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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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@soulcake: I asked earlier, but I didn't get an answer. You were busy with the 13k word update so I would like to ask again. Can we initiate collaboration with other characters outside of prompts via write ins? Because so far, the collaboration and trades we've had have all occurred at events (Yorri, and the brotherhood).
I'm hoping we might be able to get the Thunderbolt rune Lorna used on Deb the dragon. (Also, I want to see what has her so out of sorts... I hope it's not the two apprentices)

One thing to remember is that to us humans its a match made in heaven, but there's a problem on the Runesmith end. The Rule of Pride means that making a bunch of the Runes of Prosthesis is something that will piss off the puritans and more conservative of the conservative folks, much like all the weapons we do and such. We already know this happens and our position on usefulness/helpfulness is clear, but this adds further layers, in that with long term we'd be doing it in the long term for perpetuity, which makes a statement about the Rule of Pride we haven't made yet, which I'm sure won't go over well.
Yes, but it's a logical extension of our "I will repeat rune combos if it helps the hold" approach.

And for the puritans, arguing against making fully functional prosthetics for dwarfs injured in defence of the hold is a pretty ridiculous hill to die on. I'm sure some of them will do so regardless. But they can argue themselves until they are blue in the face, they won't convince Snorri that he is in the wrong.
 
Hey fellas, Im gonna lock the vote in half an hour.

On the whole debate about Arm Them Literally, I won't ever give you a fail option outright, but when I said I'm trying something I do mean tryin something. Nothing in the update is an explicit trap option, it just changes probabilities of things. :^)
I mean, you've given us trap options before.

Just ask Debra about us making that Gromril spike, that's a big 'ol trap right there!

Also, goddamn, that was a close vote. Well tried, Valaya Springwater voters, I would've been fine with you winning as well. Better luck next time?
 
Could you explain where this happened?
The closest I can think of was the Rune of Light speech early in the quest, however this was clearly presented as something that only the most extreme conservative would take offense to, an "everyone does it because its not practical for everyone to only do one." situation. Compared to something as commonplace as not having to use a lantern this is hugely important to the hold, making massive changes to the lives of the effected.
Secondly:

I'm not talking about rune arrays in themselves here, but rather Snorri subordinating other runesmiths under him. It's happened a couple of times; once to make huge amounts of weapons, once to get shit sorted when the underway was being excavated and once again to arm incoming refugees. Here's an example:

Again the Runesmiths of Kraka Drakk are roused by the most legendary of their number, again the fruits of dwarfen labour are called and stored in grand warehouses to be bundled and sent off. For the Runesmiths who are new to the hold, immigrant and refugee alike, this level of cooperation is unprecedented. Many would grumble and balk at the madness of it, but when the world seems to be going mad and the things being handed to you are meant for the hands of dwarfs who were forced from their holds. To aid them in the avenging of grudges and reclamation of those same homes? There is still grumbling of course, but they make this one exception.

With the swelling number of fresh talent and the experience of the existing bunch, the Runesmiths in Kraka Drakk make the work of half a decade in three years. Churning our Runic equipment at a pace unprecedented, and will continue to do so as more and more Refugees come to Kraka Drakk as their homes fall. These Dwarfs are armed, now bearing weapons of Gromril and Wutroth, well beyond their capability or wildest expectations.

(emphasis mine)

Snorri's wrangled other runesmiths to get things done for him a few times; it tends to be presented as a super unorthodox thing that the others nevertheless put up with, because the immediate need is pressing, the arrangement is strictly temporary each time and Snorri doesn't actually dictate what any individual master makes, specifically, he just makes sure work orders are apportioned so the hold's total output is better balanced. This prosthetic project, on the other hand, would be setting up a more or less permanent structure that allocated work between participating masters, as part of the ordinary course of business rather than as a response to a crisis, with Snorri as the top dog providing the basic template other participants' work would proceed from.

Now, you might very reasonably object, it's completely unfair to characterise the prosthetic job as some kind of attempt by Snorri to muscle in other runesmiths' business or to centralise control over what the hold produces. And you'd be 100 % right: Snorri would really only be trying to set up a more efficient pipeline to match prospective recipients with his prosthetics, and maybe bring in his graduated students to help share the workload. It would be extremely benign. It would also, I assert, include a number of features which some conservatives would view with great suspicion, fairly or not. These include the appearance of other runesmiths taking instructions on what items to make and when, a single point of contact other dwarfs would be expected to channel their business through as well as close, long-term collaboration with an outside group (compare, again, conservative objections to the war machines guy who hangs out a lot with the engineering guild). A political opponent might look at Snorri's previous (repeated) emergency measures, then this more permanent state of affairs and say, ah, this is the thin end of the wedge. Soon enough he'll want to regulate some other field, and before you know it whole sectors of runesmith work in the hold are run by him.
 
I think a "you shouldn't give people limbs back they lost when fighting daemons" isn't a sustainable position for anyone to take. At the end of the day, it does come down to precisely that.

Our current Rune of Prosthesis is a common rune, so it shouldn't have much trouble in making it dead common. You can make endless combinations with it regardless.

This also isn't a time where the radical/conservative split is as bitter as in the canon times, I feel.

It's kind of like the Rune of Light dillema: many might not like it, but it's either making a ton of them or the Hold is left in the dark.
 
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Wonder if we could mollify the conservatives a bit by just figuring out a way to teach the other runesmiths in the hold the prothesis rune, so it is less is churning out lots of identical things, and more a bunch of runesmiths occasionally churning out these things. Could get around the rule of pride for the long term project. Assuming we can actually do that. Dwarves tends to be secretive enough on the matter that actually sharing knowledge of the rune might be difficult.
 
Snorri might want to expedite walking around with his armor if there's going to be grumbling about the rule of pride.

Now, the issue might not actually be the rule of pride. It could the setting up long term system of runesmith organization that causes the grumbling. Maybe it's not even a negative result and the problem just is negated by Snorri's super high standing with the north/Kraka Drakk and it nudges the door some more towards more runesmith collab in the long term.
 
Well, hopefully the fact that it's prosthetics rather than 'just' mere tools will make the difference.

Because, well, while in both cases a lot of things are being made... Well. A tool is a tool. It's a thing that can be used, that can be passed around (or passed on down the family) or shared. It's something... common, sort of. Tools are useful, and the fact that with tools lives and gold can be saved should not be ignored or overlooked. But in the end, they're, well, tools. (Admittedly, to the Dwarfs, tools probably hold a bigger significance, but anyway...)

But. A prosthetic is something personal. It is a healing or restoration of a Dwarf's limbs, or senses. It's not just something that lets a Dwarf mine or build better than he normally would. It's something that brings back his arm or leg. Or even a nose, ear, or eye. It becomes a literal part of the Dwarf.

So yeah. I feel like there's a slight difference in nature, in terms of what is being built and inscribed with runes. Hopefully, what is being built matters when it comes to the Rule of Pride, too, and not just how much of a thing is being built.
I don't think it will much, since the core point is the Runes and the idea of "making a load of Runes continuously", other than Snorri giving himself ammunition in the vein of "you don't want Masters to have limbs so they can pursue their craft? What nonsense is that?" and basically win the argument for himself. If others get involved though, that has room to become a problem because its shifting the context and remit of the Rule of Pride since a bunch of Runesmiths are agreeing that the Rune of Prosthesis basically doesn't count if they get in on making them continuously.

Yes, but it's a logical extension of our "I will repeat rune combos if it helps the hold" approach.

And for the puritans, arguing against making fully functional prosthetics for dwarfs injured in defence of the hold is a pretty ridiculous hill to die on. I'm sure some of them will do so regardless. But they can argue themselves until they are blue in the face, they won't convince Snorri that he is in the wrong.
I make that point in the post you quote yeah. I agree.

Personally I don't care about their opinions in this particular context, because its same shit different day and slightly worse for Snorri, as you note.

The run on effects though are what I'm pointing out if this becomes a big Thing that grows beyond Snorri. That I can see landing the whole thing in a much more widespread and troubling problem of some precepts of the Cult of Valaya tugging in one direction while the Rule of Pride of the Cult of Thungni tugging in the other.

Anyway, moving on from this topic, when Turn 27 rolls around we're going to need to finish Mind of Things and make a bunch of progress on Arm them. Then 28 rolls around and we can just finish Arm Them, and do research on that turn. So for turn 28, 29 and 30.

If we go with the idea of Turn 27 having:
-2 Snorri actions, one apprentice action, 3 progress from favor for 7 total progress into Arm Them and leaving it with 1 action remaining.
-2 Snorri actions into Mind of Things, finishing it.

Turn 28 can come out looking like a few things:
-1 Snorri action to finish Arm Them.
-Leaves 3 actions that can be put into a few things.

We can put 1 action into designing the Griffon Princes Armors. That would mean to prevent any icky delays we'd have to give over turn 29's actions to doing part 2 of that. Leaves 2 actions for stuff like Durazkul, which could be finished with the favor expenditure.

We could put 3 actions into research of some kind, like finishing the Spring Water with Church commission.

If we wanted to go nuts we could put 3 actions into the Princes Armors, designing them and building them all in one turn. Slightly less overflow overall, but we might not want much tbh.

If we do spend all of turn 28 doing research then we could use turn 29 to work on the Princes Armors. Could finish them, could just design them with intent to finish them on turn 30 and do more research, could just do more research.

My question then is what seems most appealing to folks?
 
I'm not talking about rune arrays in themselves here, but rather Snorri subordinating other runesmiths under him. It's happened a couple of times; once to make huge amounts of weapons, once to get shit sorted when the underway was being excavated and once again to arm incoming refugees. Here's an example:



(emphasis mine)

Snorri's wrangled other runesmiths to get things done for him a few times; it tends to be presented as a super unorthodox thing that the others nevertheless put up with, because the immediate need is pressing, the arrangement is strictly temporary each time and Snorri doesn't actually dictate what any individual master makes, specifically, he just makes sure work orders are apportioned so the hold's total output is better balanced. This prosthetic project, on the other hand, would be setting up a more or less permanent structure that allocated work between participating masters, as part of the ordinary course of business rather than as a response to a crisis, with Snorri as the top dog providing the basic template other participants' work would proceed from.

Now, you might very reasonably object, it's completely unfair to characterise the prosthetic job as some kind of attempt by Snorri to muscle in other runesmiths' business or to centralise control over what the hold produces. And you'd be 100 % right: Snorri would really only be trying to set up a more efficient pipeline to match prospective recipients with his prosthetics, and maybe bring in his graduated students to help share the workload. It would be extremely benign. It would also, I assert, include a number of features which some conservatives would view with great suspicion, fairly or not. These include the appearance of other runesmiths taking instructions on what items to make and when, a single point of contact other dwarfs would be expected to channel their business through as well as close, long-term collaboration with an outside group (compare, again, conservative objections to the war machines guy who hangs out a lot with the engineering guild). A political opponent might look at Snorri's previous (repeated) emergency measures, then this more permanent state of affairs and say, ah, this is the thin end of the wedge. Soon enough he'll want to regulate some other field, and before you know it whole sectors of runesmith work in the hold are run by him.
The fact that these items are customised means that Runesmiths aren't getting told what to make, they're getting told who needs a specific item made.

I don't know how we can argue about involving others when I have a very unclear idea of what this will actually entail, from Snorri showing up on every Rune smiths doorstep with a bunch of amputees and applying the full weight of an elders disapproval until they agree to do it pro bono, or if theres going to be a big list of requests up in the halls of Valaya and anyone who takes one gets a payment and learns a new rune.
The more permanent state of affairs (once the current backlog is sorted) might be something like the Valayans keep a list of Rune smiths who have agreed and are of suitable skill to make these and whenever they make a prosthetic the Valayans send the invoice to King Otrek as a sort of state healthcare.
Obviously I can see the problem with the disapproval strats, but the later systems are unusual however not really radical.
I think a "you shouldn't give people limbs back they lost when fighting daemons" isn't a sustainable position for anyone to take. At the end of the day, it does come down to precisely that.

Our current Rune of Prosthesis is a common rune, so it shouldn't have much trouble in making it dead common. You can make endless combinations with it regardless.

This also isn't a time where the radical/conservative split is as bitter as in the canon times, I feel.

It's kind of like the Rune of Light dillema: many might not like it, but it's either making a ton of them or the Hold is left in the dark.
But if the taxation is theft argument IRL is any example, then "You can't force me to take my time to make limbs" is.
Wonder if we could mollify the conservatives a bit by just figuring out a way to teach the other runesmiths in the hold the prothesis rune, so it is less is churning out lots of identical things, and more a bunch of runesmiths occasionally churning out these things. Could get around the rule of pride for the long term project. Assuming we can actually do that. Dwarves tends to be secretive enough on the matter that actually sharing knowledge of the rune might be difficult.
I've already argued why even individually we're not churning out identical things in a way thats likely to be offensive. Each item is probably uniquely customised and if they make exceptions for light bulbs, they'll make exceptions for limbs.
It seems I had misunderstood where they were going with the likely dissent and I don't think this was contested.
 
If we wanted to go nuts we could put 3 actions into the Princes Armors, designing them and building them all in one turn. Slightly less overflow overall, but we might not want much tbh.

If we do spend all of turn 28 doing research then we could use turn 29 to work on the Princes Armors. Could finish them, could just design them with intent to finish them on turn 30 and do more research, could just do more research.

My question then is what seems most appealing to folks?
I am okay with not having much overflow for armours tbh. finishing it also means that in case of emergency, they will already have them.

So i would be all for finishing armours on turn... 29? After we finish rearming
 
Another thing to consider is that until recently the conservatives have been pretty far away. Or at least the ones with enough clout to matter were. Not much they can do or say from all the way over in other holds. But now we have that Zornish runelord who's a peer, and right in the hold with us. The problems from the runesmith's factionalism are potentially a lot closer than they used to be.
 
The way I see it working in the long run:
0) Snorri and apprentices deal with the bulk of the problem by going Productivity, HO!


1) Snorri puts word out amongst the runesmiths that he will teach the rune of prosthesis and the theory behind it, if you put your name on a list of people who know the rune and promise to take on prosthetic commissions between your projects. Given Snorri's status, quite a few runesmiths are interested.
2) Engineers come up with some good designs for prosthetics
3) The holds and clans put in the gold in some centralized fund, administered by the Temple of Valaya. The temple uses the funds to buy prosthetics from the engineers and commission runesmiths from the list created in 1).

4) Eventually the rune becomes so common and widely know it's taught to senior apprentices, reducing the demands on Runesmith time to 'practically nil'.
 
I am okay with not having much overflow for armours tbh. finishing it also means that in case of emergency, they will already have them.

So i would be all for finishing armours on turn... 29? After we finish rearming
*Nod*

There's basically two forms of "less overflow" when it comes to the Princes Armors. We could spend three actions on turn 28 on the armor, which would probably finish part 2 with four actions and only an action or two of overflow (Depends if the part 2 takes two or three actions). We could spend four actions on turn 29 to crank them out in one turn, probably getting two or three overflow actions into it.

If we wanted to get max overflow into it we'd need to spread out making the armors over two turns. Which frankly thinking about it, I don't think we actually need to do unless we want to squeeze in research on turns 28 or 29 which is something I can totally agree with.

Another thing to consider is that until recently the conservatives have been pretty far away. Or at least the ones with enough clout to matter were. Not much they can do or say from all the way over in other holds. But now we have that Zornish runelord who's a peer, and right in the hold with us. The problems from the runesmith's factionalism are potentially a lot closer than they used to be.
That is actually a really good point.

The way I see it working in the long run:
0) Snorri and apprentices deal with the bulk of the problem by going Productivity, HO!


1) Snorri puts word out amongst the runesmiths that he will teach the rune of prosthesis and the theory behind it, if you put your name on a list of people who know the rune and promise to take on prosthetic commissions between your projects. Given Snorri's status, quite a few runesmiths are interested.
2) Engineers come up with some good designs for prosthetics
3) The holds and clans put in the gold in some centralized fund, administered by the Temple of Valaya. The temple uses the funds to buy prosthetics from the engineers and commission runesmiths from the list created in 1).

4) Eventually the rune becomes so common and widely know it's taught to senior apprentices, reducing the demands on Runesmith time to 'practically nil'.
Worth noting that in the options themselves, its described that Snorri and his apprentices are making the limbs and there isn't much reference to 1) or involvement of the engineering guild. That could be a next step if any occur. Which frankly they may not need to given Snorri's prolific production and having five active apprentices running around, three of which are Masters in their own right.

However this develops, I think its reasonable to say its going to be really long term.
 
I don't think it will much, since the core point is the Runes and the idea of "making a load of Runes continuously", other than Snorri giving himself ammunition in the vein of "you don't want Masters to have limbs so they can pursue their craft? What nonsense is that?" and basically win the argument for himself. If others get involved though, that has room to become a problem because its shifting the context and remit of the Rule of Pride since a bunch of Runesmiths are agreeing that the Rune of Prosthesis basically doesn't count if they get in on making them continuously.


I make that point in the post you quote yeah. I agree.

Personally I don't care about their opinions in this particular context, because its same shit different day and slightly worse for Snorri, as you note.

The run on effects though are what I'm pointing out if this becomes a big Thing that grows beyond Snorri. That I can see landing the whole thing in a much more widespread and troubling problem of some precepts of the Cult of Valaya tugging in one direction while the Rule of Pride of the Cult of Thungni tugging in the other.

Anyway, moving on from this topic, when Turn 27 rolls around we're going to need to finish Mind of Things and make a bunch of progress on Arm them. Then 28 rolls around and we can just finish Arm Them, and do research on that turn. So for turn 28, 29 and 30.

If we go with the idea of Turn 27 having:
-2 Snorri actions, one apprentice action, 3 progress from favor for 7 total progress into Arm Them and leaving it with 1 action remaining.
-2 Snorri actions into Mind of Things, finishing it.

Turn 28 can come out looking like a few things:
-1 Snorri action to finish Arm Them.
-Leaves 3 actions that can be put into a few things.

We can put 1 action into designing the Griffon Princes Armors. That would mean to prevent any icky delays we'd have to give over turn 29's actions to doing part 2 of that. Leaves 2 actions for stuff like Durazkul, which could be finished with the favor expenditure.

We could put 3 actions into research of some kind, like finishing the Spring Water with Church commission.

If we wanted to go nuts we could put 3 actions into the Princes Armors, designing them and building them all in one turn. Slightly less overflow overall, but we might not want much tbh.

If we do spend all of turn 28 doing research then we could use turn 29 to work on the Princes Armors. Could finish them, could just design them with intent to finish them on turn 30 and do more research, could just do more research.

My question then is what seems most appealing to folks?
Personally I'd prefer;
Turn 27;
Arm them - apprentice action
Mind - 2 actions - finish
Durazkul - 2 actions + favor - finish

Turn 28;
Arm them - apprentice action
Movement - 3 actions - finish
Griffin Prince armor - 1 action

Turn 29;
Arm them - apprentice action + favor + 2 actions - finish with 1 overflow
Other stuff.

We gained the Rune of Prosthesis through the Movement of Things research tree so it makes sense that doing part 2 should improve the Rune and while it makes sense that the Mind tree will as well we don't know that it does. It takes an extra turn but it will also probably improve the Rune even more while giving a safety net incase the Mind tree doesn't for some reason.
 
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Personally I'd prefer;
Turn 27;
Arm them - apprentice action
Mind - 2 actions - finish
Durazkul - 2 actions + favor - finish

Turn 28;
Arm them - apprentice action
Movement - 3 actions - finish
Griffin Prince armor - 1 action

Turn 29;
Arm them - apprentice action + favor + 2 actions - finish with 1 overflow
Other stuff.

We gained the Rune of Prosthesis through the Movement of Things research tree so it makes sense that doing part 2 should improve the Rune and while it makes sense that the Mind tree will as well we don't know that it does. It takes an extra turn but it will also probably improve the Rune even more while giving a safety net incase the Mind tree doesn't for some reason.
Perhaps. I will say I wouldn't vote for that turn 28/29 arrangement since it delays the Griffon Prince armor for a turn, kind of like what happened with the Engineering delay thing. Better to just put designing them down on turn 29 in my mind if it goes that way and we can put the remaining action onto arm them so that it gets 2 overflow at the end.
 
Perhaps. I will say I wouldn't vote for that turn 28/29 arrangement since it delays the Griffon Prince armor for a turn, kind of like what happened with the Engineering delay thing. Better to just put designing them down on turn 29 in my mind if it goes that way and we can put the remaining action onto arm them so that it gets 2 overflow at the end.
Uh... The Princes Armor has been delayed for a while now. It's been forever sense Otrek gave us the commission.
 
What's the sudden hurry with Princes' armor?

There's material research to be done, dammit, the Griffons can wait for Hearthstones and Silver Wuthroth (at least!) to finally be done.
 
Another option with this whole mess with violation of the Rule of Pride is just to ask maker of said rule. He is still around, and we do have eyes of Ancestor-Gods on us, don't we? So if someone'll try to forbid us from making more prosthetics, we can ask to be judged by someone who unquestionably knows is it right thing to do or not. We are runelord and we believe that this can change order of things not only among runesmiths, but among all guilds; we might actually see our request granted. It'll be a high stake and might change our reputation, but I doubt that Thungni would object, especially given that his mother's opinion will be clear to literary anyone.
 
Uh... The Princes Armor has been delayed for a while now. It's been forever sense Otrek gave us the commission.
We haven't actually taken it. Which is the distinction I'm making. The engineering one caused a minor issue of pride because we took the commission and then sat on it for a turn or more before actually finishing it.

Specifically, Runic Warmachines first appeared on turn 4. We didn't start it until turn 6 and no one mentioned a peep of discontent, then turn 7 and Trollslayer happened, then we finished it on turn 8 and got the minor bit about Snorri being unhappy.
 
As it stands we/Snorri should only be getting the most important commissions anymore or those that require his productivity.

We won't be getting minor commissions as there are tons of Runesmiths and Master Rune Smiths in the Hold and we also won't be getting every high tier commissions anymore as there are 4 other Runelords in the Hold.

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if commisions become something of a rarity for us.
 
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