- Location
- United States
[X] "We can pick them off from the barley fields, then charge out of it? Let them make it to the trail."
Si Deus Nobiscum: A Polish-Lithuanian Scion Quest
- Thread starter Rolman
- Start date
- Mature Historic
Sertorius on Law Enforcement and the Judiciary
Sertorius
Rebellious Legate
- Location
- Roma Invicta
[X] "I like the idea of the village. They'd be surrounded and outnumbered."
I prefer the overwhelming ambush from all sides in the village. The surest way of annihilating most if not all of the scum.
A few words regarding the cops.
So, law enforcement does exist of course. It's quite ineffective, but it exists. The local Starosta is the man responsible for the execution of law within his Starostwo (administrative unit, something like a County). Since the Starosta is usually some magnate or other rich noble that has better things to do, de facto the work is being carried out by his subordinate, a Podstarości, Wicestarosta, Burgrabia (sometimes called Murgrabia), Starosta Jurydyczny, Podwojewodzi... depends on the region of the Commonwealth. For Lithuania, it would be a Podwojewodzi (Vicepalatinus) or Podstarości (Vicecapitaneus) with the latter being a universal option for nearly the whole country. Think of him as the Sheriff, who has a few pleb Deputies to his name (Pachołkowie Starościńscy, Starosta's Men/Servants), that can count anything from half a dozen to a couple of dozens. They uphold the law, enforce court verdicts, guard the peace on the roads, etc. Before he and his men can do anything to a landed noble, there is a long legal fight (unless he was captured within 72 hours of committing a crime)... not so much with a poor nobleman without any land. Even then, the man usually has to send for help to other local noblemen to assist him with manpower in executing the law, if the perpetrator refuses to adhere to the courts... so yeah, it's a shitshow. Towns and cities keep town guards of course as well, but they cannot touch a nobleman, unless he causes trouble right in front of them.
Now, when it comes to noble brigands, if they have a banishment (exile, they have to leave the country) or worse, an infamy sentence to their name, they are screwed if captured. These verdicts were usually given in absentia, since many noblemen ignored the courts and never went to the hearings (and with the death penalty on the line in the more severe cases, who can blame them?). A banished noble, if captured, lands in prison but still has his privileges intact, therefore he cannot be killed on a whim. Infamy however, means that the noble loses all privileges and any man who kills him can do so without any repercussions and can expect a reward for his troubles from the authorities (and a banished noble who did the deed can have his banishment revoked). Also helping a infamis in any way (even giving him water) condemned the accomplice to the same status. In practice, you have to capture the man to enforce these laws. Some had magnate protectors that defended them from the courts and their verdicts (the infamous troublemaker and murderer Samuel Łaszcz had dozens of banishments and infamies to his name, yet was untouchable because he was protected by Hetman Stanisław Koniecpolski, since he was also an excellent soldier and leader in times of war; Koniecpolski needed such good men to fight the Tatars and any other enemies). Still, the raid itself is crime enough even if nobody had a sentence before and if captured by the law the attacker would have been subject to quick execution without a trial, since he was caught red-handed.
Some places do, however, execute the law with extreme impunity. The Royal court and the vincity of the monarch within the radius of a few miles are sacrosanct and anyone causing trouble or starting a fight there is subject to a very brutal crackdown and summary execution. The same will be with the Tribunals in the future, but they haven't been created yet (Court of Appeals for the Crown and Lithuania).
The interregnum itself is a time, when being a troublemaker is a bad idea. The regular Courts ceased to function (since they passed judgement in the name of the King, who was now dead). Kaptur (Hood) Courts were elected by each local Sejmik and worked in their stead during this time. The name came from the classic black hood used by executioners when perfoming the job. The Starostas and their men were subject to their whims. The Hood was a criminal court only and was surprisingly quick and effective at passing merciless judgements on anyone disturbing the peace during interregnum. There was a path of appeal to the General Confederation (the General Hood) but most brigands were summarily executed if they didn't have a magnate behind their back. The new King had to formally confirm all of the sentences of each Hood after his election.
Phew.
With all this in mind, back to our situation. The dead are dead, therefore no courts for them, no matter what they had done in life. If the village is owned by a private individual that cannot help for whatever reason (and he doesn't live there, since then his manor, servants and family would have been raided too and that implies he owns more than 1 village, making him a fairly rich man and a member of the middle nobility or a magnate), then he will be grateful to whomever saves his property from brigands. Whether it is a Radziwiłł force, a Starosta or whatever. Unless of course he has some beef with his saviour, who might use this opportunity to take over said village and lands by force (which was not so uncommon, especially for the rich and mighty). The local peasants (and administrator if present) of course will ask anyone for immediate help if available, therefore it would not be unreasonable for a passing troop to rescue them for a myriad of reasons, be it compensation, honor or anything else. The leader does accept the risk however for the situation and for his men, since they are in the employ of his master and should he be displeased with their intervention or its consequences, it may cost him his job or worse.
Edit
A few more notes:
Ukraine was by far the most lawless place of all, given its vast space, lack of law enforcement, frontier manners, Cossack and Tatar troubles and powerful magnates rulling the more civilized parts, waging a war with each other. It was the favourite destination of troublemakers, exiles, bandits, as well as men looking to earn their fortune. It's been sometimes called the Polish Wild West (or East in this case).
Each local Hood, as well as the General Hood enforced the peace using their own forces. Should they rely on Starostas alone (since they had no authority during interregnum, being enforcers of a dead King), they would have been as ineffective as them. Hoods raised their own troops using private money (the nobles themselves, their men, hired men, etc.) and used them to keep the peace, then disband them after the election was done. The General Hood had quite the force at its disposal to guard the election Sejm, so that Lord Firlej or anyone else would be disinclined to do something stupid there. Add to the mix the Hood Courts, that executed troublemakers without mercy (and very fast) and you have a country that was much safer during interregnum, than in times when there was a King on the throne!
In general, we can summarize the law and its enforcement in one short quotation.
"Every man in the Commonwealth is his own master, so long as he holds a sabre and can gather some men to his name."
The biggest stick rule mostly applies.
I prefer the overwhelming ambush from all sides in the village. The surest way of annihilating most if not all of the scum.
A few words regarding the cops.
So, law enforcement does exist of course. It's quite ineffective, but it exists. The local Starosta is the man responsible for the execution of law within his Starostwo (administrative unit, something like a County). Since the Starosta is usually some magnate or other rich noble that has better things to do, de facto the work is being carried out by his subordinate, a Podstarości, Wicestarosta, Burgrabia (sometimes called Murgrabia), Starosta Jurydyczny, Podwojewodzi... depends on the region of the Commonwealth. For Lithuania, it would be a Podwojewodzi (Vicepalatinus) or Podstarości (Vicecapitaneus) with the latter being a universal option for nearly the whole country. Think of him as the Sheriff, who has a few pleb Deputies to his name (Pachołkowie Starościńscy, Starosta's Men/Servants), that can count anything from half a dozen to a couple of dozens. They uphold the law, enforce court verdicts, guard the peace on the roads, etc. Before he and his men can do anything to a landed noble, there is a long legal fight (unless he was captured within 72 hours of committing a crime)... not so much with a poor nobleman without any land. Even then, the man usually has to send for help to other local noblemen to assist him with manpower in executing the law, if the perpetrator refuses to adhere to the courts... so yeah, it's a shitshow. Towns and cities keep town guards of course as well, but they cannot touch a nobleman, unless he causes trouble right in front of them.
Now, when it comes to noble brigands, if they have a banishment (exile, they have to leave the country) or worse, an infamy sentence to their name, they are screwed if captured. These verdicts were usually given in absentia, since many noblemen ignored the courts and never went to the hearings (and with the death penalty on the line in the more severe cases, who can blame them?). A banished noble, if captured, lands in prison but still has his privileges intact, therefore he cannot be killed on a whim. Infamy however, means that the noble loses all privileges and any man who kills him can do so without any repercussions and can expect a reward for his troubles from the authorities (and a banished noble who did the deed can have his banishment revoked). Also helping a infamis in any way (even giving him water) condemned the accomplice to the same status. In practice, you have to capture the man to enforce these laws. Some had magnate protectors that defended them from the courts and their verdicts (the infamous troublemaker and murderer Samuel Łaszcz had dozens of banishments and infamies to his name, yet was untouchable because he was protected by Hetman Stanisław Koniecpolski, since he was also an excellent soldier and leader in times of war; Koniecpolski needed such good men to fight the Tatars and any other enemies). Still, the raid itself is crime enough even if nobody had a sentence before and if captured by the law the attacker would have been subject to quick execution without a trial, since he was caught red-handed.
Some places do, however, execute the law with extreme impunity. The Royal court and the vincity of the monarch within the radius of a few miles are sacrosanct and anyone causing trouble or starting a fight there is subject to a very brutal crackdown and summary execution. The same will be with the Tribunals in the future, but they haven't been created yet (Court of Appeals for the Crown and Lithuania).
The interregnum itself is a time, when being a troublemaker is a bad idea. The regular Courts ceased to function (since they passed judgement in the name of the King, who was now dead). Kaptur (Hood) Courts were elected by each local Sejmik and worked in their stead during this time. The name came from the classic black hood used by executioners when perfoming the job. The Starostas and their men were subject to their whims. The Hood was a criminal court only and was surprisingly quick and effective at passing merciless judgements on anyone disturbing the peace during interregnum. There was a path of appeal to the General Confederation (the General Hood) but most brigands were summarily executed if they didn't have a magnate behind their back. The new King had to formally confirm all of the sentences of each Hood after his election.
Phew.
With all this in mind, back to our situation. The dead are dead, therefore no courts for them, no matter what they had done in life. If the village is owned by a private individual that cannot help for whatever reason (and he doesn't live there, since then his manor, servants and family would have been raided too and that implies he owns more than 1 village, making him a fairly rich man and a member of the middle nobility or a magnate), then he will be grateful to whomever saves his property from brigands. Whether it is a Radziwiłł force, a Starosta or whatever. Unless of course he has some beef with his saviour, who might use this opportunity to take over said village and lands by force (which was not so uncommon, especially for the rich and mighty). The local peasants (and administrator if present) of course will ask anyone for immediate help if available, therefore it would not be unreasonable for a passing troop to rescue them for a myriad of reasons, be it compensation, honor or anything else. The leader does accept the risk however for the situation and for his men, since they are in the employ of his master and should he be displeased with their intervention or its consequences, it may cost him his job or worse.
Edit
A few more notes:
Ukraine was by far the most lawless place of all, given its vast space, lack of law enforcement, frontier manners, Cossack and Tatar troubles and powerful magnates rulling the more civilized parts, waging a war with each other. It was the favourite destination of troublemakers, exiles, bandits, as well as men looking to earn their fortune. It's been sometimes called the Polish Wild West (or East in this case).
Each local Hood, as well as the General Hood enforced the peace using their own forces. Should they rely on Starostas alone (since they had no authority during interregnum, being enforcers of a dead King), they would have been as ineffective as them. Hoods raised their own troops using private money (the nobles themselves, their men, hired men, etc.) and used them to keep the peace, then disband them after the election was done. The General Hood had quite the force at its disposal to guard the election Sejm, so that Lord Firlej or anyone else would be disinclined to do something stupid there. Add to the mix the Hood Courts, that executed troublemakers without mercy (and very fast) and you have a country that was much safer during interregnum, than in times when there was a King on the throne!
In general, we can summarize the law and its enforcement in one short quotation.
"Every man in the Commonwealth is his own master, so long as he holds a sabre and can gather some men to his name."
The biggest stick rule mostly applies.
Last edited:
Astra Myst
Do you want a wish?
- Location
- Milky Way Galaxy
[X] "We can pick them off from the barley fields, then charge out of it? Let them make it to the trail."
Kir the Wizard
The Sun King
- Location
- Ukraine
[X] "I like the idea of the village. They'd be surrounded and outnumbered."
- Location
- Your pantry
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] "We can pick them off from the barley fields, then charge out of it? Let them make it to the trail."
I'm somewhat wary about surrounding them in the village since if they're trapped with no route to escape, they might turn to drastic mesures. Cornered animal and all that. We want a route so we can chase them down on horse and pick them off while they're disorganized and fleeing.
I'm somewhat wary about surrounding them in the village since if they're trapped with no route to escape, they might turn to drastic mesures. Cornered animal and all that. We want a route so we can chase them down on horse and pick them off while they're disorganized and fleeing.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
Are our carbines good enough for the barely field, I don't know the skill of our men, but no more than 60 paces should be excepted from the gifted retuine of a third prince?
- Location
- NY
[X] "I like the idea of the village. They'd be surrounded and outnumbered."
[X] "I like the idea of the village. They'd be surrounded and outnumbered."
Seems like the best idea for making sure as few of them run away as possible
Seems like the best idea for making sure as few of them run away as possible
"Sparking Powder." Pt. II. May 20, 1573. Białowieża Forest, Crown-Lithuanian Borderland.
- Location
- United States
Marszowski and van Gistel nod approvingly at the idea, but have a couple questions. "There is nothing more important in the stratagem of ambush than detail, Your Serene Highness," says the Netherlander.
The men are informed that they will go into battle that night and most are excited; some grumble about the relative lack of honor in killing brigands; none show fear except for the little lads. Their confidence is contagious, and you soon find yourself cracking jokes and sipping spirits amid the lordlings. You feel a brotherhood, already as if these men would die for you -- and they would.
The evening is dedicated to the particulars. The men are armed and the horses fed and watered, mass is performed before a Calvinist service is held. The peasants pray in their Orthodox church and show that they are prepared, too: the men of the village – from little lads just strong enough to make hay to men on the brink of old age, they stand ready with billhooks fastened to poles, grainflails, and woodsmen's axes. A few hold bows and the richest man in the hamlet clutches his matchlock nervously.
Among your sworn men, there are not enough carbines to go around. Who will receive them?
[] The infantry.
To establish a crossfire during the opening volley from the barley fields. Maxing out the carbines' range but should provide relatively accurate fire.
[] The cavalry.
To strengthen the shock of their charge, and allow for the picking off of retreating foes.
Marszowski, who will lead the mounted detachment, wants to know: from where should the cavalry charge?
[] From the rear.
Cut them off and cut them down as they flee or are otherwise engaged with the footmen. Removes or greatly reduces the enemy's chance of escape. However, there is a chance that the horsemen would wind up meeting the bandits on the main road or arriving too late entirely.
[] From the fields.
Hard to conceal, an attack from the fields would be somewhat slow and would slow down the infantry charge, too. However, crashing into the enemy's flanks in two waves from both sides would be devastating, although guaranteeing a bit of a melee on the trail leading into the village.
[] From the village.
The sight of a detachment of noble cavalry suddenly barrelling down the village trail, facing their carbines or otherwise dazed by the infantry's volley, should make even the toughest of bandits turn tail – right into the waiting infantry. However, it will take some time for the horsemen to make contact, and our footmen will be reluctant to advance onto the trail and risk being struck by their own cavalry charge.
And from van Gistel, captain of foot: what to do with the peasant militia?
[] Hold them in reserve in the village.
In a few words: don't use them. Or, at least, only use them as a last resort should things go very wrong. A serf with a weapon may look too much like a bandit in the nighttime, and it's best to keep an untrained, untested, undisciplined force out of any attack.
[] Use them to pad out the numbers of the infantry ambush.
Maximizing the strength and shock of the foot charge is essential to a successful rout – or slaughter. The peasants are motivated and add significant numbers (and numbers that won't be missed should they become casualties) to your infantry; every third man would be a serf, should they be utilized. However, would considerably increase the chaos of the melee.
[] Have them cut off the bandits' retreat in a blocking action.
Using their ultralight nature and knowledge of the land, maneuver the serf militia to cut off the bandits in a massed formation up the trail, blocking the road. The enemy would hopefully break, surrender, or bypass the mass of angry peasants by fleeing into the barley fields, where they'd be isolated and basically defenseless for our horse.
The men are informed that they will go into battle that night and most are excited; some grumble about the relative lack of honor in killing brigands; none show fear except for the little lads. Their confidence is contagious, and you soon find yourself cracking jokes and sipping spirits amid the lordlings. You feel a brotherhood, already as if these men would die for you -- and they would.
The evening is dedicated to the particulars. The men are armed and the horses fed and watered, mass is performed before a Calvinist service is held. The peasants pray in their Orthodox church and show that they are prepared, too: the men of the village – from little lads just strong enough to make hay to men on the brink of old age, they stand ready with billhooks fastened to poles, grainflails, and woodsmen's axes. A few hold bows and the richest man in the hamlet clutches his matchlock nervously.
Among your sworn men, there are not enough carbines to go around. Who will receive them?
[] The infantry.
To establish a crossfire during the opening volley from the barley fields. Maxing out the carbines' range but should provide relatively accurate fire.
[] The cavalry.
To strengthen the shock of their charge, and allow for the picking off of retreating foes.
Marszowski, who will lead the mounted detachment, wants to know: from where should the cavalry charge?
[] From the rear.
Cut them off and cut them down as they flee or are otherwise engaged with the footmen. Removes or greatly reduces the enemy's chance of escape. However, there is a chance that the horsemen would wind up meeting the bandits on the main road or arriving too late entirely.
[] From the fields.
Hard to conceal, an attack from the fields would be somewhat slow and would slow down the infantry charge, too. However, crashing into the enemy's flanks in two waves from both sides would be devastating, although guaranteeing a bit of a melee on the trail leading into the village.
[] From the village.
The sight of a detachment of noble cavalry suddenly barrelling down the village trail, facing their carbines or otherwise dazed by the infantry's volley, should make even the toughest of bandits turn tail – right into the waiting infantry. However, it will take some time for the horsemen to make contact, and our footmen will be reluctant to advance onto the trail and risk being struck by their own cavalry charge.
And from van Gistel, captain of foot: what to do with the peasant militia?
[] Hold them in reserve in the village.
In a few words: don't use them. Or, at least, only use them as a last resort should things go very wrong. A serf with a weapon may look too much like a bandit in the nighttime, and it's best to keep an untrained, untested, undisciplined force out of any attack.
[] Use them to pad out the numbers of the infantry ambush.
Maximizing the strength and shock of the foot charge is essential to a successful rout – or slaughter. The peasants are motivated and add significant numbers (and numbers that won't be missed should they become casualties) to your infantry; every third man would be a serf, should they be utilized. However, would considerably increase the chaos of the melee.
[] Have them cut off the bandits' retreat in a blocking action.
Using their ultralight nature and knowledge of the land, maneuver the serf militia to cut off the bandits in a massed formation up the trail, blocking the road. The enemy would hopefully break, surrender, or bypass the mass of angry peasants by fleeing into the barley fields, where they'd be isolated and basically defenseless for our horse.
Kir the Wizard
The Sun King
- Location
- Ukraine
Could work, but I don't want us to cut off the peasants by mistake. I'm thinking...
[] Plan Snipers
-[] The infantry.
-[] From the village.
-[] Hold them in reserve in the village.
Sertorius
Rebellious Legate
- Location
- Roma Invicta
[x] Kill Them All
-[x] The infantry.
-[x] From the rear.
-[x] Use them to pad out the numbers of the infantry ambush.
My approach. The bandits will almost certainly be mounted (brigands on foot didn't appear far from their base of operations), plus a bunch of horsemen arriving in the village will always have a better effect on the locals. They will come full of themselves and confident in loose formation just like last time (and the many times before than in other villages) to demand what is theirs. They will be met by our ambush volley from the infantry and a charge to fight them in close quarters. The peasants will help mitigate the casualties. That's when the cavalry will come in to cut them off from retreating, since they will most certainly try to run back where they came from. Total slaughter ensures.
-[x] The infantry.
-[x] From the rear.
-[x] Use them to pad out the numbers of the infantry ambush.
My approach. The bandits will almost certainly be mounted (brigands on foot didn't appear far from their base of operations), plus a bunch of horsemen arriving in the village will always have a better effect on the locals. They will come full of themselves and confident in loose formation just like last time (and the many times before than in other villages) to demand what is theirs. They will be met by our ambush volley from the infantry and a charge to fight them in close quarters. The peasants will help mitigate the casualties. That's when the cavalry will come in to cut them off from retreating, since they will most certainly try to run back where they came from. Total slaughter ensures.
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My concern is that this plan has no one to provide security to the village proper. I expect the peasant militia to panic if they feel their village is directly threatened. If this happens, our infantry charge will be disrupted.
I'll take @Bylba's plan that has the cavalry charge from the village:
[X] Bylba's Plan
-[X] The infantry.
-[X] From the village.
-[X] Have them cut off the bandits' retreat in a blocking action.
Sertorius
Rebellious Legate
- Location
- Roma Invicta
I see no problem with that, simply evacuate the non-combatants for the duration of the fight.