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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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To each their own, I'm voting for research.
You do realize that we are researching stuff no matter what, no?

It is just that doing nothing else but using the 5 Snorri AP for several turns for what it is at best a hypothetical reward is pretty unwise...

We would still research at least 3 AP and we will have enough AP for proding Yorri and marching to war
 
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I really want to get ESP done as soon as possible because i find the possibilities of what we can do with it fascinating. So i ill be voting for research. I am not bothered with the war right now and i think it can wait a few more turns.

I have to say i loved that Snorri said he was proud of Karstah this chapter, Tugged at my heart.
 
I really want to get ESP done as soon as possible because i find the possibilities of what we can do with it fascinating. So i ill be voting for research. I am not bothered with the war right now and i think it can wait a few more turns.
And what will happen when we complete ESP level 1 and we get nothing immediately usable out of it?

Because seriously, in EVERY new research tree that we have started in this quest, we have NEVER gotten anything usable out of it until levels 2-3, and I doubt that ESP is going to be an exception...

Likewise. We have neglected the war for far too long already, Snorri should secluding himself while dwarfs and elves are dying.
Especially when the bonus we give the Thorng is as good as the rest of the Runelords marching combined...
 
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Hey folks, I'll be taking a break over January to rest, write other stuff and do some background cleanup flesh out for Rhunrikki and my existing notes. Which is why Im pausing billing so I can focus on that and not feel bad about not making it worth your value to keep supporting me. I'll be active still, but yeah. Anyways, hope you enjoy the New Year! :^)
 
Happy New Year soulcake, and I hope that your break is restful indeed. I can only begin to imagine the background workings of Rhunrikki Strollar and their complexity.
 
That is a lot of assumptions, if ESP works like any other "Revolutionary" research that we have done until now (Metal Rune, Akazit, Movement of Things...) the first level is not going to cut it... We are going to need to reach level 2 or 3 before we get anything safe, usable, and reproducible, and that is anything between 20-40 actions on top of the 15 already needed for the first level...

So when we complete the ESP level 1 and the results almost certainly won´t cut it for our objectives, are you going to keep insisting on having another 3 monothematic turns?

The last time we went to battle we gave the Throng a +25 bonus which is more than the rest of the runesmiths in the Throng combined...

Snorri is a game-changer in this conflict with the Fimir, and to keep delaying our intervention until we have only 2 turns until the Fimir opens a Chaos Gate in our Backyard is extremely risky especially when the reward for getting ESP one turn before is unlikely to be anywhere as massive as you describe them...
Nope. If ESP part 1 doesn't result in what I expect, that being a Master Rune of Windsight and lots of drip progress into several subjects, then I will simply go to war and put ESP aside until some later point. Even if ESP does do what I expect, I'll put aside ESP part 2 for a good while.

As for the chaos gate since I need to deal with some misunderstandings here - something soul has said repeatedly is that it is a chance of a gate opening starting on that turn.

- Minimum 6 Turns (Turn 60) before a chance of a Chaos portal opening arises.

But my actual point is that if we go either we roll well and destroy a city or we do poorly and encounter a Meargh and then kill her. A crit fail on one of the five war rolls triggered the possibility of fighting a Meargh. If we go something very bad will happen to our enemies, regardless, and that means that we can easily add more time to the clock.

And what will happen when we complete ESP level 1 and we get nothing immediately usable out of it?

Because seriously, in EVERY new research tree that we have started in this quest, we have NEVER gotten anything usable out of it until levels 2-3, and I doubt that ESP is going to be an exception...
For all of those we didn't have an incomplete rune sitting in our hand waiting to be completed and ESP itself spawned as a side branch off of Mind of Things part 5. You can't compare them because of those two facts.
 
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Imagine snorii triple nat 100 the war roll and single handily ending a war the combined army of dwarf and elves could not with malekith and whiteboard failing.
 
Hey folks, I'll be taking a break over January to rest, write other stuff and do some background cleanup flesh out for Rhunrikki and my existing notes. Which is why Im pausing billing so I can focus on that and not feel bad about not making it worth your value to keep supporting me. I'll be active still, but yeah. Anyways, hope you enjoy the New Year! :^)
Rest well, soulcake!
 
For all of those we didn't have an incomplete rune sitting in our hand waiting to be completed and ESP itself spawned as a side branch off of Mind of Things part 5. You can't compare them because of those two facts.
The thing is that this is not a "Mind of Things 5b" like the other branches of research that can be completed in 2-3 levels, this is by the naming conventions of this quest it´s its own thing and is extremely likely that it follows the rules of "New Research"...

And about the incomplete rune, yeah we have it, but why are you so sure it can be completed with a single extra level? Even if we assume that with the incomplete rune, we have already completed level 1 of this tech tree, level 2 of basically all research that we have done until now is at best a barely usable prototype to be refined in the 3rd level, which is another 20 AP for getting it to be useful for us...

Nope. If ESP part 1 doesn't result in what I expect, that being a Master Rune of Windsight and lots of drip progress into several subjects, then I will simply go to war and put ESP aside until some later point. Even if ESP does do what I expect, I'll put aside ESP part 2 for a good while.
And if that is the case and the drip that you are that optimistic about doesn´t happen or just give us 1-2 points in the other projects we have lost two turns of prod for prod that would allow us to complete 2 projects, for what it is a very optimistic theory, not any solid facts...

So if your certainly optimistic predictions fail we have missed a couple of great opportunities for rushing to something that is, at best, a big maybe...
s for the chaos gate since I need to deal with some misunderstandings here - something soul has said repeatedly is that it is a chance of a gate opening starting on that turn

But my actual point is that if we go either we roll well and destroy a city or we do poorly and encounter a Meargh and then kill her. A crit fail on one of the five war rolls triggered the possibility of fighting a Meargh. If we go something very bad will happen to our enemies, regardless, and that means that we can easily add more time to the clock.
I know it is a chance, and you may call me a coward, but having a 20-30% chance of a Chaos gate opening on our home turf from turn 60 onwards is something that I would like to avoid...
 
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Imagine snorii triple nat 100 the war roll and single handily ending a war the combined army of dwarf and elves could not with malekith and whiteboard failing.
Malekith about to false flag the dawi: *Suddenly remembers the giant hellfire storm of one dawi* You know what lets just false flag not!china, dragons are less problematic.
 
The thing is that this is not a "Mind of Things 5b" like the other branches of research that can be completed in 2-3 levels, this is by the naming conventions of this quest it´s its own thing and is extremely likely that it follows the rules of "New Research"...

And about the incomplete rune, yeah we have it, but why are you so sure it can be completed with a single extra level? Even if we assume that with the incomplete rune, we have already completed level 1 of this tech tree, level 2 of basically all research that we have done until now is at best a barely usable prototype to be refined in the 3rd level, which is another 20 AP for getting it to be useful for us...


And if that is the case and the drip that you are that optimistic about doesn´t happen or just give us 1-2 points in the other projects we have lost two turns of prod for prod that would allow us to complete 2 projects, for what it is a very optimistic theory, not any solid facts...

So if your certainly optimistic predictions fail we have missed a couple of great opportunities for rushing to something that is, at best, a big maybe...

I know it is a chance, and you may call me a coward, but having a 20-30% chance of a Chaos gate opening on our home turf from turn 60 onwards is something that I would like to avoid...
You point to our past research projects to define the category of "New Research". This means that this category is defined by and thus limited to the circumstances around those past research projects and the qualities of those past research projects. You also make the claim that we won't gain something immediately useful out of it.

I was actually basically wrong to say "None of those started with an incomplete rune". Many research projects started with a rune, though none of them were given the Incomplete status. But going back and looking shows your claim to be wrong and that history actually supports my side. Many of our past research projects started with runes in hand, which we then upgraded or improved on the next level.

Diction Direction started with the Rune of Translation, a completed rune. Completing level one gave us the Rune of Speech.
- Diction Direction Pt. 1 complete! Pt. 2 unlocked!
-- New Rune Unlocked! Rune of Speech: Bearers of this Rune have their speech converted into fluid Khazalid, though it does not aid them in translating Khazalid back into their language.
-- Rune of Translation rendered redundant.

Movement of Things started with the Rune of Waking/Animation and Master Rune of Waking, both completed runes. Completing level one upgraded those runes, gave us the Rune of Prosthesis, and unlocked Mind of Things.
- The Movement of Things Pt. 1 complete! Pt. 2 unlocked! Variant Research unlocked: The Mind of Things
-- New Rune Unlocked! Rune of Prosthesis: Items inscribed with this rune can act as simple prosthetics. It cannot match natural Dwarf strength, offers no tactile feedback but can be mentally controlled. Better a nugget of gold than no gold at all.
-- Improved Master Rune and Rune of Waking! More fluid movement and improved strength.

The Rune of Reflection was present for Secrets of Light level one and completing level one gave us the Rune of Refraction, rendering Reflection redundant.
- Secrets of the Light Pt. 1 complete! Light, so small a thing, such a simple thing, yet perhaps there is more to this ephemeral thing which makes gems gleam and gold glitter?
-- New Rune Unlocked! Rune of Refractions: Allows for very rudimentary manipulation of light that hits the Rune. Changing the direction, the colour, even splitting it into multiple weaker beams. A nice trinket, fine perhaps for a toy, but it lacks the finesse or power to do much else.
-- Rune of Reflections rendered redundant.

Mind of Things worked similarly. Akazit level one gave us the Incomplete but still useful Rune of Calcination.

By looking at the history you reference, apparently without looking at it before you make that reference, we see that history says we will get something useful out of ESP level 1.

And if that is the case and the drip that you are that optimistic about doesn´t happen or just give us 1-2 points in the other projects we have lost two turns of prod for prod that would allow us to complete 2 projects, for what it is a very optimistic theory, not any solid facts...
Sure. That's a cost I and others are willing to pay. Just outright I'm willing to pay that cost.

They're getting completed before turn 60 anyway so. Every project brought up in this conversation can be completed between turn 56 and turn 60. Having those two turns of prod for prod doesn't actually change that.
 
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You point to our past research projects to define the category of "New Research". This means that this category is defined by and thus limited to the circumstances around those past research projects and the qualities of those past research projects. You also make the claim that we won't gain something immediately useful out of it.
I would say that all the runes that you have described have been not useful for us and they are even admitted by Snorri a WIP, The only we have used extensively is the rune forged limb, and we had to get a few levels on that to be up to our standards
Sure. That's a cost I and others are willing to pay. Just outright I'm willing to pay that cost.

They're getting completed before turn 60 anyway so. Every project brought up in this conversation can be completed between turn 56 and turn 60. Having those two turns of prod for prod doesn't actually change that.

Yeah, but the same thing can be said about doing ESP in 3 turns, we get on top of that the satisfaction of pushing the Doom countdown back and extra loot...

But since we are unlikely to convince each other about what we should do next turn let´s agree to disagree and wait to see what the 100 regular votes decide next turn...
 
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