Si Deus Nobiscum: A Polish-Lithuanian Scion Quest

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A Note on the Commonwealth's Forests
  • Informational
    • I was thinking about it, so now you have to, too.

    I noticed that I often characterize the forests of the Commonwealth as being defined by the sickeningly-Slavic birch alongside the Baltic pine (P. sylvestrus) -- the latter of which our hero used to constantly associate with pikes in his PTSD haze.

    After going down a weird rabbit hole, I realize that I am a little bit wrong. Like with most of Europe, the existing forestation of the countries that now comprise the PLC are defined by recent trends: deforestation during the Industrial Revolution and, perhaps unique to the Polish situation, large-scale damage wrought during WW2. Reforestation under government auspices in the wake of the war was led primarily by coniferous cultivars -- hence the pines everywhere -- with just over half of modern-day Poland's forests being comprised of conifers.

    The primeval forests enjoyed by Poland, Lithuania, Belarus, W. Ukraine etc. during the 16th and 17th centuries before major deforestation would have been much more broad-leafed in their compositions, hosting ancient maples, oaks, hornbeams, sycamores, and ash trees to a considerably greater extent than the more modern milieu of spruce, pine, and alder (which still propagated, of course). One may look to the preserved Białowieża Forest of the Polish-Belarusian borderlands -- where Stas' first battle was fought -- for a glimpse into the old forest cover that defined this section of Eastern Europe up to the 18th and 19th centuries.

    In short, there should be way more deciduous trees; my descriptions of the forests are much more in line with modern-day woods than those of the period. The birches are fine as far as I can tell lol.

    I cannot explain my actions regarding this post
     
  • Informational
    • Baltika9 said:
    Ok but how did this affect the political economy and the agricultural situation of the country?
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    Despite widespread forest cover, the PLC was actually a major grain exporter for most of the 16th and 17th centuries! particularly rye. This was a big money-maker and its decline by the turn of 1700 may or may not have been a factor in the Commonwealth's decline.

    Nerdorama said:
    We need to cut down the oak trees and build a navy out of them obviously.
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    I'm also relatively sure that the PLC was a lumber supplier too, and for naval components to boot, lots of pitch, I know that much -- ultimately dwarfed by the New World's big ole forests I'd reckon. Kind of off the cuff with this one.

    Other than what I know above, I can say that there are some major salt, lead, copper, and I think silver mines in the country's borders. Also the Baltic amber industry.

    Perhaps the great and mighty Sertorius will bring us insights!
     
    Rolman said:
    Despite widespread forest cover, the PLC was actually a major grain exporter for most of the 16th and 17th centuries! particularly rye. This was a big money-maker and its decline by the turn of 1700 may or may not have been a factor in the Commonwealth's decline.


    I'm also relatively sure that the PLC was a lumber supplier too, and for naval components to boot, lots of pitch, I know that much -- ultimately dwarfed by the New World's big ole forests I'd reckon. Kind of off the cuff with this one.

    Other than what I know above, I can say that there are some major salt, lead, copper, and I think silver mines in the country's borders. Also the Baltic amber industry.

    Perhaps the great and mighty Sertorius will bring us insights!
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    Thank you for the answers!

    And how did our family make their fortune? Where do the Radziwill magnates get their money from at this point in time?
     
    [X] attempt to recruit a large, impressive entourage.
    [X] Yes, and make your intentions known.
     
    Baltika9 said:
    Thank you for the answers!

    And how did our family make their fortune? Where do the Radziwill magnates get their money from at this point in time?
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    Here's my shaky take, perhaps a Polish-speaker cough cough has access to stuff I don't:

    The Radziwiłłowie are ultimately an indigenous Lithuanian family, bearing descent from the pagan aristocracy of old — by Stanisław's time they're thoroughly Polonized (he speaks minimal Lithuanian as noted in the char sheet; it's considered a peasant tongue I think) and only politically/proto-nationally identify as Lithuanian.

    So, it's a bit of inertia, at least by our time — the House of Buczacki made their nut off horse-breeding, on the other hand. The ancestral house of Astikas/Ościk boasted close companions of Vytautas the Great and Jogaila, and thus received favor and material wealth in equal measure. Radziwiłł/Radvila himself was already a bigshot by the mid-1400s.

    There's an interesting, apocryphal legend about the first Radziwiłł being found in a wolf's den by a Lithuanian shaman; another funny one is the House of Pac meeting the House of Pazzi in Florence(?) and being like "bro…. Pac [pronounced "pahts"]… Pazzi…. We r brothers…."
     
    [X] attempt to recruit a large, impressive entourage.
    [X] Yes, and make your intentions known.

    I'm confused, why are we reaching out the Hapsburgs again?
     
    Why the Habsburgs?
  • Informational
    • Rolen von Keng said:
    [X] attempt to recruit a large, impressive entourage.
    [X] Yes, and make your intentions known.

    I'm confused, why are we reaching out the Hapsburgs again?
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    Since Henryk/Aleksandar Walezy has returned to France, with an ultimatum sent to either return by May '75 or face deposition, your father is trying to get ahead in what he (and you) see as an imminent election. The objective is to discern a Habsburg candidate and to secure their assent to being ran as one -- whether that's the Emperor himself, a brother, son, nephew, whatever. It's an important diplomatic mission, and the most familial power delegated to you yet. This could be a history-changer, folks hehe.

    The Radziwiłł and broader Lithuanian/Ruthenian rationale for wanting a Habsburg is to neuter Crownlanders' power by parking a closely-associated, powerful new ally next door to them. The Lithuanian camp presumably would enjoy favorable treatment from a Habsburg King due to his indebtedness -- recall that the Radziwiłłowie may as well be the "royal family" of Lithuania and are one of the strongest in all the realm. They'd cozy up quick, is the idea. There's especially confidence in protecting religious tolerance in the wake of the Confederation, and the current Emperor is far from the biggest Catholic out there, believe it or not (some whispered he was a quasi-Lutheran!).

    Also of concern are the Tatar/Turkish, Muscovite, and maybe even Swedish threats. Lithuania is much more exposed to all three than the Crownlands. Getting the backing of the Habsburgs' extensive military power is another major factor. However, there are valid concerns that the Commonwealth would be dragged into the wars with the Ottomans in Hungary (though currently under ceasefire), or within the Empire in general.

    The Radziwiłłowie would be placed even closer to not just power, but the power of the HRE, the greatest family in all of Europe, currently making a bid for Universal Monarchy -- consult Sertorius' post for the Radziwiłł connection to that, and the source of the family's princely titles. So, on a self-serving level, the family's got money-sign eyes about it. I mean, imagine an Imperial-Radziwill marriage!

    @Sertorius how'd I do?
     
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  • Informational
    • Good Ending: the Habsburgs catch our pluralist virus, and we make a strong central Europe bloc, building a better, united Europe.
    Bad Ending: with the Commonwealth allied closer, the Catholic faction in the HRE overreaches against the Protestants and we get bogged down in Thirty Years War anyway, the Imperial Peace is broken still.

    If I were at the Emperor's place, I'd jump at the opportunity of a direct HRE-PLC union, and re-grab the lost Burgundian territories the next times France has a pre-Bourbon crisis. Then we fortify Belarus, leave Muscovy to the Swedes, and focus on slowly pushing the Turk from the Balkans.
    But with how uninterested they were last time, we can only hope. If anything, the Habsburgs has a better record on Catholic-Orthodox tension... but that's from the 18th century, who knows what they'll be up to in the era of Counter-Reformation. UNLESS the PLC becomes a positive infl.
     
    [X] attempt to recruit a large, impressive entourage.
    [X] Yes, and make your intentions known.
     
    Rolman said:
    Perhaps the great and mighty Sertorius will bring us insights!
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    If you insist...
    Rolman said:
    Despite widespread forest cover, the PLC was actually a major grain exporter for most of the 16th and 17th centuries! particularly rye. This was a big money-maker and its decline by the turn of 1700 may or may not have been a factor in the Commonwealth's decline.
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    The Commonwealth was know during the XVI and XVII centuries as the breadbasket of Europe. Ukraine in particular was famous for its vast fields and excellent soil. Grain was grown mostly for export and Gdańsk was the primary destination for both sellers and buyers (it is one of the reasons why the city became filthy rich and could build mighty fortifications and hire armies of mercenaries). Nobles and merchants would transport the crops to the city and the preferred way of doing so was by river. Vistula had a booming raftsman industry and it's a know fact, that transport by water is faster, cheaper and doable in larger quantities than by land. The most popular type of grain was rye, followed by oat, barley and wheat. I would like to point out here, that nobles were strictly forbidden from earning a living as merchants or craftsmen. Such jobs were considered beneath them and the punishment was being reduced in status to a commoner. It's one of the cultural reasons why banditry was seen as a better deal, than simply getting a job. There was one exception of course: selling crops grown on your own land.

    A pair of humorous pictures from the era regarding the grain trade and its loss of significance at the end of the XVII century:

    The left one says: "Grain pays" and the right one: "Grain doesn't pay".
    Rolman said:
    I'm also relatively sure that the PLC was a lumber supplier too, and for naval components to boot, lots of pitch, I know that much -- ultimately dwarfed by the New World's big ole forests I'd reckon. Kind of off the cuff with this one.
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    That is actually true, the Commonwealth was also a mighty source of lumber, tar and potash. These were all shipped back to Western Europe primarily on Dutch ships, since they were the masters of maritime trade of that era and had a significant presence in the city. As mentioned earlier, it was all sent to Gdańsk by using the Vistula river. Please keep in mind, that the flow of goods by using that waterway was large even by global standards. The Rhine in the Holy Roman Empire matched the Vistula's current (XVI century) commercial traffic only 250 years later! The rafter business was a key trade and very important for the well-being of Gdańsk.

    Rolman said:
    Other than what I know above, I can say that there are some major salt, lead, copper, and I think silver mines in the country's borders. Also the Baltic amber industry.
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    Salt was an important trade good. Indeed, the Żupa Krakowska or Cracow's Salt Mine, was a very lucrative company, that took care of the mines in Bochnia and Wieliczka, plus a few breweries and during the XVI century it was one of the most significant sources of income for the Crown. Lead and copper were exported as well, with the former being particulary noteworthy. Nothing special about silver, but amber was as popular as always, all the way since Roman times. It was called jantar (the old Slavic name for amber, long since out of use today) back then and the scientists of the time were always quarrelling about its origins: some said it was of plant origin after the ancient writers and others preferred the new mineral approach.
    Rolman said:
    So, it's a bit of inertia, at least by our time — the House of Buczacki made their nut off horse-breeding, on the other hand. The ancestral house of Astikas/Ościk boasted close companions of Vytautas the Great and Jogaila, and thus received favor and material wealth in equal measure. Radziwiłł/Radvila himself was already a bigshot by the mid-1400s.
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    The Radziwiłłs rose to prominence just like many other rich families: they were friends of the Grand Dukes and received many grants, offices and favours from them, hence they became the powerhouse they are at the time of the Quest. Nothing new here.
    Rolman said:
    @Sertorius how'd I do?
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    Very nice and logical. Everything's in order.

    Lithuania wanted an ally against Muscovy, its main threat. The Habsburgs had the money, power and connections to grant them just that and since they would probably prefer to remain in the Crownlands, closer to Vienna, who would be left to rule the GDL? The Radziwiłłs of course, since they would be their chief supporters. Crownlanders on the other hand feared, that they would drag them into a war with the Ottomans, since they were always at odds with them, hence why they weren't all that popular there. Keep in mind, that there is also the candidate from Sweden, John III or his son, the young Sigismund. The boy is Catholic and has a Jagiellon mother Catherine, Anna's sister, which made him a strong contender. Since their realm also has a border with Muscovy, they can be of help too.
     
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    On silver: if Ibn Batutta is to be believed, in the 13th century the Golden Horde noted the Ruthenians looking for silver in a mountainous region somewhere between New Saray and Crimea, which they called "the Ruthenian Mountains". Looking at where silver is located in Ukraine, and the only thing that fits is the Donets Ridge, which has some silver deposits, though isn't particularly high. Ibn Batutta doesn't describe any settlements there, however, noting that the prospectors come and go, and they use silver to make "suwam" (silver hryvna bullion currency).
     
    [X] Yes, and make your intentions known.

    100% think this will be important. Anna is a key mover and shaker for the top tier politics. I won't vote for the type of procession, as I'm to torn.
     
    consider this a final call!

    in my caprice, I took advantage of the lopsidedness of this vote to pre-write everything, and with things cooling down I'll just post the update later today should I not see any new votes. Sorry for lying about 48 hours!
     
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