- Location
- Canada
So I'm doing some planning while starting writing of Draft 6 of SI Archives, this time pushing back the major divergence from Draft 5's 1840s far enough that... I think I should check with a group.
Terminology: OTL = Our Timeline, ITL/TTL = In/This Timeline
Extreme Distal Divergence Point (?): All the way back almost to Mitochondrial Eve's time, but irrelevant, butterfly net is in full effect.
First Historically Notable Divergence Point: Henry VIII takes the third Danish offer he gets (in 1535) to de facto purchase Iceland and the Faroes for 50,000 florins. Butterfly net MOSTLY in effect as I doubt this would do much except perhaps very marginally more/better sailors being available.
History stays basically recognizable up to 1800 (or at least 1818 in Europe). Britain tends to demand one or two small Caribbean islands per won war, and do a small bit better at sea on average (i.e. English Armada response to the First Spanish Armada wasn't such a fail) but nothing monumental... despite this resulting in dominating the Lesser Antilles by 1800.
My most important question is whether "Walker" (Who vaguely resembles this guy: Joseph D. Kucan - Wikipedia) should start working on the dynasty he's setting up in 1775 or 1800. Taking a student earlier is of course better for Canada-wanking, but then I start running into serious accusations of witchcraft despite the 1735 Witchcraft Act by London.
I also run into the "Start as refugees fleeing from the US with household slaves and all into the wild frontier beyond Lake Ontario." problem as Toronto (initially "York") didn't exist then! As opposed to "rapidly growing town" mechanics with an 1800 start, which might be better for a girl being raised to seize what she wants from the world to not get too much resistance too early on.
A major problem with the 1775 start is keeping things toned down enough that Canada still forms i.e. the US will not (despite more competent Canadian leadership) lose hard enough in 1812 to no longer scare the BNA colonies shitless after the US-Mexican War. This won't be like Dathi Thorfinsson's Canada-Wank on AH.com!
Ultimate Objectives (subject to revision):
The second thing I'd like to discuss is how buying Iceland and the Faroes, with an eye on acquiring Greenland as a stopover colonizing North America (three 1000-mile legs to Newfoundland are less scurvy-prone than one 2000-mile leg straight across... in theory. In practice it won't affect much compared to OTL for colonization, perhaps a small bit more land claimed ashore in future Canada compared to France but very minor indeed) for 50,000 florins in 1535 would affect England with a pretty strong butterfly net in place (i.e. no "Elizabeth has heirs" or similar). How does this affect future conflicts England ends up in?
This is what I have up to First Anglo-Dutch War:
Do these divergences seem generally reasonably plausible (Cromwell's mess and the two Restorations are basically unchanged)? If they should be changed up somehow, how?
Terminology: OTL = Our Timeline, ITL/TTL = In/This Timeline
Extreme Distal Divergence Point (?): All the way back almost to Mitochondrial Eve's time, but irrelevant, butterfly net is in full effect.
First Historically Notable Divergence Point: Henry VIII takes the third Danish offer he gets (in 1535) to de facto purchase Iceland and the Faroes for 50,000 florins. Butterfly net MOSTLY in effect as I doubt this would do much except perhaps very marginally more/better sailors being available.
History stays basically recognizable up to 1800 (or at least 1818 in Europe). Britain tends to demand one or two small Caribbean islands per won war, and do a small bit better at sea on average (i.e. English Armada response to the First Spanish Armada wasn't such a fail) but nothing monumental... despite this resulting in dominating the Lesser Antilles by 1800.
My most important question is whether "Walker" (Who vaguely resembles this guy: Joseph D. Kucan - Wikipedia) should start working on the dynasty he's setting up in 1775 or 1800. Taking a student earlier is of course better for Canada-wanking, but then I start running into serious accusations of witchcraft despite the 1735 Witchcraft Act by London.
I also run into the "Start as refugees fleeing from the US with household slaves and all into the wild frontier beyond Lake Ontario." problem as Toronto (initially "York") didn't exist then! As opposed to "rapidly growing town" mechanics with an 1800 start, which might be better for a girl being raised to seize what she wants from the world to not get too much resistance too early on.
A major problem with the 1775 start is keeping things toned down enough that Canada still forms i.e. the US will not (despite more competent Canadian leadership) lose hard enough in 1812 to no longer scare the BNA colonies shitless after the US-Mexican War. This won't be like Dathi Thorfinsson's Canada-Wank on AH.com!
Ultimate Objectives (subject to revision):
REQUIRED: a sensibly built Greater Canada with at least (and pretty much at most) these additions:
Greenland and Iceland
Most of Great Lakes Drainage Basin and all of Hudson Bay drainage basin (i.e. including most of Red River Colony) (perhaps reaching west to Mississippi?) AKA all of Michigan, most of Wisconsin, most of Minnesota
Northern Maine and enough of New York to build a St. Lawrence Seaway entirely within Canada.
At least lands north of the Columbia if not the Snake, or even all of the Oregon dispute area.
Alaska
At least East Florida (if not also the old West Florida)
As many/much of the Caribbean islands as possible (i.e. Dutch ABC islands, basically everything but Cuba, Dominican Republic, maybe Puerto Rico, and the islands owned by Venezuela) and British Honduras (OTL Belize) including the Bahamas and Turks and Caicos Islands
OPTIONAL: Nabbing any mixture of Guyana, French Guiana, and Suriname would be useful, but not required.
OPTIONAL: Grabbing the Kamchatka peninsula region at some point (it's basically an island by infrastructure).
REQUIRED: Be able to (with Mexico as co-belligerent client state by that time) fend off a surprise US invasion during 2002-2005, and turn the tide with Russia and China on-side, without resorting to WMDs.
Greenland and Iceland
Most of Great Lakes Drainage Basin and all of Hudson Bay drainage basin (i.e. including most of Red River Colony) (perhaps reaching west to Mississippi?) AKA all of Michigan, most of Wisconsin, most of Minnesota
Northern Maine and enough of New York to build a St. Lawrence Seaway entirely within Canada.
At least lands north of the Columbia if not the Snake, or even all of the Oregon dispute area.
Alaska
At least East Florida (if not also the old West Florida)
As many/much of the Caribbean islands as possible (i.e. Dutch ABC islands, basically everything but Cuba, Dominican Republic, maybe Puerto Rico, and the islands owned by Venezuela) and British Honduras (OTL Belize) including the Bahamas and Turks and Caicos Islands
OPTIONAL: Nabbing any mixture of Guyana, French Guiana, and Suriname would be useful, but not required.
OPTIONAL: Grabbing the Kamchatka peninsula region at some point (it's basically an island by infrastructure).
REQUIRED: Be able to (with Mexico as co-belligerent client state by that time) fend off a surprise US invasion during 2002-2005, and turn the tide with Russia and China on-side, without resorting to WMDs.
For example, I'm not sure when Walker tells a retired (due to injury from Trafalgar) admiral "There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." with respect to said admiral's asking if he could come to England to tutor Princess Charlotte, will go with it or decline.
The upsides of Caroline (with a Prussian prince for a husband, allowing Leopold I to be as OTL) would be easier legalities for factional development. The downsides would include colossally increased research and dynastic analyses among other problems because butterflies would be STRONG. Hell, it could even result in a lack of a Soviet Union! On the other hand with two women who bestride the narrow world like colossi Maria of Portugal would not grow up thinking of herself as a broodmare... which means even more butterflies.
Alternatively, I go with OTL and Victoria happens, which results in hilarity 100 years later when the then-factional heiress, after decisively finishing WWI, is VERY glad to have about a foot and several stone over a certain fan of her generalship from the trenches (one Edward Albert Christian George Andrew Patrick David) who has 5.5 years on her, or the guy's brother who's 4 years older.
But that is for the future, after the War of 1812 equivalent (thoughKane "Walker" has to decide in 1807 whether to go tutor Charlotte part-time, this wouldn't really impinge on the story or even be noticeable until 1818... unless he decides to stick it in the crazy his student earlier in which case she might notice his teleports).
The upsides of Caroline (with a Prussian prince for a husband, allowing Leopold I to be as OTL) would be easier legalities for factional development. The downsides would include colossally increased research and dynastic analyses among other problems because butterflies would be STRONG. Hell, it could even result in a lack of a Soviet Union! On the other hand with two women who bestride the narrow world like colossi Maria of Portugal would not grow up thinking of herself as a broodmare... which means even more butterflies.
Alternatively, I go with OTL and Victoria happens, which results in hilarity 100 years later when the then-factional heiress, after decisively finishing WWI, is VERY glad to have about a foot and several stone over a certain fan of her generalship from the trenches (one Edward Albert Christian George Andrew Patrick David) who has 5.5 years on her, or the guy's brother who's 4 years older.
But that is for the future, after the War of 1812 equivalent (though
The second thing I'd like to discuss is how buying Iceland and the Faroes, with an eye on acquiring Greenland as a stopover colonizing North America (three 1000-mile legs to Newfoundland are less scurvy-prone than one 2000-mile leg straight across... in theory. In practice it won't affect much compared to OTL for colonization, perhaps a small bit more land claimed ashore in future Canada compared to France but very minor indeed) for 50,000 florins in 1535 would affect England with a pretty strong butterfly net in place (i.e. no "Elizabeth has heirs" or similar). How does this affect future conflicts England ends up in?
This is what I have up to First Anglo-Dutch War:
OTL: James III of Scotland seized the Orkneys and Shetlands in 1472 from Norway due to Christian I of Norway and Denmark failing to repay a loan. Henry VIII ascended the throne in 1509 and one of his first acts abolished the generally ignored 1429 statute requiring all stockfish (fish air-dried on wooden frames) purchases abroad to be from Bergen, Norway.
In 1528 of 440 registered fishing ships in England, 149 sailed to Iceland. Due to this and recent Scottish expansion northward, after Scotland lost the Battle of Flodden in 1513, Christian II offered Henry VIII Iceland and the Faroes as collateral for a 100,000-florin loan, though the agent was instructed to accept down to 50,000 florins. Henry was recovering from his 1513 campaign in France and refused. He refused again in 1524 because of the Icelanders executing Governor Tyle Petersen in 1523.
However, John Cabot discovered Newfoundland in 1497, the French were launching a western expedition for a route to China in 1523, and while Henry was busy plotting Anne Boleyn's death the third offer came in 1535 to pawn Iceland and the Faroes for a loan.
DIVERGENCE:
Henry gave Christian III a loan of 50,000 florins in exchange for Iceland and the Faroes as collateral, knowing it was a land sale. Greenland was known so he thought exploring and colonizing the New World would be easier with three 1000-mile legs than one 2000-mile trip due to scurvy generally taking a month to show at sea and Iceland being far enough north to be out of the Westerlies (unlike Mayflower's suicidal straight-across trip into the face of the prevailing winds). (Though Cabot's trip only took 33 days)
Other than useful sulfur mines and more good fishing grounds, these lands were not particularly productive and thus it was more suzerainty than sovereignty.
OTL: Spanish Armada abandons invasion of England at the Battle of Gravelines on July 29. They made their way to Ireland where many ships were wrecked ashore in September (67 of 130 ships sent returned to Spain, under 10,000 of about 24,000 men). English fleet stayed on station despite attrition in caution.
DIVERGENCE:
Armada attempts to raid Faroes for supplies. Fail due to winds driving many ashore and sustains greater attrition of ships than OTL, spooks them off of trying to invade Iceland in the face of winter. Of surviving crews, attrition is less due to raided supplies (59 ships and 9000 men survive). English fleet stands down after Spanish move northward into Scottish waters (relieved at them not going to Netherlands to resupply or pick up army).
OTL: English Armada fails to attack San Sebastian (near French border) and Santander (just west of Bilbao on north coast of Spain, where most of the Spanish fleet was refitting). Raids Corunna successfully but fails to take citadel. Also failed to take Lisbon and no Portuguese nationalist revolt. Sacked Vigo (just north of border in Galicia), then suffered an epidemic before Drake led a force toward the Azores (actually hit Porto Santo, Madeira) for a raid. Failed all strategic objectives.
DIVERGENCE:
Planning was more decisive and departed with less delay, but Drake still uses the excuse of not wanting to risk being trapped in the Bay of Biscay. Destroys a number of ships at Santander but many get away or were at San Sebastian instead. Raids Corunna, Lisbon, Vigo, and then Drake managed to capture five treasure galleons' worth of silver during a raid on Cadiz. Results indecisive but at least not a total monetary loss.
The Anglo-Spanish War ends with some minor concessions from Spain to England i.e. a couple minor Caribbean islands TO BE DETERMINED.
In 1528 of 440 registered fishing ships in England, 149 sailed to Iceland. Due to this and recent Scottish expansion northward, after Scotland lost the Battle of Flodden in 1513, Christian II offered Henry VIII Iceland and the Faroes as collateral for a 100,000-florin loan, though the agent was instructed to accept down to 50,000 florins. Henry was recovering from his 1513 campaign in France and refused. He refused again in 1524 because of the Icelanders executing Governor Tyle Petersen in 1523.
However, John Cabot discovered Newfoundland in 1497, the French were launching a western expedition for a route to China in 1523, and while Henry was busy plotting Anne Boleyn's death the third offer came in 1535 to pawn Iceland and the Faroes for a loan.
DIVERGENCE:
Henry gave Christian III a loan of 50,000 florins in exchange for Iceland and the Faroes as collateral, knowing it was a land sale. Greenland was known so he thought exploring and colonizing the New World would be easier with three 1000-mile legs than one 2000-mile trip due to scurvy generally taking a month to show at sea and Iceland being far enough north to be out of the Westerlies (unlike Mayflower's suicidal straight-across trip into the face of the prevailing winds). (Though Cabot's trip only took 33 days)
Other than useful sulfur mines and more good fishing grounds, these lands were not particularly productive and thus it was more suzerainty than sovereignty.
OTL: Spanish Armada abandons invasion of England at the Battle of Gravelines on July 29. They made their way to Ireland where many ships were wrecked ashore in September (67 of 130 ships sent returned to Spain, under 10,000 of about 24,000 men). English fleet stayed on station despite attrition in caution.
DIVERGENCE:
Armada attempts to raid Faroes for supplies. Fail due to winds driving many ashore and sustains greater attrition of ships than OTL, spooks them off of trying to invade Iceland in the face of winter. Of surviving crews, attrition is less due to raided supplies (59 ships and 9000 men survive). English fleet stands down after Spanish move northward into Scottish waters (relieved at them not going to Netherlands to resupply or pick up army).
OTL: English Armada fails to attack San Sebastian (near French border) and Santander (just west of Bilbao on north coast of Spain, where most of the Spanish fleet was refitting). Raids Corunna successfully but fails to take citadel. Also failed to take Lisbon and no Portuguese nationalist revolt. Sacked Vigo (just north of border in Galicia), then suffered an epidemic before Drake led a force toward the Azores (actually hit Porto Santo, Madeira) for a raid. Failed all strategic objectives.
DIVERGENCE:
Planning was more decisive and departed with less delay, but Drake still uses the excuse of not wanting to risk being trapped in the Bay of Biscay. Destroys a number of ships at Santander but many get away or were at San Sebastian instead. Raids Corunna, Lisbon, Vigo, and then Drake managed to capture five treasure galleons' worth of silver during a raid on Cadiz. Results indecisive but at least not a total monetary loss.
The Anglo-Spanish War ends with some minor concessions from Spain to England i.e. a couple minor Caribbean islands TO BE DETERMINED.
Do these divergences seem generally reasonably plausible (Cromwell's mess and the two Restorations are basically unchanged)? If they should be changed up somehow, how?
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