Section 9 (GiTS) versus Terminators

[prometheus110]

I just binge watched the entirety of Ghost In The Shell - Stand Alone Complex and can't get the idea of GiTS stuff out of my head, so bear with me here..

It's a few months after Section 9 successfully (if just barely) stopped Kazundo Gouda from couping the Japanese government, nuking a bunch of refugees, and starting the Cold War 2.0, and they have just received word that Prime Minister Yoko Kayabuki is being targeted for assassination... again. However, this time they've learned that the assassination is being planned by an unknown entity with highly advanced cyborg/AI technology, that its agents are capable of disguising themselves as other people under cursory examination, and that they only need to keep the Prime Minister alive long enough to publicly sign an international treaty to ban strategic military AIs as the threat will vanish after that.

Can Section 9 (which at this time is composed of only 6-7 field operatives) keep the prime minister safe from the following threats:

- 1 T-1000
- 3 T-1000s
- 1 Rev-9
- 3 Rev-9s

Bonus mode:
- 3 T-1000s and 3 Rev-9s working together.

 

[Ford Prefect]

Can Section 9 (which at this time is composed of only 6-7 field operatives)

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When you say this do you mean strictly the main cast, or do they have Tachikomas, their aircraft, operator support, etc? The Terminator scenario is somewhat reliant on the premise making it very difficult to get any outside assistance, especially given that the protagonists are often essentially vagrants. Even setting aside the capabilities of the Section 9 operatives themselves they have a lot more built in support and easier access to a serious arsenal.

 

[prometheus110]

When you say this do you mean strictly the main cast, or do they have Tachikomas, their aircraft, operator support, etc? The Terminator scenario is somewhat reliant on the premise making it very difficult to get any outside assistance, especially given that the protagonists are often essentially vagrants. Even setting aside the capabilities of the Section 9 operatives themselves they have a lot more built in support and easier access to a serious arsenal.

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I'd say the latter, but I'm splitting the difference somewhat by putting the main cast in a close protection role around a vulnerable target so they can't just bomb the entire site for a week.

If it leads to dramatically different results, I'm happy splitting the scenario in two where one possibility is just the main cast with their usual loadout of gear and the other is them + whatever support they can call in.

 

[Ford Prefect]

I think in general the Rev-9 is something that would be somewhat vulnerable to getting Saito'd, the Seburo .50 cal is a fairly standard weapon for him and seems like it would absolutely mess up the endoskeleton. The Rev-9's saving grace would be that it's unusually shaped so it's possible for Saito to accurately target it and only hit the polyalloy. More generally I do feel like the HV ammunition used in SAC gives them a pretty big edge. Even the M5 is capable of slicing off a cyborg's leg, and it's probably reasonable for them to have C-26As on hand.

In that way the T-1000 may have the distinct advantage over the Rev-9 due to lacking all 'material' components.

 

[prometheus110]

I think in general the Rev-9 is something that would be somewhat vulnerable to getting Saito'd, the Seburo .50 cal is a fairly standard weapon for him and seems like it would absolutely mess up the endoskeleton. The Rev-9's saving grace would be that it's unusually shaped so it's possible for Saito to accurately target it and only hit the polyalloy. More generally I do feel like the HV ammunition used in SAC gives them a pretty big edge. Even the M5 is capable of slicing off a cyborg's leg, and it's probably reasonable for them to have C-26As on hand.

In that way the T-1000 may have the distinct advantage over the Rev-9 due to lacking all 'material' components.

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It does seem to be in the middle ground between a T-800 and a T-1000 in terms of survivability given what we see in the film, though it's much better at social manipulation than either and could possibly get a bit closer before being flagged, inspected, and taken out. I imagine they'd be able to find it fairly easily using their tools once they know where to look since I can't imagine it'd be built to counter all the toys GiTS has and dogs were used to detect them (then again, dogs can detect thermoptic camo in SAC and S9 never pulled out counter-camo gear when it'd be useful, so it could just be that dogs are built different )

In regards to the T-1000, I'm not sure if the S9 team has anything on hand that could stop one without them knowing its exact capabilities first. Acquiring a powerful acid would be well within their capabilities and something we've seen kill one, but it's not a simple logical leap like shooting it would be.


Edit:
Actually, now that I think about it, I wonder if the Rev-9's polyalloy can stay seperated for long periods? I don't think it's ever brought up in the movie, but if it can then the team have a big problem since the skeleton could buy time while the alloy hunts down the PM.

 

[Arcus]

If we take the Genisys showings into account the T-1000 can be destroyed by concentrated acid, but it might not be an immediately obvious solution.

 

[prometheus110]

If we take the Genisys showings into account the T-1000 can be destroyed by concentrated acid, but it might not be an immediately obvious solution.

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It certainly wouldn't be your first thought, no.

 

[Ford Prefect]

It does seem to be in the middle ground between a T-800 and a T-1000 in terms of survivability given what we see in the film, though it's much better at social manipulation than either and could possibly get a bit closer before being flagged, inspected, and taken out. I imagine they'd be able to find it fairly easily using their tools once they know whereto look since I can't imagine it'd be built to counter all the toys GiTS has and dogs were used to detect them (then again, dogs can detect thermoptic camo in SAC and S9 never pulled out counter-camo gear when it'd be useful, so it could just be that dogs are built different )

In regards to the T-1000, I'm not sure if the S9 team has anything on hand that could stop one without them knowing its exact capabilities first. Acquiring a powerful acid would be well within their capabilities and something we've seen kill one, but it's not a simple logical leap like shooting it would be.


Edit:
Actually, now that I think about it, I wonder if the Rev-9's polyalloy can stay seperated for long periods? I don't think it's ever brought up in the movie, but if it can then the team have a big problem since the skeleton could buy time while the alloy hunts down the PM.

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The Rev-9 gets caught by a metal detector apparently so it's probably quite possible to pick it up, and while its surface level mimicry is basically flawless I wonder if the fact that it doesn't have any muscles and a weird internal structure might be within bounds for Batou's ranger optics to notice. This might apply to the T-1000, as well. Certainly it seems probable that most Terminators would look unusual on thermals, would have a quite different electromagnetic signature, etc.

I don't know that they can necessarily kill the T-1000 except basically by chance, but they may not need to. One of the trades offs for its advanced capabilities is that it can't just walk through incoming fire like the T-800. It's lighter and takes impacts, such as getting staggered by Sarah's 870 at the steel factory. So they can perhaps keep it at bay.

As to whether the polyalloy half can stay active without the endoskeleton, that's pretty up in the air. They seem to think crushing the endoskeleton in the dam turbine will work so maybe? It's less capable when split so while it's definitely a useful ability it might be inadvisable sometimes.

 

[Arcus]

In terms of showings I think the Rev7 could be destroyed by depleted uranium ammunition (edit: I need to go back and double check if it was the endoskeleton or the mimetic polyalloy that got destroyed), though that only tells us so much about the power of future war weapons.

Also assumes the Rev9 has similar durability to the Rev7, which might not be the case?

 

[prometheus110]

The Rev-9 gets caught by a metal detector apparently so it's probably quite possible to pick it up, and while its surface level mimicry is basically flawless I wonder if the fact that it doesn't have any muscles and a weird internal structure might be within bounds for Batou's ranger optics to notice. This might apply to the T-1000, as well. Certainly it seems probable that most Terminators would look unusual on thermals, would have a quite different electromagnetic signature, etc.

I don't know that they can necessarily kill the T-1000 except basically by chance, but they may not need to. One of the trades offs for its advanced capabilities is that it can't just walk through incoming fire like the T-800. It's lighter and takes impacts, such as getting staggered by Sarah's 870 at the steel factory. So they can perhaps keep it at bay.

As to whether the polyalloy half can stay active without the endoskeleton, that's pretty up in the air. They seem to think crushing the endoskeleton in the dam turbine will work so maybe? It's less capable when split so while it's definitely a useful ability it might be inadvisable sometimes.

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A Rev-9 would get detected by magnetic sensors, but then so would most people in GiTS going by how much metal is in cyberbrains alone. I imagine at that point it would become a question of whether a Rev-9 can fake whatever documentation is needed to say 'I am a full body prosthesis' when questioned, but that would require a fair amount of background info I haven't explicitly said they have. Also, like you say, I suspect that anything that would penetrate human skin would reveal its origins as something outside the norm in GiTS since it's bound to look weird in other spectrums.

In terms of Rev-9 survivability: IIRC, having a T-800 crush the Rev-9 into a turbine did kill it, but god knows how much energy is involved in a spinning hydropower turbine (which then exploded, if I remember Dark Fate right).

With regards to your T-1000 statement, I suppose it depends on the exact layout of the battlefield. They could definitely stagger it with the weapons they have and play explosive keep away, but I think if there's any sort of small passage in the area, it could attempt to evade them and reacquire the target. Across Terminator media, we see them make pretty speedy evasions when needed.


I do think it's also worth noting that we've largely been speaking in terms of one terminator versus all of Section 9 for the past while. I imagine that the situation would rapidly worsen for S9 the more Terminators are involved, right?

 

[Arcus]

While not included in the scenario, we know that the T-800 can be taken down by .50 cal sniper rifles. Obviously the T-1000 and Rev9 are a fair bit more resilient than that, though.

With the Rev9 what I'm wondering about are it's hacking capabilities, which are fairly sophisticated compared to Skynet models. Though that could backfire on it considering the opposition.

 

[Arcus]

In terms of Rev-9 survivability: IIRC, having a T-800 crush the Rev-9 into a turbine did kill it, but god knows how much energy is involved in a spinning hydropower turbine (which then exploded, if I remember Dark Fate right).

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Oh right, correction on this, the turbine didn't kill it, it destroyed the polyalloy and severely damaged the exoskeleton, but the finishing blow had to be dealt by Grace turning her power source into a bomb.

Hmm, would Section 9 be able to get their hands on EMP weaponry?

 

[BiopunkOtrera]

I'll be honest, I think Section 9 has this in a fairly large curbstomp. The Terminators don't really have anything that they don't, and there's very little tech shock on the terminators part, except maybe from the T-1000, and even then it's going to come off as "strange robot" rather than "flatly impossible."

 

[prometheus110]

I'll be honest, I think Section 9 has this in a fairly large curbstomp. The Terminators don't really have anything that they don't, and there's very little tech shock on the terminators part, except maybe from the T-1000, and even then it's going to come off as "strange robot" rather than "flatly impossible."

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I think you're overstating the case somewhat. The concept of an autonomous AI weapon is a familiar one to them and wouldn't be shocking, but a shapeshifting AI capable of copying the look and feel of organic and inorganic substances by touch would be a very unpleasant surprise. That surprise could, I think, be enough for them to fail.

 

[SerGregness]

It's been a while since I watched GitS. How superhuman was the Major, again? I know she's almost a full conversion cyborg, and I remember she's at least mildly superhuman from a few jumps and hard landings she did (I also remember her picking up a light vehicle weapon at one point, but that stunt blew out some of her parts), but Grace was able to at least temporarily throw down with the Rev 9 in close quarters and I feel like the Major should at least be able to match that.

 

[BiopunkOtrera]

It's been a while since I watched GitS. How superhuman was the Major, again?

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Almost certainly more so than the terminators.

I think you're overstating the case somewhat. The concept of an autonomous AI weapon is a familiar one to them and wouldn't be shocking, but a shapeshifting AI capable of copying the look and feel of organic and inorganic substances by touch would be a very unpleasant surprise. That surprise could, I think, be enough for them to fail.

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I think it would still be very tricky for the T-1000 to get to the PM, just because they're likely to be monitoring everyone in real time through their cyber brain networks. They're going to know "This guy is showing up onour encrypted channel twice." We don't know how good Skynet's terminators are at hacking because it's not particularly relevant ot combat with the resistance or in the 1980s or 1990s or whatever, but I'm betting that the multiple super wizard class hackers in section 9 can at the very least identify that sit's trying to spoof them.

 

[Renu]

Could the Terminator be hacked actually? The major's been shown to be quite good at that and it would bypass the usual defences.

Also, how much prep does the Terminator have? In the movies it's limited by earth tech, but gits is way more advanced so it'd also power it up.

 

[Ford Prefect]

It's been a while since I watched GitS. How superhuman was the Major, again? I know she's almost a full conversion cyborg, and I remember she's at least mildly superhuman from a few jumps and hard landings she did (I also remember her picking up a light vehicle weapon at one point, but that stunt blew out some of her parts)

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In terms of strength in the episode Natural Enemy she was able to hold an attack helicopter in place while braced. The scene you're thinking of is in Eraser, where Kusanagi uses Saito's .50 cal one-handed and empties it into a Type 303 exoskeleton at close range, but the damage you're thinking of wasn't caused by firing the gun.

Incidentally just before this you get a good sense of how durable her braincase is, when Gayle, the Narcotics Suppression Squad team leader who is operating the Type 303, steps on her head and embeds it halfway into the road.