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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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For gronti runes I'd rather have Master Rune of Awakening, Rune of Fortitude, and Rune of Stone. Rune of Stone to give it the essence of Dawi, and Rune of Fortitude just for the rumour that armour bearing this rune can gain sentience.
 
Garlak said:
You've said that you'd grown tired of the idea... but that was because all of us felt like we wanted to add our own unique twist or touch to the Golem, isn't it?
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Yes that's pretty much spot on for what I've said, and it's really a case of too much feature creep for me to enjoy where its going.

Like, to enumerate my biggest gripe with the feature creep now that I've got a grasp on it; there's no consolidated plan for what it is as it stands, there's no write ins for it, there's no end date. It just seems to exist because its a topic to chew over between updates. Honestly it was a bit of a potch up on my part not making a write in for it immediately after I made the Warrior write up, or once I realized that feature creep was happening.

But I'll make up a write up for my original design. @soulcake here's a new one.

[] [Difficult] Ymir, Pt 1: You built the Miner decades ago and it stands strong, carving away at the Underway and standing guard when not digging. You saw Gronti of all kinds during the campaign with Grimnir, and you've spoken with Yorri about them at length. Sometimes you've dreamed about them, made from silvery metal. You have the Gromril, you can make one with it, the largest work you've done with the metal to date. Design and build a Gronti that is four meters tall (OOC: Ogre sized) out of Pure Gromril, and clothe it in a skin of Adamant.

And yeah the intended runes were Master Rune of Awakening, Might and Fortitude.
 
EVA-Saiyajin said:
+15? Bit much isn't it?
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True on the other hand, if things are being thrown around for bbcode suggestions, we may as well ask.
Whats your opinion on Tabs soulcake?
Weapons Armour Banners Talismans Warmachines Buildings
  • Troll Slayer: Dragon's Spite
    • A two-handed, single-bladed greataxe, it's head decorated to look like a falling meteor starting from the head and trailing into the buttspike, and stained Wutroth shaft decorated in swirling silver knotwork studded with sapphires and handle wrapped in Troll leather. A weapon fit for the greatest of kings, a weapon that has crowned and served one for well over a century, and his line forevermore.[Combo, Meteorfall: Master Rune of Conduction, Rune of Might, Rune of Impact]: Its blows fall like Comets into the earth, sundering all in its way. Trollbane: Made by Snorri Gift Giver, this weapon holds a part of that most Legendary Runelord's terrifying aura, sending chills down the spine of things too dumb to feel it otherwise and cutting through them all the faster.
    • An intricately carved bolt thrower bolt, the dragonbone shaft is engraved to appear like a Wyrm's breath. Reinforced with a core of Pure Gromril, and capped off with an adamant bolt head, the tip glowing like a dragon's breath from the Runes engraved on it. [Master Rune of Currents+, Rune of Frost +, Rune of Grudges (Empty]
  • Wyrmguard Drakeplate
    • The armour gleams brilliant silver. Etched so that the plate evokes the image of a dragon with decorative scales and horns made of Silver overtop the Adamant armour. Within each scale, written with incredible detail, are the names and deeds of the Lords of Clan Ironarm from their founding millennia ago. A living reminder of the proud lineage the Bearer carries on. Many of the scales lie empty, ready to receive new deeds as and names as the armour will doubtlessly be passed down for generations to come. The Runes on it glow a brilliant teal, and if one looks closely enough, a shimmering field of energy extends just a hair's breadth away from the bearer, enveloping them entirely. [Master Rune of Gromril, Rune of Preservation, Rune of Sanctuary]
    • The armour of the Heir of Kraka Drakk, this pure Gromril armour glimmers brilliantly, outshined only by its Kingly companion. Decorated in much the same fashion, with Dragonbone scales meant to be etched with the names of the heirs of Clan Ironarm and their deeds done before taking up the Crown of Kraka Drakk. The Runes on its surface glow fiercely, protecting the bearer from harm.[Master Rune of Gromril, Rune of Preservation, Rune of Valaya]
  • Silver Wyrm Banner Drake's Mantle Wyrm's Hide
    • A great banner of Wyrmhide upon a pole of Silver Wutroth which itself is strengthened by Pure Gromril. Etched into the dragon hide banner is a grand saga retelling the death of the Great Icewyrn, posthumously named Skozulladrakk, the Frozen Death, at the hands of Otrek Ironarm, King of Kraka Drakk and the King of the Skies, Lord of Griffons. The banner shimmers with energy, almost like a layer of crystal clear ice overtop the hide itself. [Combo, Ancestral Aegis: [Master Rune of Grungni, Rune of Valaya, Rune of Spellbreaking] [Magic cast at the formation bearing this banner will be diffused, broken down and used to power a swirling field of Runic energy and wind that can withstand even the most ruinous of blows from sources mundane and magical, and burns the daemonic.]
    • One of a set of cloaks made by Snorri Gift Giver for the Heir of Kraka Drakk. A pure white piece of dragon hide taken from an Elder Icewyrm. The cloak emanates a chilling Aura even when not active, crystals of frost forming at its Gromril plated edges. The crystals it forms growing densest around the Runes inscribed on its center. [Combo, Hailmantle +: Rune of Frost, Rune of Parrying, Rune of Sanctuary] Quenched in the blood of an Elderwyrm this cloak creates a whirling blizzard of ice around the bearer and their companions. The frozen winds it generates blow fiercely, slowing enemies and outright freezing lesser foes, all while it protects the bearer and their allies with the ferocity of a blizzard in deepest winter.
    • One of a set of cloaks made by Snorri Gift Giver for the King of Kraka Drakk. The white of the hide is stained in soot. Greying it slightly, making the leather look older and giving the craggy piece of hide the appearance of stone. It emanates a minor aura of heat even when not active, some claim they see embers spark off of its surface or even a small tongue of flame. [Combo, Pyrestrike: Rune of Grimnir, Rune of Burning, Rune of Impact] When activated, a swirling sphere of fire and heated air creates a protective layer around the bearer and their allies. Detonating in an explosion of energy and flame on command, or when hit with sufficient force.
  • Wyrmheart Amulet
    • A large round Hearthstone is embedded on a Dragon's bone. Attached on either side of the central piece are two Dragon's claws engraved with Pure Gromril filigree, the broach is held by a sturdy silver chain. Staring at the gem is said to remind the looker of fond memories and feelings of home.[Combo, Hearthward: Rune of Valaya, Rune of Warding, Rune of Furnace] The central stone is engraved with this Runic combo, emanating an aura of warmth and invigorating the bearer. Strengthening and fortifying their vitality and warding away disease and sickness.
  • The Reckoner The Retaliator The Miner
    • A larger than standard Bolt Thrower that weighs slightly less than most would reckon. Constructed from Pure Gromril and the signature Silver Wutroth of Kraka Drakk, the weapon is decorated in the hold's slightly less famous silver and sapphire filigree. The weapon itself is modelled to look like the great Ice Wyrm the hold was named for; the arms carved into the shape of silvery wings, the beast's snarling mouth engraved at the end of the groove where the bolt is placed. Despite its shining appearance, the potent rune array inscribed on it ensures the weapon remains concealed and makes its first shot hit with the strength of a thunderbolt. [Combo, Rangerstrike: Master Rune of Disguise, Rune of Penetrating, Rune of Accuracy]
    • A bolt thrower built to act as a companion for The Reckoner. The siege engine is also shaped like a Snarling Icewyrm, though made specifically to appear like Skozulladrakk, the Frozen Death, the dread Wyrm slain by Otrek Ironarm, King of Kraka Drakk and the King of the Skies. [Rune of Accuracy, Rune of Penetrating, Rune of Grudges (Dragon Ogres)]
    • A twelve-meter tall Gronti of stone. Made in the image of a dwarf miner, its form is incredibly detailed down to the links in its chain shirt. It wields a titanic Gromril headed pickaxe, the Silver Wutroth shaft held in both hands. Used to clear the Underway path of Kraka Drakk, and if called, a weapon of war. [Master Rune of Waking, Rune of Speed, Rune of Burning]
  • The Gates of Kraka Drakk
    • A set of giant Gromril plated doors. Runes made to ward off the terrors of the North burning brightly on its surface. It stands behind a less impressive door of granite and Wutroth and behind it, the Murderous Labyrinth of Kraka Drakk awaits any foe that somehow breaks through this unyielding monument of Dwarfen defensive mentality and spite. [Combo, Daemonward: Master Rune of Valaya, Rune of Sanctuary, Rune of Determination.]


I don't think I like how little space each tab heading has, it feels like there ought to be a solution for that though.
E: Curse you Banners. I'll show you for messing up the formatting like that!
 
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Please don't overuse tabs like that. They just... It might look all convenient at first, because it's all in one spot and so it seems like its ergonomic, but it usually ends up being... you wind up having to flip between tab after tab, and opening up subsection after subsection, and it doesn't scale well either if you start to have a lot of items because they end up being squished in on a row.

And finally... Tabs -- and accordions too for that matter -- make it essentially impossible to use the cntrl+f feature.

I actually really liked one aspect of just the original spoilers; it was that you could open them all up at the same time, and then could browse through them in one scroll.

And if you ever felt "I think I remembered this thing being in some write-up, but I don't remember where..." you could open every spoiler, and then cntrl+f and search for the word.
BungieONI said:
[] [Difficult] Ymir, Pt 1: You built the Miner decades ago and it stands strong, carving away at the Underway and standing guard when not digging. You saw Gronti of all kinds during the campaign with Grimnir, and you've spoken with Yorri about them at length. Sometimes you've dreamed about them, made from silvery metal. You have the Gromril, you can make one with it, the largest work you've done with the metal to date. Design and build a Gronti that is four meters tall (OOC: Ogre sized) out of Pure Gromril, and clothe it in a skin of Adamant.
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We have the technology. We have the power. First: our brother Jorri, the first latest bionic Dwarf. And next... a golem! :p

What size was it that you were thinking of making it? 4 meters, 10? I forget which it was desired to be, other than for when people were debating about Adamant requirements... ><
 
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one big page to scroll through is a pretty bad option if you're on mobile though.
E: Oh btw have you tried coping the thing and pasting it into a text doc so you can search?
 
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We should really complete the Waking of Things, if not the Mind of Things, before making a super-gronti.

It should be quite possible to do so within a few turns, and there's literally no real urgency to use the Heart. It won't go stale or go off.

A nice thing about the gronti is that while it can serve as the base of a set of items, those can be stretch goals we do later. It can also incorporate the other ideas proposed, using lesser ingredients.
 
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Dark as Silver said:
one big page to scroll through is a pretty bad option if you're on mobile though.
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That would usually be where spoilers come in; it's only a big page if/when you open up literally all the spoilers. Otherwise it's, well, not. Meanwhile though, spoilers give you the option of being able to, ah, unroll or unfurl it if you wanted to.
Dark as Silver said:
E: Oh btw have you tried coping the thing and pasting it into a text doc so you can search?
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No, because I want to be able to do it in-browser rather than in-...typing-thing. I want to use it for a quick reference or as a way to get to a spot quickly. Opening an entire text doc, quoting, copying and pasting, dealing with all the raw BB code... And also, cntrl+f in the internet browser is much faster to boot. And, it is of course not really viable if you're looking at the Reader Mode version of the Informational Tab. Because then you're looking at 10 posts, not 1.

(Also, another major thing is that I've been using the technique of having 2 Informational Reader Mode pages open side by side (well, okay, more like 1 Reader Mode page... and then hitting "duplicate tab" on it to spawn a second) ; update 1 at a time; and then check them for changes. Spoiler boxes means I can open up all the spoilers in both pages, and then check them against each other. With accordions, I have to check each accordion box at a time...)
BungieONI said:
It's specified in the thing at the very end.
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D'oh, so it is.
 
fictionfan said:
I want to do that this turn. He has already paid up and we have delayed too long already.
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You don't understand. We are literally definitely doing it, locked in.

And guys, maybe, just maybe, the Rune of Grungni is the key to uniting MBlizzards and Lightning via the third aspect of the storm: wind.

Following Yorri's advice, you tap the amulet with your hammer, and just as the metal connects, the Rune of Grungni begins glowing fiercely. A small whirlwind begins to form around you before you hastily shut off the Rune.
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It certainly fits with Blizzards "deflect projectiles" thing.
 
EVA-Saiyajin said:
You don't understand. We are literally definitely doing it, locked in.

And guys, maybe, just maybe, the Rune of Grungni is the key to uniting MBlizzards and Lightning via the third aspect of the storm: wind.


It certainly fits with Blizzards "deflect projectiles" thing.
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Oooo that's a good idea.
 
For the record, I am completely cool with only using the heart on MUnyielding for the armour. The only reason the stonehorn horns are in there is because I thought they were required. If not? Then just the heart, absolutely, it renders a t3 reagent obsolete.

@soulcake, can we *just* use the Heart and still get MUnyielding?

I would also be open to replacing Impact with Grungi, although I think Impact is a bit better match thematically - grungi is kind of duplicating blizzard's
 
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BelligerentGnu said:
For the record, I am completely cool with only using the heart on MUnyielding for the armour. The only reason the stonehorn horns are in there is because I thought they were required. If not? Then just the heart, absolutely, it renders a t3 reagent obsolete.

@soulcake, can we *just* use the Heart and still get MUnyielding?

I would also be open to replacing Impact with Grungi, although I think Impact is a bit better match thematically - grungi is kind of duplicating blizzard's
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Yeah this seems to have been an issue where since we've never swapped or used additional non structural components that we aren't sure how the thing works.
It is touched on in the Rune Magic primer, most importantly here
soulcake said:
Now, theoretically, that Rune of Fire also encompasses fire hot enough to match a dragon, but that effect is harder to achieve because it's more specific than just fire in general, so if a runesmith wants that "definition" they use dragon bits to weigh the scales in its favour. Imparting the material's power to get the rune effect they want.
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However one important thing is that we're told the Heart would have a positive effect on almost anything yet we also know.
soulcake said:
Consequently, flubbing any part of that can alter the definition being used immensely from ... to an entirely different reagent.
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So the question really is what is the dwarves cultural perception of the Stonehorn Horn's power and what is the Hearts power, how are they different and is the heart a straight upgrade or does it have additional/missing/an altered balance that will effect the definition of the the MUnyeilding (We do kind of know enough to anticipate this, much better regen (and likely tireless) relative to the increase in the defenses).
Its also worth asking what runes the heart would flub on as we know that the heart improves almost all.

But on the bright side for anyone who doesn't want to spend the heart.
soulcake said:
A theoretical "Perfect/Ideal Runelord" who understands everything and has the precision of a god could make every Rune with nothing but a chisel and hammer
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So given infinite time we won't even need a crutch like that, we'll just bang something out on a limestone tablet and call it a day. :D
A strong argument to still be playing this quest in 2030. Assuming we still have functioning electricity and are not living in the Mad Max desert IRL.

E: Actually if we want to avoid side effects and the definition of the Rune shifting thats likely an argument for the Armour MValaya as it uses Stone Trolls blood or the Gronti which uses a Trolls heart. Since the starting ingredients are more similar to the heart I think these are likely to give us just the Rune turned to 11 rather than the Rune turned to 11 with side effects.
 
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Dark as Silver said:
E: Actually if we want to avoid side effects and the definition of the Rune shifting thats likely an argument for the Armour MValaya as it uses Stone Trolls blood or the Gronti which uses a Trolls heart. Since the starting ingredients are more similar to the heart I think these are likely to give us just the Rune turned to 11 rather than the Rune turned to 11 with side effects.
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It requires less work arounds to do what Eva suggested and use the heart on one of the other two runes in the suggested combo like Fortitude.

We know it won't break with that, given that Fortitude was explicitly mentioned in the Greedy Heart Research project description.
 
I mean, we can definitely do that, and I think it would work well. I just wonder, would we still get super-powered regeneration/tirelessness? Like, does a reagent empower just one rune, or the whole array? What if it's a Combo, all the runes working together?
 
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BungieONI said:
It requires less work arounds to do what Eva suggested and use the heart on one of the other two runes in the suggested combo like Fortitude.

We know it won't break with that, given that Fortitude was explicitly mentioned in the Greedy Heart Research project description.
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I don't know whats so hard to understand about my position, let me illustrate it for you:
 
The tragedy of this is that I expect we'll find likely find other ingredient appropriate ingredients for armour. This is likely by the the best ingredient for a gronti we'll ever make, and Snorri is better at making gromril gronti than he is at anything else.

Let other Runelords who specialise in Armour or Banners or Buildings spend their T5 ingredients on a masterpiece in their area of focus. We should make the monuments to our skills from the things we're actually most skilled at making, using the runes we've improved ourself, not runes we've just bought of the shelf from other Runelords.

Sure we could make a decent armour or banner from it, but it feels much less personal and specific to Snorri's story to do that. It becomes merely a tool rather than the culmination of a story of his work and what he's learned as a runelord.

At least if we want to make armour wait until we've developed T5 runemetal, so it is something legitiamtely special and particular to him, not something any of the Brotherhood could make if they had the Heart, and very many of them would do a better job of. Of course, that would always be true to some degree with very elder runelords, but with Snorri's peers? Using a rune one of his peers sold him? It makes it seem mundane.
 
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I don't see how this gets resolved without QM intervention.
Sorry.
@soulcake
  1. I can't see any particular synergies with the Rune of Waking but there must have been something at one point or the troll heart wouldn't be used. Could you explain the logic there?
  2. Would I be right in guessing that using the heart would produce no unusual effects just being like we were crafting it with a few centuries more experience? As we are able to impart more of an approximately similar power and rely less on Snorri's skill.
    1. What improvements would we expect that to reflect in a Gronti or are we actually working close to the limits of the Rune atm and massively improving Gronti's will require new runes?
I understand if you don't feel like answering any or all of this.
 
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Alratan said:
The tragedy of this is that I expect we'll find likely find other ingredient appropriate ingredients for armour. This is likely by the the best ingredient for a gronti we'll ever make, and Snorri is better at making gromril gronti than he is at anything else.
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Strongly disagree with that. I suspect that the Suneater's Brain will turn out to be better for Gronti, and we already have that.

This is what we know for certain about the Greedy Heart:

You're sure that whatever Rune you create with this damn thing will be incredibly energetic, more so than usual. It would make a regeneration rune you think could at the very least regrow limbs in seconds if concentrated to an individual, and heal broken limbs if spread out through something like a Banner Rune. Defensive Runes too would be incredibly powerful, if you had this heart when you had made your amulet it would have made the shield far more powerful, perhaps even reflect physical attacks as well. The limits are endless, and many of your theories ended up being proven correct. Frankly its a bit disappointing to have been right the first time, admittedly you were surprised by some things, and you're sure the damn thing will have one last trick in store for you, but you won't really know until you put it to use on a Rune.
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Regeneration and Defensive Runes. That's all we know for sure. The idea that it would make a super-gronti is purely thread speculation, although reasonably so. The idea was 1) In canon Warhammer, grontis ceased function due to running out of energy. 2) The heart provides endless energy. 3) Therefore, a heart-empowered gronti will never cease functioning. I get this line of reasoning, but honestly, just "runs forever" isn't that appealing to me.

That last sentence in the quote is making me rethink a bit, though. If we're fundamentally unsure how this thing is going to work out, and we're sure there's going to be some hijinx anyways - maybe we should just go for it.
 
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