This also implies (since it's a "kekkei tota", which is supposed to be an advanced kekkei genkai) that other combination elements can be used without being born into it; this is further supported by Ninja Clash in the Land of Snow, where the Land of Snow ninja (and Kakashi) use Hyoton*. If that's the case, given that almost nobody does that, my conclusion is that the genetic part of elemental kekkei genkai basically handles the elemental transformation for them, and using the techniques without that requires effectively doing three or more transformations (the two base elements and the combination element) at once - which is impractical for almost anyone else.
What?! Kakashi used Ice Release?!

But Kakashi used Haku and his Ice Element as an example of Combined Chakra Transformation and said that he could not do it. Furthermore, Kakashi Chakra nature is Lightning, and that in not even one of the two elements required for the Ice release (Water and Wind)

On the other hand, if that is true Hisana may be able to do the same thing. Imagine how awesome would be the combination of Sharingan, Sage Mode, and any Combined Chakra Transformation...
 
If any combined element justu is learnable by Hisana, it's Scorch release. That said, there's a number of assumptions there, starting with the belief that she inherited the Uchiha Fire affinity at all. She is a half-blood, after all, and that she lucked out enough to awaken the Sharingan doesn't mean she got the rest.
 
If any combined element justu is learnable by Hisana, it's Scorch release. That said, there's a number of assumptions there, starting with the belief that she inherited the Uchiha Fire affinity at all. She is a half-blood, after all, and that she lucked out enough to awaken the Sharingan doesn't mean she got the rest.
That is exactly what I thought, but given that we know that there were civilians married into the Uchiha clan, the fact that she is a half-blood Uchiha doesn´t seem so relevant to me.

But I think that we won´t know if Hisana chakra also has fire nature until we get an A or even an S in the ninjutsu category (other categories may be the chakra control or the chakra amount)
 
What?! Kakashi used Ice Release?!

But Kakashi used Haku and his Ice Element as an example of Combined Chakra Transformation and said that he could not do it. Furthermore, Kakashi Chakra nature is Lightning, and that in not even one of the two elements required for the Ice release (Water and Wind)

On the other hand, if that is true Hisana may be able to do the same thing. Imagine how awesome would be the combination of Sharingan, Sage Mode, and any Combined Chakra Transformation...
Yeah, he did.
Just, uh... Ignore the audio. I couldn't find Kakashi and Nadare are using Ice Release: One Horned White Whale.
 
My understanding is that Dust Release is just an incredibly advanced set of techniques, not a bloodline thing. In chapter 525, Onoki says Mu passed the secrets on to him, which sounds a lot more like teaching obscure techniques than something restricted by inheritance.
This also implies (since it's a "kekkei tota", which is supposed to be an advanced kekkei genkai) that other combination elements can be used without being born into it; this is further supported by Ninja Clash in the Land of Snow, where the Land of Snow ninja (and Kakashi) use Hyoton*. If that's the case, given that almost nobody does that, my conclusion is that the genetic part of elemental kekkei genkai basically handles the elemental transformation for them, and using the techniques without that requires effectively doing three or more transformations (the two base elements and the combination element) at once - which is impractical for almost anyone else.

* The Snow ninja may or may not be using a different form of Hyoton, because they use pre-existing ice instead of generating it, but Tobirama generates his water to use the same Suiton techniques as everyone else so I'm pretty sure they're either conserving chakra or just worse at it than a genetic user.
I would agree that there is a difference between biological and chakra based kekkei genkai. We see that with doujutus, Juugo's enzymes, and Hisharama cells that transplanting biological matter can provide another these abilities despite not necessarily carrying the clan chakra. On the flip side I would not be surprised if its possible to replicate or atleast come close to reproducing techniques that rely on a unique manifestation of two chakra natures but there is a world of differences between capable of creating something in a lab and producing on demand.

Given even for Uchiha copying jutsu does not mean you can replicate it perfectly I feel that it makes sense that the Uchiha did not become known for stealing chakra based kekkei genkai. There is tons of examples of techniques that are awesome enough yet even people that Orochimaru seem to not use and it can't be that their too good for the technique rather more likely its just not efficient for them.
 
What?! Kakashi used Ice Release?!

But Kakashi used Haku and his Ice Element as an example of Combined Chakra Transformation and said that he could not do it. Furthermore, Kakashi Chakra nature is Lightning, and that in not even one of the two elements required for the Ice release (Water and Wind)

On the other hand, if that is true Hisana may be able to do the same thing. Imagine how awesome would be the combination of Sharingan, Sage Mode, and any Combined Chakra Transformation...

Different kind of ice release i think. Those ice release ninja were controlling pre-existing natural ice, whilst Haku could create ice from nothing.
 
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Different kind of ice release i think. Those ice release ninja were controlling pre-existing natural ice, whilst Haku could create ice from nothing.
Ice Release is Ice Release, just like Water Release is Water Release. Tobirama doesn't use a different kind of Water Release despite his ability to generate the water being a notable trait.
 
The ice release Haku uses is canon, and the one the snow ninja uses is not(because that entire arc was filler). Canon states kekei genkai cannot be replicated by the sharingan because it's genetics rather than skill. Sharingan copies chakra flow and handseals, not chakra. As for dust release, i'd assume Mu deliberately searched for someone with his affinities specifically to take them as an apprentice, and remember how Mei* had three affinities but never used a kekkai tota? Genkai's seem like they're relatively intuitive to use, but combining two of them is probably a very long term goal. Onoki is, after all, also quite old. I'm not quite sure about how the non-canon parts here will affect this though.

*Edit: Mei, not Mai.
 
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The ice release Haku uses is canon, and the one the snow ninja uses is not(because that entire arc was filler).
It was a movie, not a filler arc, and the information about how elemental kekkei genkai work is sparse enough that discarding anything because it's "not canon" removes a significant chunk of our information.
We don't need to discard anything, though, because:
Acquisition 2.1

About twenty minutes later, all the contestants had arrived on the field. Hisana had snagged a program and betting guide on their way in, and after a quick perusal she saw that whilst Konoha had the largest number of contenders in the finals at six, no other village had more than three. Sand, Mist and Grass both had three; with Waterfall, Snow, and a bunch of minor villages she didn't recognise having one. Presumably they were either never mentioned or from Filler. Given Waterfall and Snow's appearance, however, it seemed that whatever was "canon" for this universe extended beyond strict manga-only.
(Snow appears in the movie and two novels, but AFAIK not the manga.)

Canon states kekei genkai cannot be replicated by the sharingan because it's genetics rather than skill. Sharingan copies chakra flow and handseals, not chakra.
Canon says a lot of things, some of which don't quite make sense together. For example, Samsara of Heavenly Life canonically (from the databooks) will always kill the user. However, Konan didn't want him to use it because it would kill him while he was low on chakra, which implies that he could survive it. The other person to use it, Obito, did survive using it.
 
Honestly, i don't think we really need Scorch release. 'Simple' Fire/Wind jutsu combinations should be plenty destructive already, we just need the control to cast jutsu of two different element simultaneously or very close behind each other.
 
Filler and movies are equally non-canon.

The movies, filler and novels don't make things clearer regarding kekkei genkai, they just muddy the water. Not that the author is perfect and there's no plot holes, but non-canon just make more plot holes than the author made himself. Regarding that last part I'd trust the databook more than Konan's opinion, and if I don't remember wrong Obito's case was because of Zetsu.

It's not ''discarding information'', it's adding information from unreliable sources. And if bloodline limits were so easy to get, they'd be far more common.

All in all I don't think we should even consider genkai's unless and until Tekomander says it's possible in the first place.
 
Honestly, i don't think we really need Scorch release. 'Simple' Fire/Wind jutsu combinations should be plenty destructive already, we just need the control to cast jutsu of two different element simultaneously or very close behind each other.
Well, Scorch release is the logical evolution of our Wind-Fire ninjutsu combos, and it is arguably one of the most destructive element combinations of the manga only behind Dust and Explosion.

Plus if we want to stay relevant when things gets out of the window in Shippuden, WITHOUT the Mangekyou Sharingan we need every advantage that we can get.

Filler and movies are equally non-canon.

The movies, filler and novels don't make things clearer regarding kekkei genkai, they just muddy the water. Not that the author is perfect and there's no plot holes, but non-canon just make more plot holes than the author made himself. Regarding that last part I'd trust the databook more than Konan's opinion, and if I don't remember wrong Obito's case was because of Zetsu.

It's not ''discarding information'', it's adding information from unreliable sources. And if bloodline limits were so easy to get, they'd be far more common.

All in all I don't think we should even consider genkai's unless and until Tekomander says it's possible in the first place.

The problem with that is that we already know that there are things from the filler that are canon in the quest, so I would not discard anything until we have enough information to do so...
 
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Ice Release is Ice Release, just like Water Release is Water Release. Tobirama doesn't use a different kind of Water Release despite his ability to generate the water being a notable trait.
No it isn't.
What the Snow movie ninja did is to manipulate their environment, which is why Kakashi could copy it.
Haku creates Ice from scratch and has special techniques like Demonic Ice Mirrors and Ice Rock Dome, signifying that it's a bloodline.
 
Filler and movies are equally non-canon.
In this quest they are, minimum, partially canon. I literally quoted a story post where movie elements (elements from the same movie I cited) show up. I don't care what your opinion is of their canonicity for the Naruto series, but dismissing them entirely is an objectively wrong stance in discussions about Seeing Red.

Regarding that last part I'd trust the databook more than Konan's opinion, and if I don't remember wrong Obito's case was because of Zetsu.
How would Konan have an opinion of a technique Nagato has never used?
Obito survived past Zetsu leaving him, and was killed by Kaguya. The reason for his survival is unclear, but that puts the on-screen survival rate at 50% with unknown variables.
 
The problem with that is that we already know that there are things from the filler that are canon in the quest, so I would not discard anything until we have enough information to do so...

I know there's non canon elements in the quest, I was just arguing about how the non canon parts makes genkai's more difficult to figure out rather than less.

Also, maybe the faux ice release has something to do with Snow being in a country locked in eternal winter?

In this quest they are, minimum, partially canon. I literally quoted a story post where movie elements (elements from the same movie I cited) show up. I don't care what your opinion is of their canonicity for the Naruto series, but dismissing them entirely is an objectively wrong stance in discussions about Seeing Red.

I ignored that quote entirely as I had already stated how I didn't know how the non canon parts of the quest would affect the world in the post before you posted that.
 
Forgot to reply to this!
And if bloodline limits were so easy to get, they'd be far more common.
Currently, one theory has been presented about how non-genetic users can use the combination elements:
my conclusion is that the genetic part of elemental kekkei genkai basically handles the elemental transformation for them, and using the techniques without that requires effectively doing three or more transformations (the two base elements and the combination element) at once - which is impractical for almost anyone else.
Based on Naruto's experience when creating the Rasenshuriken, this is really fucking hard, to the point where most people would be unable to do it in practice, despite it being possible in theory. Naruto manages because he can spam shadow clones until the cows have come home and gone back out to pasture, but for most people it would be out of their reach and an excessive investment of training time for something with comparable results to just training one element and using that.

I ignored that quote entirely as I had already stated how I didn't know how the non canon parts of the quest would affect the world in the post before you posted that.
You ignored a quote in a post you were responding to?

No it isn't.
What the Snow movie ninja did is to manipulate their environment, which is why Kakashi could copy it.
Haku creates Ice from scratch and has special techniques like Demonic Ice Mirrors and Ice Rock Dome, signifying that it's a bloodline.
Tobirama doesn't use a different kind of Water Release despite his ability to generate the water being a notable trait.
Tobirama doesn't have a special bloodline for Water Release, it's just a sign of his skill (and the uniqueness is specifically in generating large amounts). We don't have enough information to state for certain how a lot of things work in the world, which is why my initial post used language like "this implies", "my understanding", and "if this is the case".
However, at least 4 of the 5 basic elements have no shown distinction between manipulating and creating them (Fire being the exception, because AFAIK there aren't any techniques that manipulate existing fire; the Lightning technique that comes to mind is Kirin) beyond the effort required, so I'm not inclined to accept your assumed distinction without more evidence.
 
Dude, stop. I posted a comment with information regarding the subject, my thoughts about them, then finished with a disclaimer. You answered by nitpicking about filler arcs and movies which didn't make a big difference to my point because they were both non-canon, then ignored my disclaimer to shove a quote about information i already stated I knew in my face.

My entire point was that I didn't think we should treat non-canon as fact because they include stuff that goes against the rules the author of the series has made, and we currently have no idea what way Tekomandor is planning on doing about that. Like you said, we need more evidence before we assume things either way. We can start treating it as fact when we've proven that it is, in fact, fact.

Edit: Although it's not very likely, we could still have a genkai even if we can't copy one. Because unlike the alien eyes, I'd assume the element gekai's kind of just randomly happened, natural selection style.
 
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Stealing Yoroi's technique and building around it ties into this on multiple levels. On the first, Hisana once again found an underused jutsu and explored it ruthlessly, stealing it from her opponents. On a deeper level, working in the direction of chakra drain lets her literally use her opponents strengths against them.

Because of the way that external chakra manipulation techniques naturally scale to the level of ones opposition, they're a natural fit for Hisana's role in the story and her desire to be able to alter canon - letting her affect relevant change on very high level combat while not needing to reach that level as desperately herself. Thus, in addition to being thematic, it's also a practical consideration for the circumstances she's in.

It will of course take a lot of effort before she can even do something as relatively simple as work on Yoroi's jutsu until she can channel it through a sword instead of requiring palm contact, but it's a path for her development that I'm very much sold on. And in the long run...? Chakra dispersing "Anti-Magic Fields" area seals fall into her "chakra manipulation" fuinjutsu theme, as would more directly applied chakra draining or inhibiting seals.

Imagine just cutting off the connection Nagato has to his Paths, or that Kabuto had to the Edo Tensai. Or encountering a hostile Sage Mode user (we aren't the only transmigrant, and it's one of the classic "paths to power" in Naruto) and being able to disable their balance of physical, mental, and natural energy with an applied seal. Insta-statue.

My only real complaint is that she doesn't have the Magpie summons yet, but since they're Corvids, even that is on theme.
We could also figure out how to make the Eight Gates less of a suicide technique with seals.
 
Body reinforcement? Lots of regeneration?
We could also figure out how to make the Eight Gates less of a suicide technique with seals.
We could even upgrade our Shunshin seal to incorporate bursts of Eight-gates speed, so that it outperforms pretty much everyone.
Seeing the state in which Gai was left after opening the 8 gates (he was literally burning from inside out), only Tsunade level regeneration could give us a small chance to open the 8 gates without dying...
 
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I don't think that Hisana can pull off a full usage of all Eight Gates without sinking an absolutely prohibitive amount of effort into that skill tree. Potentially, we can try and cheat a bit if we manage to crib a potent regeneration technique from somewhere, but I wouldn't count on it.

That said, even just having the ability to open the first few Gates, same as Kakashi, shouldn't be out of the question in the long run.
 
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