Seeing Red [Naruto]
- Thread starter Tekomandor
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[x] My defenses in general aren't on par with my offense, and in some situations a first strike isn't good enough.
I'm thinking a genjutsu done by someone with an intimate knowledge of the Sharingan.
We'd be fucked if we fought someone like that either way, but we'd be EXTRA fucked if they fooled our super-special eyes.
Not what I'm concerned with. It's the difference between biggest weakness and deadliest weakness, imo.
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Having the Sharingan on makes you less susceptible to genjutsu, piercing through weaker ones entirely.
If we're up against a genjutsu master able to fool the Sharingan, then not having it on would give them a far greater opening.
My point was that if we are against someone who can shut down our sharingan, we are likely boned anyway, and, thus, reliance on sharingan isn't a deadly weakness, because correcting it doesn't help us survive.
1) Planning works.
Planning is how Hidan got beheaded the first time, and how he got killed the second.
Planning is how Zabuza got maneuvered into freeing Kakashi. How Sasuke pushed Itachi to the point of using Susanoo for the first time ever.
How Hisana managed to arrange the last fight so reinforcements were available.We are not alone, and we account for our allies.
Most opponents don't need the Sharingan to defeat.
I'm not worried about most opponents.
And point of order:
Tobi couldn't fight as Minato's equal.
He came to the fight with an intimate knowledge of Minato's style and weaknesses, while Minato had never seen him fight or heard of him.
Still got punked.
Because the Fourth was that fuckmothering good, and exploited the fact that he was relying on what he could see.
2)Even back in the Warring Clans era, the Uchiha didn't simply dominate everyone else.
Hashirama beat Madara before offering his hand.
3)The Uchiha have been out of circulation for only four years.
Most of the people who trained to fight them are still in active service.
People remembering the techniques of Madara and Shisui are explicit plot points in the latter half of the manga.
4) The sharingan is a force multiplier.
It is also an obvious weakness if you can target it. For doujutsu users, depriving them of visibility is an obvious way to fight them.
We see Zabuza do it to Kakashi, and Naruto attempt to do it to Pain.
Tobirama Senju didn't invent the A-rank area effect genjutsu Bringer of Darkness for kicks, either.
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So it boils down to "we can't do blind fighting."
While I'll happily admit that we should learn how to do blind fighting, since it's a gap in our abilities, I don't think it's our "greatest weakness".
While I'll happily admit that we should learn how to do blind fighting, since it's a gap in our abilities, I don't think it's our "greatest weakness".
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[x] My defenses in general aren't on par with my offence, and in some situations a first strike isn't good enough.
I think that we might want to ask about increasing our chakra reserves. For several reasons:
1) Shadow clones. Shadow clones + shadow clone training (something that no one has though of as of yet, and something we can pull off thanks to Naruto) + sharingan using clones = rapid progress.
2) Senjutsu - to even think about senjutsu, if I recall correctly, we have to have lots of stamina and chakra.
3) Chakra being a general godstat.
2) Are you seriously using Hashirama as an example? See my point one. Thinking about that level of combat is premature. Especially when answering the question posed.
3-4) Depriving anyone of visibility is an obvious way to fight them. And it's far harder to deprive sharingan of visibility (we can track people through walls, remember? unless this is my brain fart right now) than normal eyes. And yet not all ninjas are adept in blind fighting, and yet they are still effective as ninjas.
Bringer of Darkness is an A-rank super-technique created and used by a kage for a reason. It's not one of the academy three. And, again, it's just as, if not more, effective against non-sharingan ninja as it is against sharingan using ninja.
1) Shadow clones. Shadow clones + shadow clone training (something that no one has though of as of yet, and something we can pull off thanks to Naruto) + sharingan using clones = rapid progress.
2) Senjutsu - to even think about senjutsu, if I recall correctly, we have to have lots of stamina and chakra.
3) Chakra being a general godstat.
1) Planning has limits, and no matter how we plan, at our current level people who can shut down our sharingan will punk us anyway.
2) Are you seriously using Hashirama as an example? See my point one. Thinking about that level of combat is premature. Especially when answering the question posed.
3-4) Depriving anyone of visibility is an obvious way to fight them. And it's far harder to deprive sharingan of visibility (we can track people through walls, remember? unless this is my brain fart right now) than normal eyes. And yet not all ninjas are adept in blind fighting, and yet they are still effective as ninjas.
Bringer of Darkness is an A-rank super-technique created and used by a kage for a reason. It's not one of the academy three. And, again, it's just as, if not more, effective against non-sharingan ninja as it is against sharingan using ninja.
It's more the attitude of reliance on the Sharingan's...invulnerability, that gets the unwary killed.
Almost got Sasuke killed against Deidara, because dude saw chakra channels in a clone and assumed it was the man himself.
Because he assumed that he could genjutsu Deidara with the Sharingan.
Got Danzo killed, because he failed to notice when Sasuke made him miscount his sharingan.
Would have gotten Madara killed as well, if he hadn't been able to go Rinnegan after Gaara punked him.
Pretty sure Bringer of Darkness was optimized for effectiveness against doujutsu users as well, given who invented it.
While I certainly agree that over reliance on the Sharingan is a bad Idea I think we are far more likely to get killed though Hisana's complete and utter lack of any defensive ability outside of "kill them first" then someone exploiting some weakness* in the Sharingan that may or may not exist.
*By which I mean something that doesn't work just as well on ninja without the Sharingan.
*By which I mean something that doesn't work just as well on ninja without the Sharingan.
1) Of course planning has limits.
So does the sharingan. That's the whole point of worrying about relying on it.
2) Damn right I'm using Hashirama.
Have you looked at the potential hostiles on our char sheet? The people we're training against?
The very first C-rank in canon involved Zabuza throwing A-rank jutsu about, and Haku popping a bloodline.
3)No it isn't
We track people through walls by chakra sensing.
The Sharingan can't actually see through solid obstructions to the best of my knowledge.
Furthermore, we are not most ninja, our enemies are not going to be most ninja.
Look at the fight we just survived.
Do you think most ninja can reverse-summon well over twenty shinobi?
4)Bringer of Darkness is precisely the sort of thing we need to worry about.
The Sharingan has been about for at least 70 years.
Bringer of Darkness is not going to be the only technique in people's vaults.
Alright, I'll bite.
What defensive abilities did Kakashi have in canon? He's the archetypical Sharingan user, and the one we saw the most of.
What of Itachi? What did he have besides the Mangy Eye?
Or Madara?
Tobi hit the jackpot when his Sharingan came with a phasing function.
Techniques that apply to defense are rare, and often unique.
It's a general rule of the Narutoverse.
This isn't a armor and shield universe; offense markedly trumps defense.
Think of it as ninja being jet aircraft; you can't armor them enough to take a hit, as a general rule. Speed and sight and kill the other guy first.
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Clones, mastery of substitution beyond what we have, grnjutsu to confuse the enemy, overwhelming first strike capability, superior spèed, mastery of taijutsu, chakra flow technique allowing him to block Zabuza's sword with a kunai.
Ninjas often rely on "don't get hit" types of defences, but those are still defensive techniques.
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- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
I read an interesting comment somewhere (iirc, in one of @SixPerfections "Walk on the Moon" threads) that high-level defensive techniques are something all the S-Classers we saw had in common that set them apart.
Like... Hidan. Kakuzu. Konan. Sasori. Zetsu. Obito. You can't kill any of those by cutting them with a sword.
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Sharkface and Itachi? Itachi seemed to get by on near Aizen levels of Keikaku and Sharkface just seemed to power through everything with sheer chakra. Deidara doesn't seem to have much either, he's got fly away and if you're generous the that micro explosion thingy can force people to make space.
Which merely makes it a real problem we need to continue working on, instead of "My eyeball mk2 is a vulnerability" trend I am seeing a lot in this discussion.
On related note, although attack techniques are dominant, Kakashi used a stone-wall at very least in his battle with Obito. I guess, blocking a technique with another technique is a viable option, but we lack energy to do that freely at this point.
Great Greedy Guts
Ceterum censeo Vigilam esse delendam.
1) But how do we rely on it, though? That's the thing that isn't being answered here. It's a benefit we haven't trained to do without, but it's not like we're busting out Chidori-style "Sharingan or bust" moves, either?
2) Right, but a genin saying "this could be a problem if I have to fight a Kage-level ninja" isn't being realistic in their assessment of their abilities. That's why I included it in a sub-vote of the main one, because it's something to avoid going forward but isn't the biggest problem Hisana has now.
Kakashi has little-to-no reason to think we need to immediately prepare for fighting, say, Madara.
4) And? We don't rely on it entirely yet. It's not the only technique in our vault, either.
Also, between a lack of defensive options and low stamina, we're basically a first-strike focused fighter. Anyone capable of teching out of the Sharingan is likely able to just avoid/block our opening salvo and hit us while we're recovering. Certainly all the big names are. Training to not depend on the Sharingan won't fix that. Training to have some defence and/or ability to fight at full power after an opening attack will.
And, again, he's asking us based on things right now, not based on thing in the future. So far? Sharingan hasn't been a problem. Lack of defensive ability/endurance? Has.
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I'll note that as a fairly talented sensor (we sensed what was up with Sakura at quite a distance), we're actually in a better position to deal with blind-fighting than, say, Naruto or Sasuke.
None of those are defensive techniques.
At best you might argue they are dual-use, and even that's specious.
I mean, overwhelming first strike?
Itachi. Kisame. Deidara. Nagato. Madara.
Any of those guys could have been stabbed to death.
Sasori was actually killed with a sword through the heart. Hidan got himself beheaded and rendered ineffective.
Dunno what killed Konan.
Obito phased in and out; speed and timing was key, but you could do it. Minato pulled it off, even though he did have advantages.
Kakuzu you'd have to kill repeatedly, which is a tall order, but possible.
Zetsu is the one fucker on that list who a sword would be completely ineffective against.
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- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Nagato didn't fight in person, instead using semi-replaceable Paths. Madara was an Edo Tensei - he regenerated from dropping a hugeass rock on his own head, you'll recall. Hashirama had the Rashumon gates, and used Mokuton to form barriers and deflect attacks in combat.
Orochimaru had his Shed Skin technique and in general made an art out of being impossible to totally stamp out.
Even Minato used the FTG extensively as a perfect defense.
And everyone on my list was a puzzle boss - unless you figured out the gimmick, you couldn't put them down for good.
I'll grant you Itachi, Kisame, and Deidara - it's not a perfect law - but it's clear defensive techniques are more prevalent in the highest tiers of the shinobi world than in the lower levels.
Orochimaru had his Shed Skin technique and in general made an art out of being impossible to totally stamp out.
Even Minato used the FTG extensively as a perfect defense.
And everyone on my list was a puzzle boss - unless you figured out the gimmick, you couldn't put them down for good.
I'll grant you Itachi, Kisame, and Deidara - it's not a perfect law - but it's clear defensive techniques are more prevalent in the highest tiers of the shinobi world than in the lower levels.
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Konan died from Tsukuyumi shenanigans.