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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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hey @soulcake
1)there are other greedy trolls besides the original one Snorri killed and seeing as they are intelligent magic wielding trolls how would there hearts stack up compared to normal troll hearts ?
1a)and how come we have never got any of new hearts from all the other greedy trolls that the throng has been killing in the background those should at least be tier 4 ?
Still getting normal troll hearts from them. You'd need a particularly old Greedy Troll to bump up the heart a tier, but Otrek has been rather thorough in his campaigns.
Pun intended?



I get the impression that we're not going to get much if anything on how the Heart will work as a reagent in MUnyielding, but could you at least tell us: What does Snorri generally think might happen if he used the Heart instead of Stonehorn Horns in MUnyielding? Does he have any theories as to possible results if he used both?

Snorris professional opinion is that it pushes hard on the tireless and regen factors. No clue on what itll do to the steelskin aspect but like it wont get dropped. Either shifted or changes in potency.
 
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I can't find our personal equipment the tap in the loot vault looks blank.

As for the heart I didn't see anything about how the heart would interact with the various runes that use magical energy for example the rune of spell eating or the ancestral ageas banner.

Is that not a thing, The ability to constantly pump out magic from the heart and the ability to transform magic into bonus's seems like they would match up quite well especially given that anti magic is a tune lords main specialty.
 
1. Yes, but prepare for wacky hijinks. Theres a reason why Runelords and Runesmiths stick with 1 reagent.
What sort wacky hijinks happen from using multiple reagents on a single rune? I'm not asking for the specifics of what would occur in this case, to be clear, I'm just curious about what can happen and the possible outcomes Snorri might know about.
 
What sort wacky hijinks happen from using multiple reagents on a single rune? I'm not asking for the specifics of what would occur in this case, to be clear, I'm just curious about what can happen and the possible outcomes Snorri might know about.
Imagine that to prevent things from getting crazy with the min maxing and making the crafting system even more complex than it already is, letting people be able to use more regents for runes may lead to things like people using 6 or even 9 different regents for creations and the QM would need to take into account how they would all affect each other, that in most cases they have pretty negative reactions and /or make things far more predicable since they may outright interfere with each other. Which would explain why Runelords and Runesmiths don't use more than one regent for each rune. Unpredictable effects means that creating runes would be unreliable which would likely be unacceptable to Dwarfs.
 
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Last turn we started the griffon kings armor project, meaning this turn we're going to need to finalize the design of it at the very least, if not make some progress.

Here's the old plan for the armor:
Weapon Slot 1(Claws): Master Rune of Currents, Rune of Cleaving, Rune of Spellbreaking
The wind that cuts through everything, magical and mundane.

Weapon Slot 2 (Wings): Master Rune of Grimnir, Rune of Dismay, Rune of Cold
Be the tireless foe that strikes a chilling fear into your enemies.

Armor Slot: Master Rune of Gromril, Rune of Steel, Rune of Iron
The advancing tradition of dwarven metalcraft.

Talisman Slot 2: Master Rune of Spite, Rune of Lightning, Rune of Might
Repay each blow with a mighty bolt of lightning.

We've since gotten access to the Master Rune of Unyielding and it would be a shame to not use it for this. Yet to do so we'd need a new Combo for the Armor slot.

I'm thinking we have 3 approaches we can try when it comes to comboing it.

1st, we can focus on piling up on the defensive effects. Since all of the Master Rune of Unyielding's effects are defensive in nature, by adding the Rune of Warding and the Rune of Iron, we can rely on extra layers and types of defences for the synergy to fuel a combo.

2nd, we can focus on the way that all of the Master Rune of Unyielding's effects are about enhancing or affecting the wearer of the armor. By adding two runes that also are about enhancing the user - Rune of Might and Rune of Speed - we can hopefully get synergy that way.

3rd, we can focus on the themes in the name "Unyielding" and pick two other Runes that support that theme; the Rune of Determination and the Rune of Fortitude are good candidates for this approach.

Naturally, picking a set of Runes that use all three approaches at once would be ideal, but that's tricky.


Personally, in this case I'd go for the Rune of Iron and the Rune of Fortitude as a mix of the 1st and 3rd approaches.

Since this is only for one slot of four rune set slots for the armor, and the armor slot is acting as the defensive core that the other slots add on to, making sure the component armor slot runes still will function as an adequate defence individually should the armor combo fail is enough to sway me.
 
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Personally, I'd rather see a set centered around the master rune of blizzards for the griffonking armour. There's been a couple of them suggested but I think my favourite so far is blizzards/lightning/impact
 
Still getting normal troll hearts from them. You'd need a particularly old Greedy Troll to bump up the heart a tier, but Otrek has been rather thorough in his campaigns.


Snorris professional opinion is that it pushes hard on the tireless and regen factors. No clue on what itll do to the steelskin aspect but like it wont get dropped. Either shifted or changes in potency.
Okay, that works for me.

How does everyone feel of doing this for the Master Rune of Unyielding (Use Greedy Heart instead of Stonehorn Horns)? Personally these are the two qualities my desires have hinged on and what I've been focusing on in terms of arguing for this stuff.

Additionally for future plans I've been considering rolling the dice with a Theme choice for the griffon armor: "The King of the Skies shall fly above all harm as a master of snow and lightning." Really simple and straight forward conceptually speaking, it's basically meant to enhance the things he does already. Thoughts?
 
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Okay, that works for me.

How does everyone feel of doing this for the Master Rune of Unyielding (Use Greedy Heart instead of Stonehorn Horns)? Personally these are the two qualities my desires have hinged on and what I've been focusing on in terms of arguing for this stuff.

Additionally for future plans I've been considering rolling the dice with a Theme choice: "The King of the Skies shall fly above all harm as a master of snow and lightning." Really simple and straight forward conceptually speaking, it's basically meant to enhance the things he does already. Thoughts?
It's not a bad idea for a theme, but I'm not sure it matches him personally as well as it could do. From the little we've seen of him, I get the impression that the KotS doesn't fly above battles and enemies looking down on them, he gets up in their face, rips them to pieces, and eats their hearts. I'd be more inclined to something along the lines of 'The blinding speed of lightning, the crushing inevitability of the glacier, and the indomitable fury of the storm'.
 
Okay, that works for me.

How does everyone feel of doing this for the Master Rune of Unyielding (Use Greedy Heart instead of Stonehorn Horns)? Personally these are the two qualities my desires have hinged on and what I've been focusing on in terms of arguing for this stuff.
I'm fine with it.

Additionally for future plans I've been considering rolling the dice with a Theme choice for the griffon armor: "The King of the Skies shall fly above all harm as a master of snow and lightning." Really simple and straight forward conceptually speaking, it's basically meant to enhance the things he does already. Thoughts?
Not sure. At this point I have no idea what system determines whether a combo is made based on themes. Unless a theme doesn't necessarily equate to a combo, in which case I have...few objections, since I worry it won't take MBlizzards and instead just take Frost since in that theme it implies equality between snow and lightning, and a Master Rune is not equivalent to a regular Rune.
 
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It's not a bad idea for a theme, but I'm not sure it matches him personally as well as it could do. From the little we've seen of him, I get the impression that the KotS doesn't fly above battles and enemies looking down on them, he gets up in their face, rips them to pieces, and eats their hearts. I'd be more inclined to something along the lines of 'The blinding speed of lightning, the crushing inevitability of the glacier, and the indomitable fury of the storm'.
That is a really good point yeah. These Griffons are apex predators, in the sense that they get in there and tear stuff to bits with their talons and claws and beaks and they claim dominion over the top of the critter food chain in the region using those tools.

I'm fine with it.


Not sure. At this point I have no idea what system determines whether a combo is made based on themes. Unless a theme doesn't necessarily equate to a combo, in which case I have...few objections, since I worry it won't take MBlizzards and instead just take Frost since in that theme it implies equality between snow and lightning, and a Master Rune is not equivalent to a regular Rune.
Way I understand it, it's basically a case of "Make a roll with a bonus vs a DC" if that roll passes, we get a Combo. Also themes give soul a general sense of what we want, which helps. GM Choice is "Make a roll vs a DC". Now you're right, I think using Frost instead of Blizzards is possible. Not sure how likely it would be though, Master Rune of Blizzards is really powerful and what we're specifically trying to go for here.

This is partly why I like NSMS's suggestion. @NSMS, since we don't really have a glacier rune how about this instead: "The blinding speed of lightning, the freezing and unstoppable inevitability of the blizzard, and the indomitable fury of the storm'.
 
Okay, that works for me.

How does everyone feel of doing this for the Master Rune of Unyielding (Use Greedy Heart instead of Stonehorn Horns)? Personally these are the two qualities my desires have hinged on and what I've been focusing on in terms of arguing for this stuff.

Additionally for future plans I've been considering rolling the dice with a Theme choice for the griffon armor: "The King of the Skies shall fly above all harm as a master of snow and lightning." Really simple and straight forward conceptually speaking, it's basically meant to enhance the things he does already. Thoughts?

I remember being dead set against using the heart on personal wargear, but having meditated on this I've come round to accepting you were right back then. I think a heart-powered unyielding rune on adamant armour would be fairly sick; I may have some quibbles about exactly which other runes would complement it best, but the central plank of the idea is solid imo.

Not sure about going for a theme on the griffonking armour tho. I think there are blizzard arrays on the table that have a good chance to combo and would basically be fine even in the event they don't. Blizzard suits the big guy especially well and I'm hesitant about any theme suggestion that might leave him stuck with some blizzardless setup. I realise you're wording your theme suggestions specifically so blizzard would be the most natural fit for them, but if we have a clear preference for a centrepiece rune I think we should follow that thought to its conclusion and commit to an array. Trying to tilt a theme write-in so it effectively becomes "one specific rune plus two blanks" seems like wanting to have our cake and eat it too, to my mind.
 
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That is a really good point yeah. These Griffons are apex predators, in the sense that they get in there and tear stuff to bits with their talons and claws and beaks and they claim dominion over the top of the critter food chain in the region using those tools.


Way I understand it, it's basically a case of "Make a roll with a bonus vs a DC" if that roll passes, we get a Combo. Also themes give soul a general sense of what we want, which helps. GM Choice is "Make a roll vs a DC". Now you're right, I think using Frost instead of Blizzards is possible. Not sure how likely it would be though, Master Rune of Blizzards is really powerful and what we're specifically trying to go for here.

This is partly why I like NSMS's suggestion. @NSMS, since we don't really have a glacier rune how about this instead: "The blinding speed of lightning, the freezing and unstoppable inevitability of the blizzard, and the indomitable fury of the storm'.
I used glacier because I tend to think of that as the ultimate example of snow and ice, but blizzard works too. I'm not sure the description 'freezing and unstoppable inevitability' works, though, as blizzards don't really carry that same sense of inevitability as glaciers; ten thousand blizzards might pass without really marking a landscape, while a single glacier will slowly but inevitably carve a path that scars it for millennia. Maybe use 'unyielding frost' or something along those lines instead?
 
I remember being dead set against using the heart on personal wargear, but having meditated on this I've come round to accepting you were right back then. I think a heart-powered unyielding rune on adamant armour would be fairly sick; I may have some quibbles about exactly which other runes would complement it best, but the central plank of the idea is solid imo.

Not sure about going for a theme on the griffonking armour tho. I think there are blizzard arrays on the table that have a good chance to combo and would basically be fine even in the event they don't. Blizzard suits the big guy especially well and I'm hesitant about any theme suggestion that might leave him stuck with some blizzardless setup. I realise you're wording your theme suggestions specifically so blizzard would be the most natural fit for them, but if we have a clear preference for a centrepiece rune I think we should follow that thought to its conclusion and commit to an array. Trying to tilt a theme write-in so it effectively becomes "one specific rune plus two blanks" seems like wanting to have our cake and eat it too, to my mind.

Hmm.. i can get behind that. At least then we won't have to research the M.R of Unyielding to put it on a banner, and can start working on Understand a Master Rune for Purification.
 
I used glacier because I tend to think of that as the ultimate example of snow and ice, but blizzard works too. I'm not sure the description 'freezing and unstoppable inevitability' works, though, as blizzards don't really carry that same sense of inevitability as glaciers; ten thousand blizzards might pass without really marking a landscape, while a single glacier will slowly but inevitably carve a path that scars it for millennia. Maybe use 'unyielding frost' or something along those lines instead?
The issue is there is a Rune of Frost, and we want MBlizzards. Might sound like semantics, but I don't want to risk it.
 
The issue is there is a Rune of Frost, and we want MBlizzards. Might sound like semantics, but I don't want to risk it.
I meant use 'unyielding frost of the blizzard', so replacing the description part of that section with 'unyielding frost'. Sorry if that wasn't clear. But you could use any number of descriptions there, tbh; unyielding cold, or frozen grasp, or something.
 
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I remember being dead set against using the heart on personal wargear, but having meditated on this I've come round to accepting you were right back then. I think a heart-powered unyielding rune on adamant armour would be fairly sick; I may have some quibbles about exactly which other runes would complement it best, but the central plank of the idea is solid imo.

Not sure about going for a theme on the griffonking armour tho. I think there are blizzard arrays on the table that have a good chance to combo and would basically be fine even in the event they don't. Blizzard suits the big guy especially well and I'm hesitant about any theme suggestion that might leave him stuck with some blizzardless setup. I realise you're wording your theme suggestions specifically so blizzard would be the most natural fit for them, but if we have a clear preference for a centrepiece rune I think we should follow that thought to its conclusion and commit to an array. Trying to tilt a theme write-in so it effectively becomes "one specific rune plus two blanks" seems like wanting to have our cake and eat it too, to my mind.
That's fair yeah! I'm suggesting a theme largely because Armor runes have been demonstrably hard to combo in previous attempts. But Master Blizzards and Lightning and Impact or Master Blizzards and Lightning and Grungni are both going to be really powerful rune sets regardless of if they actually Combo I think.

I used glacier because I tend to think of that as the ultimate example of snow and ice, but blizzard works too. I'm not sure the description 'freezing and unstoppable inevitability' works, though, as blizzards don't really carry that same sense of inevitability as glaciers; ten thousand blizzards might pass without really marking a landscape, while a single glacier will slowly but inevitably carve a path that scars it for millennia. Maybe use 'unyielding frost' or something along those lines instead?
Yeah that makes sense. Hmm. I think I'll post a plan that takes a risk on Master Blizzards, Lightning and Grungni and one that is Master Blizzards, Lightning and Impact. And then one with a theme like 'The blinding speed of lightning, the unyielding frost of the blizzard, and the indomitable fury of the storm'. I think I've changed my mind and generally prefer going for a combo manually after the points that have been raised.

Especially since a good chunk of ya'll giving me feed back want the Master Rune of Blizzards very specifically, and I agree with the reasoning raised for the rune. It'd do him real good.

I remember being dead set against using the heart on personal wargear, but having meditated on this I've come round to accepting you were right back then. I think a heart-powered unyielding rune on adamant armour would be fairly sick; I may have some quibbles about exactly which other runes would complement it best, but the central plank of the idea is solid imo.
In regards to this what other supporting runes do you think would be better for the Eternal Bastion armor suggestion than the currently proposed Fortitude and Preservation? Myself I'm the most iffy on Preservation, even if the idea of sealing every crack and weakness which it professes when used on armor is rather fitting to the Eternal Bastion concept.
 
In regards to this what other supporting runes do you think would be better for the Eternal Bastion armor suggestion than the currently proposed Fortitude and Preservation? Myself I'm the most iffy on Preservation, even if the idea of sealing every crack and weakness which it professes when used on armor is rather fitting to the Eternal Bastion concept.
Myself, I admit to being curious about what stacking healing runes would do. So master rune of the unyeilding, plus the rune of regeneration, plus a third regeneration or healing granting rune.
 
Still getting normal troll hearts from them. You'd need a particularly old Greedy Troll to bump up the heart a tier, but Otrek has been rather thorough in his campaigns.
[Q] Petion Otrek to leave a troll reserve where you can harvest better hearts from.
I can't find our personal equipment the tap in the loot vault looks blank.
I think thats because we've never made anything for ourselves. Although I think the ruby cape should be listed at least.
 
Hmm.. i can get behind that. At least then we won't have to research the M.R of Unyielding to put it on a banner, and can start working on Understand a Master Rune for Purification.

Not needing to do detail work on the unyielding rune is one reason I prefer the armour to bungie's alternative proposal of making a banner, yes. I'd like to see master rune research happen but there are many runes, not least purification, I'd rather see being tinkered with than unyielding.

That's fair yeah! I'm suggesting a theme largely because Armor runes have been demonstrably hard to combo in previous attempts. But Master Blizzards and Lightning and Impact or Master Blizzards and Lightning and Grungni are both going to be really powerful rune sets regardless of if they actually Combo I think.

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In regards to this what other supporting runes do you think would be better for the Eternal Bastion armor suggestion than the currently proposed Fortitude and Preservation? Myself I'm the most iffy on Preservation, even if the idea of sealing every crack and weakness which it professes when used on armor is rather fitting to the Eternal Bastion concept.

I still suspect the combo airballs on Otrek's and Gloin's suits had less to do with armour specifically being hard to combo and more to do with the arrays we chose basically boiling down to stongest defensive master rune we got + a coupla other physical and magical defence runes on top. I believe thinking less prosaically, for lack of a better word, will improve our chances going forward: blizzard/lightning/impact all contribute toward a coherent statement, moreso than gromril/preservation/sanctuary did imo. The former says "thunderbolt in the heart of winter" while the latter says "I'm stacking all the bonuses to Armour Class, bro, so I'll be really hard to hit".

I hope you don't feel I'm being overly dismissive or that I'm misrepresenting the work that went into picking Otrek's runes, and obviously there's an element of reading entrails at work here when I'm trying to prognosticate what makes for good combo fodder, because who can say how Soul really goes about deciding if a set will combo or not. If we go with a handpicked set for the griffonking and it fails to combo, feel free to quote this post back at me and ask me how things worked out for me lol

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As for the dwarf armour, I'm in agreement with you that preservation is the odd man out. Unyielding and fortitude both work on the man inside the armour and intuitively fit well together with the concepts I associate with the heart: persistence, stubbornness, vitality etc. Preservation is described as affecting the armour itself, making it supernaturally protective. It's a rune designed to work on dead matter; a fine low-risk choice for most armour but a poor fit for this particular suit, imo.

Instead, we may want to look for another rune that would associate with the flesh-and-blood man inside the armour rather than the cold metal of the suit itself. The heart's got connotations with vigour and physical strength, so if you're willing to deviate from the philosophy of maximum defence a little bit, I think the rune of might could be really sick together with unyielding and fortitude. Being able to take on all comers and stay standing necessarily suggests being able to push back, after all, and those three runes together all pull towards the direction of overflowing vitality and inexhaustible strength. It's the kind of armour I picture Snorri the Immovable wearing.

Alternatively you could pull on the idea of a man's heart being the seat of violent emotions and put a rune of fury in there, but I acknowledge that's kind of an oddball choice and would be going even further afield of your goal of making a defensive piece (even though I think it could potentially be really cool).
 
As for the dwarf armour, I'm in agreement with you that preservation is the odd man out. Unyielding and fortitude both work on the man inside the armour and intuitively fit well together with the concepts I associate with the heart: persistence, stubbornness, vitality etc. Preservation is described as affecting the armour itself, making it supernaturally protective. It's a rune designed to work on dead matter; a fine low-risk choice for most armour but a poor fit for this particular suit, imo.

Instead, we may want to look for another rune that would associate with the flesh-and-blood man inside the armour rather than the cold metal of the suit itself. The heart's got connotations with vigour and physical strength, so if you're willing to deviate from the philosophy of maximum defence a little bit, I think the rune of might could be really sick together with unyielding and fortitude. Being able to take on all comers and stay standing necessarily suggests being able to push back, after all, and those three runes together all pull towards the direction of overflowing vitality and inexhaustible strength. It's the kind of armour I picture Snorri the Immovable wearing.

Alternatively you could pull on the idea of a man's heart being the seat of violent emotions and put a rune of fury in there, but I acknowledge that's kind of an oddball choice and would be going even further afield of your goal of making a defensive piece (even though I think it could potentially be really cool).
Rune of regeneration, maybe? Or perhaps an ancestor rune?
 
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