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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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I wouldn't be too opposed to just sort of....distributing some of our "lesser" works to relatively anonymous dwarfs. Let them go make their own legends with them. It's a pretty Runesmith thing to do, and plays into our Gift Giver legend well, if a bunch of notable dwarf warriors get their start with a finely crafted piece gifted to them by Snorri. And it could be a good way to test for combos and stuff anyways, for when we want to build a weapon or armour out of something more precious or finite, like Adamant.

Random dwarfs start finding masterfully made, unmarked axes and hammers in their homes when they wake up.

The lucky dwarfs are completely baffled, torn between fortifying their homes further to prevent breaking and entering, and leaving their best stonebread and a cask of good ale out, hoping to entice the mysterious craftsman to come back.

:V
 
You mean like if once a year Snorri gave out toys to all the little beardlings, and in his spare time he made prosthetics for war veterans?
Just because its not getting spotlighted doesn't mean its not happening.

And besides Snorri asking Otrek to hold a tournament so that he can give out prizes (or whatever the narrative justification ends up being) isn't engaging with the civic side of the hold, its dictating it.
If Otrek came to us and asked us to prepare prizes for the drinking contest, the 100 m tunnel, rocktoss, the eating contest and a beardling brawl as part of the centenary anniversary celebrations, that would be engagement because it goes both ways.

The point of my idea wasn't upgrade the gear of these apprentices, it was "Justify using a set creation to experiment while closing that plot thread and getting interesting story moments." I don't think his apprentices sitting him down to say you're really not dealing with grief well is any worse a way for what I proposed to end than them actually accepting them.

It's very strange, to me, that you dismiss Snorri floating the idea of a celebratory competition, and offering to provide prizes for it, because it would be dictating terms. What's stopping him from presenting the idea and seeing if the council of elders is interested, and why would the suggestion transform into the good kind of involvement with the community if someone else took the initiative and made it instead, and Snorri merely responded to it? And then you also hold up Snorri's toymaking, something he does completely unilaterally and doesn't even want to acknowledge to other dwarfs he's been doing, as an example of his civic engagement, which just leaves me even more confused. Like seriously, he hands out gifts at night when his intended recipients are asleep and then deflects when people ask him about his hobbies later, what sort of give-and-take do you think is involved there?

As for your own idea, that too has me scratching my head. Snorri making gear as some kind of displacement activity and then using it as a half-baked justification to more actively take part in the search for his missing pupils, because he wants them to use his stuff, just sounds bizarre from beginning to end. At that point you might as well leave the weapons in a barrel at a thoroughfare, write "free to a good home" on a note next to it and run off to search fruitlessly for the kids without an armoury along to slow you down.

Ultimately, I think there's a distinction between doing work in the service of a community and engaging with it, and would like to see Snorri doing more of the latter, and actively bringing it about rather than just showing up when he's invited.
 
It's very strange, to me, that you dismiss Snorri floating the idea of a celebratory competition, and offering to provide prizes for it, because it would be dictating terms. What's stopping him from presenting the idea and seeing if the council of elders is interested, and why would the suggestion transform into the good kind of involvement with the community if someone else took the initiative and made it instead, and Snorri merely responded to it?
Because thats not how spending favour works... I agree that there is a difference between doing work for a community and engaging with it for example. Thanks for providing this, its really helped me to put into words why I'm against starting a tournament but would be pro doing work for a tournament that others started.

Spending favour is Snorri saying "I want x to happen" and the council says "Well we do owe you a lot." and then makes it happen. This is doing work for the the community without considering what they want. They may even want it, but we don't know because its Snorris tournament, he's just getting others to do some management and organising.
If Otrek came to us then its the Hold's tournament and now we're engaging with the community.

Theres nothing wrong with wanting to keep your hobbies private, engaging with a community isn't sharing everything in your life. Contrary to your claims that The Gift Giver doesn't even want to acknowledge his hobby, its common enough knowledge that its his primary title, and when he's done it in an update he's clearly been in collaboration with Moira, this is engagement. I don't know how we'd frame altruism as give and take though, this is a purely selfless donation, done in coordination with other people who are similarly doing it for altruistic reasons. I suppose we're doing all the work with no feedback from the beardling community. However if the beardlings knew who'd given them the presents they'd be oblidged by dwarven culture to repay it, and a runelord crafted toy is probably worth far far more than the beardlings could ever repay.

And finally I think the point that you're not getting regarding my proposal is that I tend to read quests as stories before as games. From an entirely meta perspective I think the idea laid out contains potential for interesting character interactions and development and that is primarily why I'd do it.
I think this is just a difference between how we engage with the material and I don't think we're going to get anywhere arguing over it, within the current framing at least.
 
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How about some kind of festival, instead of a tournament? Or well, a festival with some competitions as one of the main attractions. Hand out some "normal" (by our standards anyways) prizes for most of the events, maybe with a big prize for whatever we'd decide on as the big competition, like a T3 or T4. Could even make it into a regular event or something, who knows, host it once a century or what have you. Though that might be pushing it a bit.
 
I have only just visited the thread for the first time in a few ages, but am i hearing DAWI OLYMPICS? Because that sounds awesome.
 
How about some kind of festival, instead of a tournament? Or well, a festival with some competitions as one of the main attractions. Hand out some "normal" (by our standards anyways) prizes for most of the events, maybe with a big prize for whatever we'd decide on as the big competition, like a T3 or T4. Could even make it into a regular event or something, who knows, host it once a century or what have you. Though that might be pushing it a bit.
Honestly if its once every 100 years in a dawi's life that's not that long of a time. So i would say for the big events tier 3 should be the highest reward since t4 is the level of crowning kings and stuff. and considering are weapons are tier 2 still I'm pretty sure for a non-runesmith dwai those are good rewards for the other challenges. however I would also like the rewards to make since for the competion along with age braket's. Because you cant expect a beardling to outdrink a longbeard. (I could see us giving tier 3 or 4 just for the long beards challenge rewards)

Or instead of warying about the tiers all the rewards could be tier 2-3 however they could be on non-weapons/armor. Like for a drinking tournament im pretty sure the one who one that would love a tier 2-3 drinking mug instead of a tier 3 axe.
 
Because thats not how spending favour works... I agree that there is a difference between doing work for a community and engaging with it for example. Thanks for providing this, its really helped me to put into words why I'm against starting a tournament but would be pro doing work for a tournament that others started.

Spending favour is Snorri saying "I want x to happen" and the council says "Well we do owe you a lot." and then makes it happen. This is doing work for the the community without considering what they want. They may even want it, but we don't know because its Snorris tournament, he's just getting others to do some management and organising.
If Otrek came to us then its the Hold's tournament and now we're engaging with the community.

Theres nothing wrong with wanting to keep your hobbies private, engaging with a community isn't sharing everything in your life. Contrary to your claims that The Gift Giver doesn't even want to acknowledge his hobby, its common enough knowledge that its his primary title, and when he's done it in an update he's clearly been in collaboration with Moira, this is engagement. I don't know how we'd frame altruism as give and take though, this is a purely selfless donation, done in coordination with other people who are similarly doing it for altruistic reasons. I suppose we're doing all the work with no feedback from the beardling community. However if the beardlings knew who'd given them the presents they'd be oblidged by dwarven culture to repay it, and a runelord crafted toy is probably worth far far more than the beardlings could ever repay.

I'm saying Snorri's toymaking fits your description of doing work that doesn't qualify as engagement because, in your own words, it doesn't go both ways, or so it seems to me. "This is doing work for the the community without considering what they want. They may even want it, but we don't know because its Snorris gift spree, he's just getting an accomplice to unlock the doors for him." And he does in fact want to keep his hobby on the down low. Here, have a quote:

"Not in a long while, nothing against it mind you, but my duties and other hobbies take up more of my time," you say with a shrug.

"Oh? Like what if I may be so bold?" she prods, seemingly gaining a bit of confidence.

"Cooking, baking...woodworking," you answer gruffly.

You were not ashamed of your toy making, far from it really if you had to be brutally honest with yourself, but it wasn't something you'd go about announcing to the world.

You are of course right that it's ridiculous to think the hold's inhabitants don't all know about it, but that only further supports my point, I think. Snorri wants to make the youngins happy and puts his considerable skills to use making it happen, but he does it by working for the hold rather than with it. Reading this quest I often get the feeling that, despite Snorri's exalted standing within the hold, he still sets himself apart from it on some level. I would like to see him get his nose stuck in and make things happen socially, rather than just industrially.

I don't think we're going to get anywhere arguing over it, within the current framing at least.

Fair enough. Godspeed
 
How about some kind of festival, instead of a tournament? Or well, a festival with some competitions as one of the main attractions. Hand out some "normal" (by our standards anyways) prizes for most of the events, maybe with a big prize for whatever we'd decide on as the big competition, like a T3 or T4. Could even make it into a regular event or something, who knows, host it once a century or what have you. Though that might be pushing it a bit.

There have been mentions of Snorri organizing a Runemoot, before chapter 21, where we got the name for such events. I think Snorri getting involved in organizing a lesser conclave, for some reason or other (Maybe aiding the Karag Dum reclamation?) would be interesting.
 
There have been mentions of Snorri organizing a Runemoot, before chapter 21, where we got the name for such events. I think Snorri getting involved in organizing a lesser conclave, for some reason or other (Maybe aiding the Karag Dum reclamation?) would be interesting.
I more meant just a normal festival the entire hold could participate in, that might let us experiment a bit and distribute some higher quality works. Trying to organize some sort of official Runesmith event on our own initiative seems like a bit of an overreach of our authority to me.
 
I more meant just a normal festival the entire hold could participate in, that might let us experiment a bit and distribute some higher quality works. Trying to organize some sort of official Runesmith event on our own initiative seems like a bit of an overreach of our authority to me.

Not within the north, i would say.
 
Somebody mentioned an anniversary of the siege of Kraka Drakk? Huh... That made me go looking into other stuff. And, speaking of anniversaries, funny thought; the Campaign of the Valiant took place on Turn 14, and the battle against Debra on Turn 24.

The Greedy one was mid-turn 3. The ending of the Siege of Kraka Drakk, Turn 19. (The troubles began about 3-4 turns before that, IIRC.)

It's much harder to remember non-mini-turn things though. For example, what turn was it when the North's Underway connected to the rest of the Karaz Ankor?

I remember the turn when Prince Gloin married the Princess of Karak Ungor, because I'd recently been checking when Snorri had the turn where he made the 2 armors and the 2 cloaks and the necklace all in one turn. It's Turn 18. (Which is when the Counter hit 3/3, and the Siege of Kraka Drak started.)

But what turns did our apprentice leave, and first come back? Same for what turn we took up Snerra, and when she came back.

When did we first run into a Storm Griffon? I remember the meeting was it just killing a Troll, being distracted by the shinies on us, but shaking its head and leaving; but I don't remember the turn. When did we first meet them for good? Give them their first torque of translation? (The First Gift Giving; that sounds like an anniversary!) And, what turn did Snorri Whitebeard meet the King of the Sky? For that too sounds a nicely anniversary-like occasion.

But you know what's coming up? On turn 27? Well, Turn 7 was when we finished Trollslayer and gifted to Otrek, and Otrek was made King.

The second centennial of King Otrek. That might or might not see some kind of activity or feast or party or something.
It may not change effect, but it also might. We won't know until we ask.

The wiki sort of answers that one, actually:
Rune of Forging
This rune ensures the war machine is free from imperfections and therefore deadly accurate. In order to inscribe it, an Engineer must strike the machine with a hammer and a Runesmith must recite a special litany with each blow, making it a weeks-long ritual.
I think the implication is that it happens while the machine is being constructed.
I appreciate that method as it applies to modern dwarfs


I appreciate that method as it applies to modern dwarfs, but it also feels a little primitive compared to what i've seen golden age runelords do. The marriage between Engineer and rune-work sounds good as it applies to post time of woes. But I feel like a more powerful or efficient method could be discovered/normalized in this golden age.
Huh, I actually thought it was really really cool and liked it. Why? Well, because --

"In order to inscribe it, an Engineer must strike the machine with a hammer and a Runesmith must recite a special litany with each blow, making it a weeks-long ritual."

-- it made the Runesmith sound and look like a priest.

He's officiating a ceremony. He's helping making it a holy craft or working, of not just Morgrim alone but Thungni too.

I really really liked the picture.

In fact, I would absolutely love to see more of things like this.

Of, well... Runesmiths doing more than just being in their workshop and applying runes to weapon or striking runes in battle; but of them going around and doing other priest-like stuff too.
There's no reason it has to be a tournament, specifically, nor would I be particularly interested in reading the detailed play-by-play of an axe fighting competition. But I do think it would be sick if Snorri could disperse the fruits of his labour in a manner that lets him engage with the more civic side of the hold, rather than working apart from the hold's population and very occasionally having community events sprung on him.
Well, y'know, these are Dwarfs...

It ought to be a drinking contest instead! :D

Or this being the north, they probably have some kind of Bardic competition too. (I hope Dwalin enters it. I hope Dwalin enters it and btfo's everyone else in it.:D)
You mean like if once a year Snorri gave out toys to all the little beardlings, and in his spare time he made prosthetics for war veterans?
Just because its not getting spotlighted doesn't mean its not happening.
I'd love to see more of that again too, actually.

...

Actually, y'know what might be cool -- seeing Karstah take up some of Snorri's habits or tendencies here. Of her showing up at some orphanages and leaving some gifts or toys. Or just, like, swinging by to an orphanage to tell stories or deliver some good food or ale or whatever.

Or, hell, I would absolutely love to see Snorri deciding to go balls to the wall crazy again, and making thousands and thousands of gifts to hand out to the children.
And besides Snorri asking Otrek to hold a tournament so that he can give out prizes (or whatever the narrative justification ends up being) isn't engaging with the civic side of the hold, its dictating it.
If Otrek came to us and asked us to prepare prizes for the drinking contest, the 100 m tunnel, rocktoss, the eating contest and a beardling brawl as part of the centenary anniversary celebrations, that would be engagement because it goes both ways.
I see I wasn't the only one to think about the drinking contest. :D

Story telling and singing too.

... ... Perhaps even Dwarven War Yodeling maybe? I'm sure if it exists, Dwalin is also an undisputed master.
 
Well, y'know, these are Dwarfs...

It ought to be a drinking contest instead! :D

Or this being the north, they probably have some kind of Bardic competition too. (I hope Dwalin enters it. I hope Dwalin enters it and btfo's everyone else in it.:D)

Sure, or you could do axe throwing or arm wrestling or regular wrestling or, hell, why not a goat-wrangling competition. Blue man avatar guy wanted to make a set of weapons and there's a pleasing bit of symmetry in awarding them as prizes for a sparring contest, but there's nothing saying you couldn't structure a competition around something else if people prefer. Or hold competitions in several different disciplines and put up one reward for the winner in each category.
 
[Crossover] Divided Loyalties Crossover, +10 to an RER Roll [USED]
Divided Crossover

This week had been exhausting for Mathilde, dashing from the capital of the Empire to various Dwarven holds throughout the Black and Grey Mountains. Couriering letters from King Belegar to those most likely to shift their position and provide much-needed reinforcements and supplies. Every dwarf would count on this expedition, and the more artillery they had to counter enemy mages the less they had to rely on the, frankly, anemic number of individuals capable of disrupting the casting of an opposing spell-weaver. But, at least, Karak Angazhar was the last of the holds for the week. The efforts to rouse the dwarven commitment to this expedition though had been a startling success. Dwarven reinforcements and artillery swelled the ranks of the expedition, and none wanted to be the last, or the least, to contribute something that seemed more and more likely to succeed.

Wolf seemed to be doing well, despite the stretches of riding. Her bond with the pup kept feeding her back magic, and she was growing accustomed to the increase in magic available for casting. It was surprising just how much easier it was to cast some of the more difficult spells in her repertoire with a bonded familiar by her side. Such was the bond, though, that she knew something was… wrong, the moment that Wolf decided to hide behind her and start whimpering. As she bent down to scratch his ears, she began to feel whatever it was that set Wolf off. A sudden weight to the winds of magic, an unnatural stillness like they were afraid to move of their own volition.

The epicenter of the phenomena seemed to be a large dwarf who had entered the antechamber. His beard was long, longer than any dwarf she had met yet, and the color of freshly powdered snow. Dressed in a rugged grey tunic with a red overcoat and red pants divided by a black belt, he stuck out as distinctly other. As if he didn't belong and was simply passing through. Given the extremely deferential bows and distance other dwarves were giving him though, it was clear he was an individual of some import. And, perhaps unsurprisingly, he was making his way over to her.

Smoothing her clothes and putting on what she hoped was a charming smile, Mathilde decided to meet the dwarf half-way. Upon getting within polite conversation distance, the dwarf stopped and Mathilde was able to get an appropriate look at him. With a face looking more like the rocky crags of a mountain, he looked truly ancient. Worn and weathered, but with eyes the color of a cloudy summer sky, which seemed to sparkle in the light of the chamber.

When the dwarf spoke, it was with a voice of gravel and deep caverns. Also almost indecipherable in Khalilzad. Something about a king and a gift? Nobody else in the room seemed willing to translate it, however, and simply stared at the both of them. And with that, he handed over a letter sealed in crimson wax before walking past her into the halls of the hold. The feeling of winds being crushed and stilled receding with the dwarf's passage.

Looking around, Mathilde noticed that everyone seemed to rush off suddenly to do… something. She wasn't sure what, but there was a flurry of activity that overshadowed anything before the elder dwarf had given her the letter. The one attendant she had been conversing with regularly before this did receive a pointed glance though and he seemed to get the message.

"The Gift-Giver gives his regards to King Belegar and bids you to give him the letter," the dwarf began, "and, while he did not express such, I would do so with what haste is available. King Belegar will want to know the Gift-Giver is coming. Now, please excuse me, various tasks require my supervision. King Belegar need not worry though, our Hold will not shirk the assistance we are providing for his expedition."

With a sudden flourish, the attendant turned around and walked deeper into the hold, and soon enough Mathilde was left all alone in the attendance chamber.

Glancing down at the happily panting Wolf, Mathilde grimaced. "Well Wolf, I guess we have another long ride ahead of us. Let's get to it."

Wolf chuffed in agreement and they began navigating their way out of the hold. Time to give a mysterious letter from a mysterious dwarf to a King who wanted surety and confidence in what he had available. Joy.

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King Belegar and his council's reaction was… not one she expected. Ecstatic and frustrated in seemingly equal measure. Ecstatic because this Gift-Giver was an extremely important dwarf that would be a rallying cry which other dwarves would flock to, not to mention the fact that the Gift-Giver was a well-respected runelord. Frustrated because now the expedition was going to be delayed weeks in waiting for said dwarf to arrive.

The exact meaning of what was going on was difficult to ascertain until Mathilde was able to corner Ulthar and suitably press him for information about the character of this Gift-Giver.

"How much do you know about the history of the Karaz Ankor?" Ulthar asked while nursing a mug of beer. And after a glance at her unimpressed face, he continued, "Right well, at the beginning of the Karaz Ankor the Ancestor Gods walked amongst us. More than mortal, but mortal dwarves could converse with them, walk in the same halls as them, and fight in the throngs they led. Snorri Gift-Giver is a dwarf who did just that."

"Wait, that would mean…"

Ulthar grunted, "Yes, The Gift-Giver is over seven thousand years old. Our most ancient records indicate that he fought in the throngs that Grimnir led, runed structures that Morgrim designed, and participated in Grand Conclaves of Runelords that Thungni oversaw. Throughout all of these years, there are also rumors that he talked face to face with Grungni and Valaya before their disappearance. He is one of the founders of Kraka Drakk, helped crown that hold's first king, and fought in the chaos incursion that led to the formation of the Great Vortex. He is, by every definition one could conceive of, a living ancestor."

"And he's coming here."

"Which brings a whole new host of problems," Ulthar mused. At her questioning look, he sighed but continued the thought. "What does it do to a mind to see and experience over seven thousand years of history? We don't rightly know, but if The Gift-Giver is any indication it makes one beyond strange. One wouldn't be wrong to think that as old as Snorri Gift-Giver is he should be the metric by which to measure what a conservative dwarf is, but he isn't. He also doesn't fit neatly into the mold of a radical dwarf. He just doesn't fit into any mold one could bother to construct, unless that mold is Snorri Gift-Giver. This makes predicting his wants and desires almost impossible, and that's a problem if you are trying to convince him to do something for you. So now, King Belegar needs to figure out where to put him in the army and to convince Snorri Gift-Giver that's where he should be."

In the quiet that followed after his musings, Mathilde could hear the thrumming of a gyrocopter arriving. But beyond that, she could feel something pulsing, like the heart-beat of a monstrous beast. With each beat came a pulse of power, unlike anything she had felt before. She couldn't even begin to fathom where the power was coming from or going to, and that was disquieting in a way she couldn't quite understand. But as the announcement went out that The Gift-Giver had arrived, she figured that there was plenty of time to try and figure out how to work with, or around, a dwarf as old as him.

A/N: Well this wouldn't leave me alone until I wrote it out. So here it is! I hope that you enjoy the read and possibility.
 
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I like the concept of Snorri joining in the expedition to retake Karak Eight-peaks in the future. I could see him being involved in that catastrophic war and fighting alongside and armoring the first ironbreakers.

Such a failure would surely stick with him throughout the ages.

I wonder if the Eight Peaks kingdom has been founded yet in quest? I can't remember if they've been mentioned.
 
I like the concept of Snorri joining in the expedition to retake Karak Eight-peaks in the future. I could see him being involved in that catastrophic war and fighting alongside and armoring the first ironbreakers.

Such a failure would surely stick with him throughout the ages.

I wonder if the Eight Peaks kingdom has been founded yet in quest? I can't remember if they've been mentioned.

It has. It's Valaya's favorite.
 
I like the concept of Snorri joining in the expedition to retake Karak Eight-peaks in the future. I could see him being involved in that catastrophic war and fighting alongside and armoring the first ironbreakers.

Such a failure would surely stick with him throughout the ages.

I wonder if the Eight Peaks kingdom has been founded yet in quest? I can't remember if they've been mentioned.
Eight Peaks is one of the jewels of Karaz Ankor, its definitely around and definitely extremely important.
 
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When the pair reached the ravine's end they found no path upwards, so together they clawed their way up the cliff face, their broken bodies screaming in protest. When they, at last, reached the top, the two dwarfs found themselves face to face with Valaya herself. The Ancestor making her way towards the land that would become Karak Eight Peaks at the head of a great train of dwarfs and supplies.
It's actually referenced in the last turn.
 
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