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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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I have zero expectation of making anything remotely that size out of glimril.

But the Bloodthirster sized one without armor costs about same in adamant as an Ogre sized armored one, it's not that much adamant for what we are getting.
 
Red Bovine said:
Depending on the size of the Gronti the Death Star analogy just seems to extreme. Example being that if our new Adamant Smelter at the least makes 2 bars instead of one that would be 3 bars per turn. Meaning that for say something like coating an Ogre sized gronti in Adamant would only take 2-3 turns. So not that crazy depending on what we are making.
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Erm... 1.5 bars per turn. Unless you also think that the Rune will take less time to recharge.
E: Wait you meant including our existing smelters? okay 2.5 I guess thats a rounding difference
IronFist said:
Also an important thing to consider: it's quite likely that the T5 Gromril (as well as the research leading to it) requires Adamant.
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Basically a given I thought.
 
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LaggPlaguedDuke said:
Yeah it would be nice to at least get the next stage done just to get an idea of how many more stages it'll take. I wouldn't be surprised if the t5 mat took multiple adamant to make though.
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Sure, but how much do you expect it to take? We should be accumulating it at a decent pace as new smelters come online.

Unless you expect it to take like fifty bars of adamant to make one of glimril, it's not an issue. And perhaps, by the time we have finished the research, we may even be able to afford it.
 
TotallyNotEvil said:
Sure, but how much do you expect it to take? We should be accumulating it at a decent pace as new smelters come online.

Unless you expect it to take like fifty bars of adamant to make one of glimril, it's not an issue. And perhaps, by the time we have finished the research, we may even be able to afford it.
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Nah I'm fine with dumping 50 bars into the gronti. There isn't really anything besides it and Snorri's armor to make right now and there's not really anyone else around to commision something out of adamant for. I'm assuming the next 10 turns are probably going to be mostly research anyway.

I wouldn't be surprised if it took 5-10 bars of adamant for one t5 though. I guess it depends on what exactly the t5 does and how likely anything made out of it ends up being t5 itself.
 
I'm not sure if the debate about what to do with the Greedy One's Heart is still open or if it was already decided on but I'll leave my take on it here anyway.

I get that people in these types of Quests tend to go for the selfless route whenever it is possible but in this case I would argue that we would be better of using the Heart on a Rune/Armor/Talisman for Snorri himself instead of a Banner.

It's not really debatable that he/we are pretty much the biggest force behind the Hold and as such I'd rather we equip him with the best armor/weapon/runes available to make him as unkillable as possible to make sure he remains alive long enough to continue being the driving force behind every success the Hold has had so far.
 
RagnvarOdinson said:
I'm not sure if the debate about what to do with the Greedy One's Heart is still open or if it was already decided on but I'll leave my take on it here anyway.

I get that people in these types of Quests tend to go for the selfless route whenever it is possible but in this case I would argue that we would be better of using the Heart on a Rune/Armor/Talisman for Snorri himself instead of a Banner.

It's not really debatable that he/we are pretty much the biggest force behind the Hold and as such I'd rather we equip him with the best armor/weapon/runes available to make him as unkillable as possible to make sure he remains alive long enough to continue being the driving force behind every success the Hold has had so far.
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It's not decided, though last vote the armour faction had a major edge over the other uses of the heart.
 
NSMS said:
It's not decided, though last vote the armour faction had a major edge over the other uses of the heart.
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That's good to know, there are afterall other ingredients and runes we now have access to that could be made to work for the Hold overall instead of the Heart that probably would work even better.

Not to mention the in-character reasons I could see why this is a better option for the Heart. Afterall Snorri's clash with the Greedy One was of a personal nature imo. Which is why he should use it's heart for his personal benefit. Kohlek's brain on the other hand? Once we know what we can do with it I'd be all for using it on a Banner or what have you.
 
TotallyNotEvil said:
[ ] [Difficult] Write in, The Valiant Ancestor Golem Pt. 1: Since returning from the campaign you've been reflecting on Grimnir and how he fought, twin axes flashing. And now, He is gone. Grimnir's departure will be forever seared into the hearts and minds of the Karaz Ankor, of that you have no doubt. But what about His life? Unlike most, you are one of the honored few to have met Him in person, to have spoken with Him. You shall make a gronti to remind the world of His deeds, of His glorious life. The size of a Bloodthirster, a living altar of Pure Gromril clad in everlasting Adamant, it shall be powered by the Heart of the Greedy One to forever guard your people, much like Grimnir is doing even now.

[] [Difficult] Write in, War Panoply of The Valiant. Pt. 1: The gronti is done, but your work isn't. While its skin is made in the image of His warplate, such an homage to Grimnir would never been complete without His characteristic mighty axes. Two to wield in melee, one on its back to reach foes beyond the earth, made of the purest Adamant.

[] [Difficult] Write in, Regalia of The Valiant. Pt. 1: He is armed and armored, but more than a fighter, Grimnir was the finest general your people have ever, and will ever, have. A leader like no other, He strikes fear into the hearts of His foes, His brilliance unmatched, His presence unmistakable. A banner and a crown you shall create, at last, to tell of His deeds during the Coming of Chaos and remind stout dawi of who fights for them. What matters if the enemy is an army of Greater Daemons, a tide of corruption to blot out the skies and swallow the land? The Ancestors are always with us, and that's all we will ever need.

We should be able to more or less craft this without wait times from Adamant if the Big Smelter meets the minimum amount we expect of it. We don't need to go without Adamant Armor for ourselves to make it, but something this big will need a lot of power to run at peak efficiency. I believe there's no better use for the Heart, and it's a hell of a send-off for the Age of Ancestors. The plan is to make the KoTS armor on T24, our own on T25, Movement of Things on T26 and the Gronti on T27.

Like this? @BungieONI as you've apparently made a bunch of this, thoughts?
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The first write in and the approach you are taking is pretty much an evolution of of my own thoughts about a month ago so I have no particular issue with it as itself. As a Gronti in general though I think it carries some issues when it comes to using the Heart on Gronti in general, which I've enumerated before and will enumerate below because while I don't mind if we commit the Heart to it because I primarily care about committing the Heart to something over anything else, I think the thread should know what problems it will face if it commits to this course:

All Runes need maintenance or they will fade, Gronti are famous for it but not unique because of it. For the purposes of this quest soulcake has explained that we don't really need to worry about it. Here.
soulcake said:
1. Runes can be made to be toggleable yes.
2. It takes centuries to millennia but yes without proper maintenance or restrengthening a Rune will usually fade given enough time. It isn't a concern for this quest though.
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The centuries thing is presumably not a concern because Runesmiths are around to maintain the Runes and other such reasons like a lot of magic being around. And like it says, its just generally not a problem.

The tireless, unceasing aspects of the Heart are used by Gronti in that they will never ever turn off, but this is also the case with Armor because the Heart obviates and removes the above problem for anything it's put on. It's more of a fluff thing in this instance though in my opinion, since by all rights we won't see our Gronti turn off anyway in the scope of this quest and it is something important for any epilogue we have.

More importantly than the above there are the qualities of the Heart itself.
soulcake said:
You're sure of several things now:
- The heart has stupendous regenerative abilities. Being able to revive trolls, and thanks to previous tests, you know it only works on trolls.
- The heart confers a tremendous amount of energy, seemingly endlessly.
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I find it unfortunate that Gronti simply can't make use of the stupendous regenerative abilities because they are not living and thus don't heal. Half of what the Heart does is basically lost, which is not something we can really recoup. Most of what it makes use of in terms of directly relevant to the quest's scope is the tremendous energy the Heart provides.

Depending on the size (This becomes a problem at Bloodthirster and up) it will need a Talisman to contain the Master Rune of Passage in order to prevent it from sinking into the ground, if we want to use it go out on campaign with Otrek. If its just meant to defend the Hold itself and its nearby environs this is less of a problem, but also nullifies how much it will be used to just defensive sieges.

This next thing is that enough Pure Gromril for a Bloodthirster Gronti is enough to put an actually meaningful dent in Snorri's funds and coffers. Its not a casual expenditure like everything else up to this point has been.

Doing it on the schedule you set out also means only finishing the second part of Movement of Things, which may or may not be a problem depending on who is reading this and their stance on further research to try and improve the Gronti.

You've already enumerated the possible benefits, so I won't cover those. And like, as is already known, if I had my druthers the commitment I'd prefer the most is the Armor but I first started the Gronti idea and as I said care more about the Heart being committed to.
 
BungieONI said:
Depending on the size (This becomes a problem at Bloodthirster and up) it will need a Talisman to contain the Master Rune of Passage in order to prevent it from sinking into the ground, if we want to use it go out on campaign with Otrek. If its just meant to defend the Hold itself and its nearby environs this is less of a problem, but also nullifies how much it will be used to just defensive sieges.
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soulcake Said that's an issue at above Bloodthirster sized last I asked.
BungieONI said:
This next thing is that enough Pure Gromril for a Bloodthirster Gronti is enough to put an actually meaningful dent in Snorri's funds and coffers. Its not a casual expenditure like everything else up to this point has been.
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Not remotely a concern, tbh. More than worth it, and we should recoupe that without effort as we literally own the gromril mine and the wutroth grove and the hearthstone mine, so say nothing of how much we get paid.

Fjolla made, what, a thousand tons of gold during her journeymanship?
BungieONI said:
More importantly than the above there are the qualities of the Heart itself.
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EVA-Saiyajin said:
Indeed. It is a waste to not use ALL the aspects of the Heart.
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To answer you both, I believe there's something here that needs to be said: yes, it won't regenerate. But it's essentially the most potent machine the entire Ankor will have access to, AFAIK.

Ultimately, that means it can run at peak theoretical performance. And I assume an adamant and pure gromril bloosthirster-sized golem has enormous amounts of untapped performance to give, that humbler reagents simply don't offer.

TL;DR, we can certainly expect it to be stronger, faster, more reactive and all-around better than anything using a normal troll heart.

Comparatively, putting it on armor is like strapping a massively oversized engine on a car. A big bump in performance, yes. But there's not really enough bandwidth to make use of that much power, where the golem would certainly do so.

So much like the golem doesn't use the regenerative properties of it, at least as far as we know, the armor certainly wastes the other half of the Heart. A normal rune already makes you Tireless, what else is there to give?

No project so far uses all of the heart's abilities. The golem, IMO, just has way, way more room to use its potential.
 
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In my mind using the Heart on a Gronti is likely the most efficient use of it in the sense that it will result in the most powerful rune. However I believe the armor option is the most optimal use. Better armor means we can take more risks on the battlefield and while a Gronti would be good at dealing with mundane enemies against Chaos, our closest neighbors, what you want is a Runelord as close to the enemy as possible for as long as possible.
 
TotallyNotEvil said:
soulcake Said that's an issue at above Bloodthirster sized last I asked.

Not remotely a concern, tbh. More than worth it, and we should recoupe that without effort as we literally own the gromril mine and the wutroth grove and the hearthstone mine, so say nothing of how much we get paid.

Fjolla made, what, a thousand tons of gold during her journeymanship?


To answer you both, I believe there's something here that needs to be said: yes, it won't regenerate. But it's essentially the most potent machine the entire Ankor will have access to, AFAIK.

Ultimately, that means it can run at peak theoretical performance. And I assume an adamant and pure gromril bloosthirster-sized golem has enormous amounts of untapped performance to give, that humbler reagents simply don't offer.

TL;DR, we can certainly expect it to be stronger, faster, more reactive and all-around better than anything using a normal troll heart.

Comparatively, putting it on armor is like strapping a massively oversized engine on a car. A big bump in performance, yes. But there's not really enough bandwidth to make use of that much power, where the golem would certainly do so.

So much like the golem doesn't use the regenerative properties of it, at least as far as we know, the armor certainly wastes the other half of the Heart. A normal rune already makes you Tireless, what else is there to give?

No project so far uses all of the heart's abilities. The golem, IMO, just has way, way more room to use its potential.
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Disagree. There are many possible ways that that outpouring of energy can affect things things besides Gronti. More power , an effect on the Metal, etc magical energy affecting by proximity is a common concept in WHF
 
nexuseye said:
In my mind using the Heart on a Gronti is likely the most efficient use of it in the sense that it will result in the most powerful rune. However I believe the armor option is the most optimal use. Better armor means we can take more risks on the battlefield and while a Gronti would be good at dealing with mundane enemies against Chaos, our closest neighbors, what you want is a Runelord as close to the enemy as possible for as long as possible.
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I believe there's close to zero chance of Snorri out-fighting the proposed gronti even if it just used its fists.

Snorri might be hella tough in armor, but he ain't indestructible. The gronti is the next best thing to it, and has absolutely zero issues in hitting hard enough.
 
The greatest issue I have for using the Heart on a gronti is that the proposed gronti so far are nothing special.

They are just a bigger and tougher Miner.

And if we are sacrificing half the utility of the Heart (and a very precious half at that, healing is extremely limited for dwarfs) and are focusing on its energy-powering potential, shouldn't the gronti have some power-expensive special abilities that would justify using the Heart on it?

So far, an Armor or a Banner sound better, unless a more impressive gronti is proposed.
 
TotallyNotEvil said:
soulcake Said that's an issue at above Bloodthirster sized last I asked.

Not remotely a concern, tbh. More than worth it, and we should recoupe that without effort as we literally own the gromril mine and the wutroth grove and the hearthstone mine, so say nothing of how much we get paid.

Fjolla made, what, a thousand tons of gold during her journeymanship?


To answer you both, I believe there's something here that needs to be said: yes, it won't regenerate. But it's essentially the most potent machine the entire Ankor will have access to, AFAIK.

Ultimately, that means it can run at peak theoretical performance. And I assume an adamant and pure gromril bloosthirster-sized golem has enormous amounts of untapped performance to give, that humbler reagents simply don't offer.

TL;DR, we can certainly expect it to be stronger, faster, more reactive and all-around better than anything using a normal troll heart.

Comparatively, putting it on armor is like strapping a massively oversized engine on a car. A big bump in performance, yes. But there's not really enough bandwidth to make use of that much power, where the golem would certainly do so.
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I don't remember him changing the ruling on weight, do you have the quote for it by chance?

As to what you're saying about the engine metaphor.

As I see it the Heart basically has two axis of power or effect. There's the Regeneration axis and the Raw Energy axis, as we have all sort of discussed. It has enhancements to give to both of those axis. In the native form the Raw Energy was used to fuel the Regeneration.

A Gronti interacts with these axes by not having any Regeneration and a focus on Raw Energy. Or to put it how I'm conceiving of it, Regeneration: N/A, Energy: Pushed Hard.

Because in its raw form the Raw Energy was used to fuel the Regeneration, I think that much like the Greedy Troll, the thing that draws out its potential is something that uses its raw energy and the target of that energy, the regeneration.

So an Armor with the Master Rune of Unyielding in my mind interacts with these axes by having Regeneration and Raw Energy enhanced. So much like the Greedy Troll I am conceiving of it having Regeneration: Greatly Fueled, Energy: Pushed Hard.

Or to put it another way, I think the axes are where the main amount of the "room" to draw out the Heart's potential lies.

I will refute the idea that the Armor wastes the Tireless aspects because we know for a fact that the Master Rune of Unyielding has both Tireless and Regeneration enhanced if it uses the Heart. We know this for sure.
soulcake said:
Snorris professional opinion is that it pushes hard on the tireless and regen factors. No clue on what itll do to the steelskin aspect but like it wont get dropped. Either shifted or changes in potency.
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By this post there has to be more to give, more to enhance on both the Tireless and Regeneration factors.
 
TotallyNotEvil said:
I believe there's close to zero chance of Snorri out-fighting the proposed gronti even if it just used its fists.

Snorri might be hella tough in armor, but he ain't indestructible. The gronti is the next best thing to it, and has absolutely zero issues in hitting hard enough.
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Against normal foes sure. But daemons are more magical than physical and Snorri is more suited for taking out magical enemies than the Gronti.
 
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