagine a young man educated by the teachings of our statesmen, our poets, our men of letters – unlike his brothers, he was not raised up by board-stiff Spaniards. He will listen to his people."
You look to Wiśniowiecki and Tyszkiewicz. "There will be no repeats of the injustices of Lublin, meted out by – and may he rest in the arms of Christ, for he was a good man – one accustomed to rule in the style as other kings do." You hope you haven't spoken too ill of the late Zygmunt August, for the sake of respect. You do not wish to appear an upstart, or too strong of a Lithuanian partisan. Perhaps, though, there is a world where the Ruthenians will be reunited with their Litwin brothers; you hope that the twin representatives of the south may deduce that. "What were the three promises of Walezy? Victorious war with the Muscovite, peace with the Turk, and riches for the realm and its noblemen. The Archduke brings forth that offer again."
"To the second point, Your Serene Highness…" It's Sieniawski, the military man, turning the heads of the other three. "All of us present, excepting my friend the Lord Swordbearer Tarnowski, hold our primary estates within striking distance of the Tatar. All of us know of their savagery," he says, eyes darting to where your leg would be. His fellows nod and hum. "And they are but hounds of the Turk – what if the Habsburgs draw us into war with the great janissary holding the leash?"
A common question, and a rightful one, you must confess. It's a good thing you've dedicated thought to this.
"Yes, of course, Lord Hetman, a valid concern," you say. "Might I remind my lords that for this reason have the Austrian emissaries – and the Archduke himself – promised…"
[] "...an armistice with the Turk, to coincide with an alliance with the Emperor. A perfect balance of power."
[] "...the creation of a strong military frontier, staffed by our motivated countrymen. There will exist forever a bulwark against Mohammatan aggression."
[] write-in.
Finish the sentence.
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[X] "...the creation of a strong military frontier, staffed by our motivated countrymen. There will exist forever a bulwark against Mohammatan aggression."
Promising a treaty we have no control on if it will be actually offered or accepted seems unwise
Promising a treaty we have no control on if it will be actually offered or accepted seems unwise
Kir the Wizard
The Sun King
- Location
- Ukraine
[X] "...the creation of a strong military frontier, staffed by our motivated countrymen. There will exist forever a bulwark against Mohammatan aggression."
An armstice will be broken sooner or later, either by their adventurous nobles, or ours. But a strong military is never bad.
An armstice will be broken sooner or later, either by their adventurous nobles, or ours. But a strong military is never bad.
- Location
- Mists of Albion
[X] "...the creation of a strong military frontier, staffed by our motivated countrymen. There will exist forever a bulwark against Mohammatan aggression."
The fortification and land grants have already been publicly promised and discussed by the Habsburg dignitaries at our encouragement, in a democratic fashion too, remind them of that.
Also, we can't promise not to be drawn into a Holy League, I've mentioned the Long Turkish War before, but I have no doubt in my mind we'll end up fighting in either that war, or some variant of it. The Commonwealth ended up fighting the Tartars on that border anyway, and considered sending troops to fight in Hungary, with a Habsburg king that's a certainty.
The fortification and land grants have already been publicly promised and discussed by the Habsburg dignitaries at our encouragement, in a democratic fashion too, remind them of that.
Also, we can't promise not to be drawn into a Holy League, I've mentioned the Long Turkish War before, but I have no doubt in my mind we'll end up fighting in either that war, or some variant of it. The Commonwealth ended up fighting the Tartars on that border anyway, and considered sending troops to fight in Hungary, with a Habsburg king that's a certainty.
bookwyrm
Doom of Public Libraries
- Location
- Wichita, Kansas
[X] "...the creation of a strong military frontier, staffed by our motivated countrymen. There will exist forever a bulwark against Mohammatan aggression."
What good hot-blooded marcher lord and frontier head-taker doesn't love the idea of rigging the game so that they never face consequences for their own raids... as long as they have some real control so that the fortification benefits them most of all and not runaway serfs and new colonists of the heartlands, anyway
What good hot-blooded marcher lord and frontier head-taker doesn't love the idea of rigging the game so that they never face consequences for their own raids... as long as they have some real control so that the fortification benefits them most of all and not runaway serfs and new colonists of the heartlands, anyway
[X] "...an armistice with the Turk, to coincide with an alliance with the Emperor. A perfect balance of power."
I'll play devil's advocate for the peace treaty.
With the other option, we're telling the local lords of significance that the structure of their fiefs (their direct source of power) will be changed by an influx of competing nobles from the Crownlands and they may react negatively and view it as an attack against them.
I'll play devil's advocate for the peace treaty.
With the other option, we're telling the local lords of significance that the structure of their fiefs (their direct source of power) will be changed by an influx of competing nobles from the Crownlands and they may react negatively and view it as an attack against them.
Asherterix
Out Exploring
- Location
- Approx. 15,396,300,000 miles away
- Pronouns
- He/They
[X] "...the creation of a strong military frontier, staffed by our motivated countrymen. There will exist forever a bulwark against Mohammatan aggression."
bookwyrm
Doom of Public Libraries
- Location
- Wichita, Kansas
Also I just thought of this, but if the Military Frontier successfully gets off the ground and proves a credible deterrence, then it's likely that the Crimean raiders will also not even press the barrier- going for Russia or like at worst our really marginal edges and using the valid excuse of the great line of fortifications to also just fuck off and demand more money and resources from the Ottoman Empire proper like good Samaritan nobles would.
- Pronouns
- He
[X] "...the creation of a strong military frontier, staffed by our motivated countrymen. There will exist forever a bulwark against Mohammatan aggression."
[X] "...the creation of a strong military frontier, staffed by our motivated countrymen. There will exist forever a bulwark against Mohammatan aggression."
- Location
- United States
[X] "...the creation of a strong military frontier, staffed by our motivated countrymen. There will exist forever a bulwark against Mohammatan aggression."
Kir the Wizard
The Sun King
- Location
- Ukraine
Right now Muscovy is de-facto under the Ottoman sphere of influence, and would only be allowed to be raided by the Crimeans slightly, large operations were sanctioned only when the goal was to punish Moscow / force it to do Turkish bidding, and this will continue until the Time of Troubles. Don is still there, though, and the Kalmyks will arrive to become a problem for everybody in a few decades.
EDIT: What COULD be a good use of Crimea's time for both us and Turkey is them consolidating the Caucasus, which is at that time full of states nominally loyal to either the Ottomans or the Safavids, but not exactly controlled (to the point that, like I mentioned before, Crimeans would often go after Caucasus Muslims in their ransom/slave raids, despite it being religiously forbidden)
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