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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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IronFist said:
Unfortunately we can't go by the length of time it took us to become masters, as it seems that there's a bit of an inconsistency in the first few posts.
Our apprenticeship only lasted 20 years, and we became a master in 50.
But since taking on a single apprentice takes 8 turns, I.e. 80 years, and even Snerra, who is as prodigal as prodigal gets took 60 years, i think we can multiply the first two numbers by 4.
Lemme see. We start at 30, took 80 years to become a journeyman, and then spent 2 centuries to get the master rank. That would make us a Master Runesmith at 310. 180 years later we become a Runelord at 490. We still fall short of the age at which we started (560?) but that could be just time we spent making up our mind about what to do next.
With that said, I don't think we should expect our first batch of apprentices to come back to us for another century. Applying 25% reduction for Snerra would put her a few decades ahead of the other two.

Edit: actually, if we multiply the numbers by 5, we get a century long apprenticeship, and 250 years working on our mastery. 30 + 100 + 250 + 180 = 560. We were named runelord and set out to make our mark on the world.
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Perhaps Yorri is just a much better teacher than Snorri, with the equivilent of multiple traits to make his mentoring more efficient that we'd gradually develop something like with sufficient practice.

Fezzes said:
I'd prefer using that "teaching an apprentice" action on something situationally relevant. What that is I don't yet know, but I'd like to have the freedom to react to things without cutting really heavily into our ability to sort through all the research backlog. We have a lot of backlog on that end, especially with all the dragon ogre research. Say, any requests that come our way, where we can switch off looking through odd places and bundle two actions together for Productivity Like No Other while still triggering Student of the Odd and/or Mind for Metal on our research. With an apprentice, we need to sacrifice. It's a constraint I don't see much need to apply, in essence. Maybe I just don't get how endearing the apprentices are or something. I've never much cared about them, which seems like an oddity among the thread.
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Apprentices can also do some of the work for us.

I personally see passing on runelore to worthy apprentices as perhaps a Runelord's highest duty in peacetime. Snorri is just a craftsman or researcher, he's also a leader, guildmaster and high priest. Producing well educated apprentices is, to my mind, an even higher form of craft than the runes he personally engraves.

Apprentices aren't a sacrifice, they're an investment in the future, one that's cheap at the price of one downgraded action per turn.
 
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I've been pondering the problem presented by our limited selection of Armor Master Runes and Armor Master Runes since we made Otrek and Gloin's armor sets.

As of right now this is the list of Runes for the Armor category that we know, excepting others that fall into the "stuff Snorri knows but isn't directly listed":

Master Rune of Gromril
Master Rune of Steel
Rune of Fortitude
Rune of Impact
Rune of Iron
Rune of Steel
Rune of Preservation
Rune of Stone

We know that these combinations of Runes don't make Combos:

Snorri's. [Master Rune of Gromril, Rune of Fortitude, Rune of Impact.]
Otrek's. [Master Rune of Gromril, Rune of Preservation, Rune of Sanctuary]
Gloin's. [Master Rune of Gromril, Rune of Preservation, Rune of Valaya]

If we want to make a combo from them then focusing on specific things we want out of a combo seems sensible. Magic resistance is a commonly desired thing from what I've seen.

Amongst Armor Runes the runes that have to do with resisting magic based on the rune lists and descriptions in quest are:

Master Rune of Gromril.
Master Rune of Steel.
Rune of Steel, since its a lesser form of the Master Rune.
Rune of Iron? It makes armor magical. Maybe it makes them magically resistant to.

Not that many and if the rune of iron doesn't make you more resistant to magic then you can't make a Combo where every piece has to do with magic resistance. Not exactly a bad thing, but simply one of the borders of the system. We'd need to look to the other categories to get more.

From other rune categories we get a couple of other runes:

Master Rune of Grungni
Master Rune of Valaya
Rune of Sanctuary
Rune of Spellbreaking
Rune of Spelleating
Rune of Warding
Rune of Negation. Mentioned while making the Master Rune of Purification back in turn 12.

These are a combination of Banner and Talisman runes and one unlisted rune. Now I'm not including the Master Rune of Purification because at the moment we don't have an armor variation for it, but if we did it'd go on the list too.

If I wanted to say something like "The wearer of this armor will not be harmed by foul magic." I'd go with with Master Rune of Gromril, Rune of Spellbreaking, Rune of Negation or Rune of Warding.

Honestly its probably just easier using a Theme choice for an armor set and hoping we roll well.

Horium said:
Not really, turns 16, 17, 18 and 19 were without apprentices, and of those, 18 and 19 were in the middle of a daemonic siege, not a good time to have apprentices.

The rest of the quest, we had apprentices. So, 75% of the quest, more or less.

It's still too soon for new ones, imo.
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How long would be long enough in your mind?
 
I realize this is disheartening news everyone, but going over my notes and the update have led to a discrepancy.

1/3 Norscan Dwarfholds have fallen
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should instead be

2/3 Norscan Dwarfholds have fallen.

I apologize for this, it seems I didn't catch it during the first editing pass and I certainly can't expect you to point that out for me considering I haven't told anyone. Sorry about that one folks.
 
soulcake said:
I realize this is disheartening news everyone, but going over my notes and the update have led to a discrepancy.


should instead be

2/3 Norscan Dwarfholds have fallen.

I apologize for this, it seems I didn't catch it during the first editing pass and I certainly can't expect you to point that out for me considering I haven't told anyone. Sorry about that one folks.
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Well at least the dwarves and the griffons match...:cry:
 
BungieONI said:
Rune of Iron? It makes armor magical. Maybe it makes them magically resistant to.

Not that many and if the rune of iron doesn't make you more resistant to magic then you can't make a Combo where every piece has to do with magic resistance. Not exactly a bad thing, but simply one of the borders of the system. We'd need to look to the other categories to get more.
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Note that all runes make the item magical.

I think we're going down the wrong track trying to make anti-magic armour. The dwarves have a good answer to enemy spellcasting, runesmiths with runes of spellbreaking. We don't need to spend a valuable armour slot that could be used to prevent the wearer being squished on one of the few things that regular runesmiths can deal with.
 
soulcake said:
I realize this is disheartening news everyone, but going over my notes and the update have led to a discrepancy.


should instead be

2/3 Norscan Dwarfholds have fallen.

I apologize for this, it seems I didn't catch it during the first editing pass and I certainly can't expect you to point that out for me considering I haven't told anyone. Sorry about that one folks.
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Oh, phew. I thought you were going to say we had lower rolls than we actually did and didn't legitimately defeat Kholek and his forces, or something.

No worries. I've tried to embrace being a Runelord, and we're not a ruler of Kraka Drakk, never mind the whole north.
 
soulcake said:
A Dwarf ahead of his time has no control over his fellows ability to replicate his feats. You aren't an engineer, so you don't know exactly how much Morgrim has released into the world that his apprentices and followers just haven't been able to replicate.
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You are correct I do not, all I can base my knowledge on is a comparison between IRL stuff and what I am aware of in universe.

Maybe the rules of physics and chemistry align to make things like gunpowder unreasonably complex in WHF compared to RL.

However, I will say that being ahead of your time does give you control over your ability to teach others to replicate his feats...

Sigh look I'm not trying to argue which is always a bad sign its like saying no offense, but I promise I'm really not this is me trying to explain my thoughts and if you want me to just shut I will of course do that.

What you quoted is merely me talking based on what I've seen. Morgrim seems to have spread his knowledge the least compared to the other ancestors. We have you showing what he can do for himself, and yes replicating things like that is unreasonable...but at the same time I've no indications that he's say given them something a lot simpler like say steam pumps to drain water from mines, which would strike me as a very Dawi thing to both invent and proliferate. As you point out Snorri not being an engineer means he wouldn't be likely to know. I am biased cause of IRL knowledge and knowing what the Dawi will invent...around 4000ish years in the future in what by Dawi terms is unnaturally rapid succession.

Of course I'm not Morgrim maybe that was the ancestor's ultimate plan. All I know is that the most he seems to have given weapons wise is Grude Throwers, Bolt Throwers and cultic interpretations that bring out some of the worst in the Dawi.
 
Alratan said:
Note that all runes make the item magical.

I think we're going down the wrong track trying to make anti-magic armour. The dwarves have a good answer to enemy spellcasting, runesmiths with runes of spellbreaking. We don't need to spend a valuable armour slot that could be used to prevent the wearer being squished on one of the few things that regular runesmiths can deal with.
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I'm going off the description in the rune list. "Magical armor" is obviously significantly different enough from what everything else does to merit listing specifically.

What made you change your mind that we don't need to worry about the Nurglite and other Chaotic spells that can get around armor that isn't made to defend against them and attack the squishy user on the inside?
 
BungieONI said:
I'm going off the description in the rune list. "Magical armor" is obviously significantly different enough from what everything else does to merit listing specifically.

What made you change your mind that we don't need to worry about the Nurglite and other Chaotic spells that can get around armor that isn't made to defend against them and attack the squishy user on the inside?
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We do have to worry about them, but now the Chaos Incursion seems over so we can't be swamped in daemons in the same way I think the way to do that is to keep the number of runesmiths high and have them be on dispelling overwatch using Spellbreaker Runes or have banners that produce area effect protection, given what we've shown the Ancestral Aegis can manage. Each dwarf is not an island, and there are a huge number of physical threats that we wouldn't be protecting against if we try to use armour to cover an attack vector that we already have covered.
 
godofsmallthings said:
Not enough dwarves to even take back the holds. It will be at least a century before all the major holds are retaken.
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More than that probably. Not much we can personally do about dwarf numbers except make equipment so less die to foolishness.

Alratan said:
We do have to worry about them, but now the Chaos Incursion seems over so we can't be swamped in daemons in the same way I think the way to do that is to keep the number of runesmiths high and have them be on dispelling overwatch using Spellbreaker Runes or have banners that produce area effect protection, given what we've shown the Ancestral Aegis can manage. Each dwarf is not an island, and there are a huge number of physical threats that we wouldn't be protecting against if we try to use armour to cover an attack vector that we already have covered.
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Conveniently the Master Rune of Gromril does both so we can have physical resistance on top of our magical resistance.
 
BungieONI said:
Conveniently the Master Rune of Gromril does both so we can have physical resistance on top of our magical resistance.
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Where I think it matters is Combo hunting. I think it's much harder to find combos if we're focusing on squeezing in anti-magic functionality rather than just thinking of themes. Something like 'The stars in the clear night sky' is a lot more cohesive than trying to find excuses for why magic doesn't work.

On the Rune of Iron, sometimes you need magic armour to protect against ethereal foes, . For a simple, easy to make Rune, you might be able to apply a lot of the Rune of Iron, even if every other armour rune does what it does and also does something else, as long as it's enough cheaper than the competition.

The way to read it as more saying, it 'only' makes armour magical.
 
If the runes of Grungni, Valaya and Grimnir don't make a combo then I'll shave my beard.
 
jjffjhjf said:
We might be able to make banners that improve fertility, which could help pump up dwarf numbers over time. Probably require researching a master rune for it though.
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I don't think we need to magically interfere with fertility, but help create a situation where the dwarves feel secure and optimistic enough to bring children into the world.

I think that's where things like mass scale rune projects really shine.
 
BungieONI said:
How long would be long enough in your mind?
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My preference would be 3-4 turns more.

It feels like barely any time passed since we sent out our last apprentices to journey and experience the world.

I am not being facetious. I really do like apprentices and I buy into the Snorri narrative of him building a large family of apprentices (Santa's helpers cough-cough).

If in the voting a plan that gets us apprentices wins, I'll not mind.

But I think it would be more meaningful, and more practical, if at least a couple more turns have passed.

It would feel less Snorri trying to alleviate the mother hen syndrome, and more a genuine desire to again spread his craft.
 
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Seeing as we can't afford any more casualties in the reclamation of the clanhomes and holds that have been lost, and a super special Gronti is looking to take too long for us to agree to work on, I say we find a good combo for a healing banner we can stick the Greedy Heart into. It'll be perfect for the long campaign to reclaim the north.

I mean, the casualty numbers haven't changed but the ratio to which the north has suffered has. No point in taking it back if it means we suffer so much more we can't effectively be a part or have a say in the doings of the greater Karaz Ankor. I don't want the thread to get obsessed with making up for the losses such that we don't properly take advantage of the hopeful Golden Age knowledge to come-and as a Runelord we need to be directly part of that growth in knowledge to benefit from it because unlike economics we're not going to be getting new runes and stuff from ongoing trade.

Because we all know if the north is lagging or suffering in some way people are going to want to devote attention to pushing it up. And even without all that a Greedy Heart healing banner would last for all time as an incredibly useful resource.
 
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I think a big thing for the Gronti is knowing that Dwarfs won't be able to wake them anymore some time in the future. It's meta knowledge, and thousands of years in the future... but it still weighs in the balance.
 
IronFist said:
I think a big thing for the Gronti is knowing that Dwarfs won't be able to wake them anymore some time in the future. It's meta knowledge, and thousands of years in the future... but it still weighs in the balance.
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Not to me. The inability to wake them is due to a loss of knowledge, not them refusing to wake up ala the dragons.
 
BungieONI said:
From other rune categories we get a couple of other runes:

Master Rune of Grungni
Master Rune of Valaya
Rune of Sanctuary
Rune of Spellbreaking
Rune of Spelleating
Rune of Warding
Rune of Negation. Mentioned while making the Master Rune of Purification back in turn 12.
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I know we've chatted briefly about this previously (and that I was the guy who raised the possibility in the first place lol), but I kinda suspect the master ancestor runes don't actually go on armour without further research being put into them. Snorri just got the master rune of grimnir and it's only listed under weapons and banners - if it could be applied to any item you please, I would've expected Soul to have listed it under either a single category or all five of them.

'Twould be most epic if @soulcake could clarify this point for us. For context, we're referring to the thing you wrote many updates ago about ancestor runes always being chiselled exactly the same way and "knowing" what effects to apply depending on context, unlike regular runes which have to be adapted by the runesmith to suit the kind of surface being worked on. Does that one-method-fits-all rule also apply to the master ancestor runes (which would imply we could put the master rune of valaya on a suit of armour right now, if we wanted), or does the special rule only apply to the standard ancestor runes (meaning we'd have to take the special research action before we could migrate the master rune of valaya away from the banner category, same as any other kind of master banner rune)?

Alratan said:
I think we're going down the wrong track trying to make anti-magic armour. The dwarves have a good answer to enemy spellcasting, runesmiths with runes of spellbreaking. We don't need to spend a valuable armour slot that could be used to prevent the wearer being squished on one of the few things that regular runesmiths can deal with.
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We were talking about antimagic armour in the context of making stuff for the griffonking, or at least I was. That guy is often off doing his own thing rather than fighting as part of a big dwarf army (like when he spent a decade fighting a guerilla battle with the dragon god to buy time for Snorri's crew), so I don't think it's safe to assume he'll always have a battery of runesmiths on hand to deal with magic for him. You could still put a talisman or banner on antimagic duty and focus his armour runes on other things obviously.
 
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