On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.
And my point is that if all it came down to was age and prestige, Gormak would have been king of Krakka Drak long before Otrek who was much much younger got Trollslayer.
Age and prestige help. But they're just a part of the equation.
Fair point lineage also matters and in the context of 'Snori for Ancestor God' he isn't the closest to Thungi by a long shot, but I don't think that obviates the point about sufficient prestige getting one to Ancestor God like status, it just means it will be harder.
I don't understand why you brought up the derivation of runes.
In this I was pointing to physical descriptions of the rune and suggesting that I think we should cleave closer to that if possible in order to maximise our chance of replicating.
Your position seems to have been that you think the combo you presented the most likely to create an effect matching what is described by the rune list.
As far as I can tell the disagreement doesn't need to be more than that.
I don't understand this:
I don't know what you were trying to say here. Because function is related to derivation, when we see elements of a rune doing something in a different rune its because both of the runes are doing something similar even if that something is highly abstracted like forged limb, speech and fear all having mental effects.
However I also didn't want to just ignore something you were trying to say. Perhaps I should have just asked you to rephrase, like you've just done.
I wasn't totally sure why adding more connections would matter. Because I wasn't sure I thought you might have valued a connection to Spelleating in and of itself in someway, and I was going "here, Thungni's Presence also has a connection". I was also remembering the use of 'derivation' in the quote from Kinglugia you presented to me, and was led astray by that.
Fair point lineage also matters and in the context of 'Snori for Ancestor God' he isn't the closest to Thungi by a long shot, but I don't think that obviates the point about sufficient prestige getting one to Ancestor God like status, it just means it will be harder.
Its important to recognise that there is a huge gulf in status between the big 7 capital A Ancestor Gods and like all other technically a god ancestor gods.
As far as I'm aware, warhammer canon doesn't refer to any dwarves (even important historical figures) apart from those 7 as gods, with Gromrinbrindal being the closest anyone gets. Literally millenia of walking around showing up at the last minute to swing the tide of important battles and its not enough.
Regional, hold, guild and clan ancestor gods are as far as I'm aware just soulcake expanding out on the logical implications of WFB's basic worldbuilding.
Being the primary local "small a" ancestor god of a hold or region doesn't mean you're the second or third dwarf your ancestors will pray to for guidance it means you're the 8th.
E:
Yeah I think that's all the disagreement is as well.
I wasn't totally sure why adding more connections would matter. Because I wasn't sure I thought you might have valued a connection to Spelleating in someway, and I was going "here, Thungni's Presence also has a connection". I was also remembering the use of 'derivation' in the quote from Kinglugia you presented to me, and was led astray by that.
I'm not saying more connections. I'm saying fewer degrees of Kevin Bacon.
Just using the rune that is mentioned rather than saying Thungi has some relation to Spelleating, and Thungi's presense has some relation to Spelleating is true... and to be completely fair, it would have been very difficult for kinglugia to reference Thungi's Pressence as I don't think it existed at that point.
But Spelleating is Spelleating. There is no need to draw relations there.
I'm not saying more connections. I'm saying fewer degrees of Kevin Bacon.
Just using the rune that is mentioned rather than saying Thungi has some relation to Spelleating, and Thungi's presense has some relation to Spelleating is true... and to be completely fair, it would have been very difficult for kinglugia to reference Thungi's Pressence as I don't think it existed at that point.
But Spelleating is Spelleating. There is no need to draw relations there.
And yeah, the suggestion does present Spelleating and Soulcake did accept it. However, Spelleating is a bad choice for this due to what it does and Soul is not obligated to keep the suggested fluff in any way even if he likes the Rune that comes out of that fluff.
And yeah, the suggestion does present Spelleating and Soulcake did accept it. However, Spelleating is a bad choice for this due to what it does and Soul is not obligated to keep the suggested fluff in any way even if he likes the Rune that comes out of that fluff.
It eats magic.
We want things that drinks magic. Its pretty close. And the differences in behaviour are what the other two runes are for.
Thungni carries a lot of additional associations that we do not want or need, its worth pointing out that when we go all the way back to the WoG post, non of the uses mention antimagic and it explicitly says that it doesn't improve runes or their effects, the best it offers is that its related to spell eating.
THUNGNI:
Thungni is...complex and odd. The general trend of "things under their purview get better" that Ancestor Runes seem to follow breaks down here in a very fundamental way. Thungni as the Ancestor of Runesmiths should mean His Rune improves Runes and their effects. Yet it does not. Rather it seems to improve the craftsmanship of things. On weapons and armour, there has been a noted slowdown in terms of maintenance and degradation of the equipment itself and any Runes it bears. On structures, which is almost universally a Runesmith's workshop there has been a traceable improvement on the quality of goods leaving the shop in question, but again it could simply be because Runesmiths are a perfectionist sort and the Rune of Thungni is less seen in the workshops of Journeymen and Younger Masters who may not have learned the Rune yet. What CAN be said, is that Thungni's Rune has connections and roots similar to the Runes of Spellbreaking and Spelleating, which makes sense as Thungni is the dwarf credited with discovering Runecraft. Though both his parents have a say in that as well.
Well, that is a good plan and I would vote for it, but honestly seeing how our research on revolutionary topics has worked on this quest up to this point I doubt that we would get anything usable out of ESP research until we reach level 2 or even 3 (which is another 20-30 actions per level)...
I think stuff like that really depends on what the research actually gets us. For example, my suspicion for why Metallurgy is really slow is that the reward of getting to put more than 3 runes on something totally sounds amazing, but will probably be an actively bad thing on a 'are the mechanics fun and approachable'-level'. That whole tree is thus a perfect for acting as a longterm carrot just teasing us all along for centuries.
The reward for ESP is a bunch of other research opportunities and giving Soulcake the ability to write new kinds of cool descriptions. There is much less of a reason to delay that.
It eats magic.
We want things that drinks magic. Its pretty close. And the differences in behaviour are what the other two runes are for.
Thungni carries a lot of additional associations that we do not want or need, its worth pointing out that when we go all the way back to the WoG post, non of the uses mention antimagic and it explicitly says that it doesn't improve runes or their effects, the best it offers is that its related to spell eating.
There's also the rune of spelldrinking which we heavily speculated was a precursor to flamedrinking. Later it came up that Thungni's Presence is basically like 90% of spelldrinking and is likely part of the combo to make it. I think these days, the rune of Thungni has become the default rune of choice when we need a rune whose purpose is to regulate/move magic between the other runes in a combo or contraption.
A major part of spelleating is it makes the caster forget the spell for a time which nowhere to be found in flamedrinking and why spelldrinking/thungni's presence is the better option if we had all three available.
I feel like all of this can be easily resolved if we just trust our luck and utilise Soul provided "Just write a theme or function for a combo, I'll roll the die and see what Snorri cooks up".
I feel like all of this can be easily resolved if we just trust our luck and utilise Soul provided "Just write a theme or function for a combo, I'll roll the die and see what Snorri cooks up".
Once Snorri solves the consternation, he'll see that instead of having to fiddle his way through a combo and turn it into an entirely new master rune to then simplify down to the rune of flamedrinking, all he really had to do was put a negative sign on the rune of fire to invert its effects
Got mildly distracted. Back to the topic of the capstone gronti for a brief moment, one thing that does have to be acknowledged is that building it around turn 64 or 65 is likely to reveal people who go "So why didn't you build this earlier???" or otherwise realize in some sense what that open spot was for and now question why we did what we did.
And I'm not really concerned about that criticism. In light of the sheer scale and power this thing will represent, even if its made just out of Pure Gromril, plus the argument of "I wanted to get it right, so that I never have to replace it" is largely going to beggar any criticism. Dwarves culturally respect taking your time to do something right, or not doing it at all. Doubly so for magnificent and grand works.
Another argument we could make with reasonable evidence is that building up to the point we could achieve our vision took time - building the tools that will give you the material to achieve your vision is a well understood impediment for craftsmen in the Dwarves. These are some what related arguments, but one is about Runes and design and the other is material limitations.
On another topic, one of the reasons that I think ESP is better to do first and now rather than waffling around doing Anoqeyan or other stuff is because of two things: ESP is going to create a lot of research drip, and the reasons to do Anoqeyan first are not strong ones.
The three reasons for Anoqeyan I will directly point to are more progress to ESP, increased safety while working on ESP, and talking to the Archmages.
The cost of putting Anoqeyan first, in the hope that Anoqeyan might give progress into ESP, is a turn. ESP finishes on turn 58 instead of 57. This delays all its benefits by a turn. More if we don't rush it.
What do we get on that turn? A flimsy chance at extra progress. I think its flimsy because its a language we don't need to reach into in order to define Windsight. I'm going to point to the Brana here - the Brana do not even need Eltharin in order to describe Windsight to Snorri in a way he can understand.
We don't need it to describe what we are doing, nor what we want to achieve based on Snorri's own monologue during the invention of the Rune, and we can watch native speakers speak it if we want to watch the Winds move to its will. In fact, we'd have to if we want to use it as a study object for the Windsight eye, since Snorri speaking it causes nothing magical to occur.
In terms of changing the framework of magic and concepts in his mind, I don't think it is going to do much by itself because Eltharin was the one that opened the floodgates and enabled him to access all those books on Wind Theory and those are what really changed things. Those books took time. The future books that Anoqeyan opens up could provide progress, but it will take more time than is being discussed right now, and it is not a certainty they will give progress because the Ulgu book did not provide any.
Anoqeyan is a refinement - important for deeper works, but not where we are now.
In terms of talking to Archmages, they're gonna be here for a while, so learning it for them is not urgent and certainly not worth doing ESP second.
In terms of Anoqeyan improving safety, the danger comes from linking a faulty rune to his mind and that's a matter of Runesmithing. Anoqeyan is not going to warn him of dangers inside of Runesmithing.
All of this leaves us with two outcomes:
If we do Anoqeyan and a prod for prod to put into Monolith Mastery this turn and get no bonus drip into ESP, we are left with finishing ESP on turns 57 and 58 and moving on to Body and Soul on turn 59 and turn 60. (Anoqeyan, ESP, Mastery, Body, Soul all done by around Turn 60)
If we do Anoqeyan and a prod for prod to put into Monolith Mastery this turn and we do get bonus drip into ESP, we can finish ESP on turn 58 with enough room to do a prod for prod and do work on Body and Soul. (Anoqeyan, ESP, Mastery, Body, Soul all done by around Turn 59)
In terms of ESP and its research drip I expect it to give significant drip into Monolith Mastery. Enough to complete the remaining six progress left, because we can actually see what we're doing in detail at that point. May or may not also give progress into The Soul, because at that point we can also see into Mhorni or the waking elementals we create. Then we could focus on the Body and the Soul for turn 58 and 59 with prods and/or research while also doing Anoqeyan. (Anoqeyan, ESP, Mastery, Body, Soul all done by turn 59) If we get lucky with drip, the Soul will be completable with one prod, and the rest can go to the Body, likely completing all of these projects on turn 58.
In terms of ESP and its research drip if it gives no drip to Mastery or the Soul, well it takes till about turn 60 to finish Mastery, Body, Soul, and Anoqeyan.
None of this changes much if Anoqeyan gives progress to Monolith Mastery, which seems likely. Monolith Mastery is not the limiting project here, its getting done by the time we start Monolith Mastery is done regardless.
In terms of doing Anoqeyan first and then spending 3 ap on ESP for three turns, that buys us an additional space to prod for prod. Means Monolith Mastery, Body, and the Soul are all definitely done by turn 58, and ESP is done by turn 59. We could do our additional prod on turn 59, that potentially goes into something else. However, I do not favor this set up since spreading out ESP gets in the way of Crafting projects like the Banner, Brynbar, the Constellation Hammer, the Smelters, and yes even the Dragon. Basically any other research people want to do as well.
Compressing ESP into two turns allows us more flexibility in turns 58 and 59, instead of locking them up by spreading it out. Furthermore, we may not be able to spend this additional prod on much; the Body could reasonably end with the final refinement of the Rune of Waking Elementals. And as for Soul part two, I'm not sure, it might still exist. So spreading it out is competetive, but I think rushing ESP is better for reasons above.
E: As just an aside point not directly connected to anything above, ESP is also far more revolutionary than Anoqeyan and so going for it makes sense on that score, so we know how the table is going to completely change earlier and can thus account for it earlier.
Got mildly distracted. Back to the topic of the capstone gronti for a brief moment, one thing that does have to be acknowledged is that building it around turn 64 or 65 is likely to reveal people who go "So why didn't you build this earlier???" or otherwise realize in some sense what that open spot was for and now question why we did what we did.
And I'm not really concerned about that criticism. In light of the sheer scale and power this thing will represent, even if its made just out of Pure Gromril, plus the argument of "I wanted to get it right, so that I never have to replace it" is largely going to beggar any criticism. Dwarves culturally respect taking your time to do something right, or not doing it at all. Doubly so for magnificent and grand works.
Another argument we could make with reasonable evidence is that building up to the point we could achieve our vision took time - building the tools that will give you the material to achieve your vision is a well understood impediment for craftsmen in the Dwarves. These are some what related arguments, but one is about Runes and design and the other is material limitations.
On another topic, one of the reasons that I think ESP is better to do first and now rather than waffling around doing Anoqeyan or other stuff is because of two things: ESP is going to create a lot of research drip, and the reasons to do Anoqeyan first are not strong ones.
The three reasons for Anoqeyan I will directly point to are more progress to ESP, increased safety while working on ESP, and talking to the Archmages.
The cost of putting Anoqeyan first, in the hope that Anoqeyan might give progress into ESP, is a turn. ESP finishes on turn 58 instead of 57. This delays all its benefits by a turn. More if we don't rush it.
What do we get on that turn? A flimsy chance at extra progress. I think its flimsy because its a language we don't need to reach into in order to define Windsight. I'm going to point to the Brana here - the Brana do not even need Eltharin in order to describe Windsight to Snorri in a way he can understand.
We don't need it to describe what we are doing, nor what we want to achieve based on Snorri's own monologue during the invention of the Rune, and we can watch native speakers speak it if we want to watch the Winds move to its will. In fact, we'd have to if we want to use it as a study object for the Windsight eye, since Snorri speaking it causes nothing magical to occur.
In terms of changing the framework of magic and concepts in his mind, I don't think it is going to do much by itself because Eltharin was the one that opened the floodgates and enabled him to access all those books on Wind Theory and those are what really changed things. Those books took time. The future books that Anoqeyan opens up could provide progress, but it will take more time than is being discussed right now, and it is not a certainty they will give progress because the Ulgu book did not provide any.
Anoqeyan is a refinement - important for deeper works, but not where we are now.
In terms of talking to Archmages, they're gonna be here for a while, so learning it for them is not urgent and certainly not worth doing ESP second.
In terms of Anoqeyan improving safety, the danger comes from linking a faulty rune to his mind and that's a matter of Runesmithing. Anoqeyan is not going to warn him of dangers inside of Runesmithing.
All of this leaves us with two outcomes:
If we do Anoqeyan and a prod for prod to put into Monolith Mastery this turn and get no bonus drip into ESP, we are left with finishing ESP on turns 57 and 58 and moving on to Body and Soul on turn 59 and turn 60. (Anoqeyan, ESP, Mastery, Body, Soul all done by around Turn 60)
If we do Anoqeyan and a prod for prod to put into Monolith Mastery this turn and we do get bonus drip into ESP, we can finish ESP on turn 58 with enough room to do a prod for prod and do work on Body and Soul. (Anoqeyan, ESP, Mastery, Body, Soul all done by around Turn 59)
In terms of ESP and its research drip I expect it to give significant drip into Monolith Mastery. Enough to complete the remaining six progress left, because we can actually see what we're doing in detail at that point. May or may not also give progress into The Soul, because at that point we can also see into Mhorni or the waking elementals we create. Then we could focus on the Body and the Soul for turn 58 and 59 with prods and/or research while also doing Anoqeyan. (Anoqeyan, ESP, Mastery, Body, Soul all done by turn 59) If we get lucky with drip, the Soul will be completable with one prod, and the rest can go to the Body, likely completing all of these projects on turn 58.
In terms of ESP and its research drip if it gives no drip to Mastery or the Soul, well it takes till about turn 60 to finish Mastery, Body, Soul, and Anoqeyan.
None of this changes much if Anoqeyan gives progress to Monolith Mastery, which seems likely. Monolith Mastery is not the limiting project here, its getting done by the time we start Monolith Mastery is done regardless.
In terms of doing Anoqeyan first and then spending 3 ap on ESP for three turns, that buys us an additional space to prod for prod. Means Monolith Mastery, Body, and the Soul are all definitely done by turn 58, and ESP is done by turn 59. We could do our additional prod on turn 59, that potentially goes into something else. However, I do not favor this set up since spreading out ESP gets in the way of Crafting projects like the Banner, Brynbar, the Constellation Hammer, the Smelters, and yes even the Dragon. Basically any other research people want to do as well.
Compressing ESP into two turns allows us more flexibility in turns 58 and 59, instead of locking them up by spreading it out. Furthermore, we may not be able to spend this additional prod on much; the Body could reasonably end with the final refinement of the Rune of Waking Elementals. And as for Soul part two, I'm not sure, it might still exist. So spreading it out is competetive, but I think rushing ESP is better for reasons above.
E: As just an aside point not directly connected to anything above, ESP is also far more revolutionary than Anoqeyan and so going for it makes sense on that score, so we know how the table is going to completely change earlier and can thus account for it earlier.
And you keep deliberately ignoring that the Fimir are still sitting on a Massive Nuke that they can set off in 4 turns like an ostrich burying its head on the ground...
If you want to get the ESP thing done then let´s put 3 actions into it and finish in turn 58, but seriously we are out of excuses and urgent time-limited actions and we should put the effort to make sure that disaster that a Chaos Gate opening in our territory doesn´t happen...
Seriously @BungieONI I don´t see how ignoring the Fimir until they are two turns away from creating a Chaos Gate in our Backyard and losing the extremely efficient Prod for Prod mechanic for 2 whole turns is compensated by getting the first level of ESP done in turn 57 instead of 58...
Got mildly distracted. Back to the topic of the capstone gronti for a brief moment, one thing that does have to be acknowledged is that building it around turn 64 or 65 is likely to reveal people who go "So why didn't you build this earlier???" or otherwise realize in some sense what that open spot was for and now question why we did what we did.
And I'm not really concerned about that criticism. In light of the sheer scale and power this thing will represent, even if its made just out of Pure Gromril, plus the argument of "I wanted to get it right, so that I never have to replace it" is largely going to beggar any criticism. Dwarves culturally respect taking your time to do something right, or not doing it at all. Doubly so for magnificent and grand works.
Another argument we could make with reasonable evidence is that building up to the point we could achieve our vision took time - building the tools that will give you the material to achieve your vision is a well understood impediment for craftsmen in the Dwarves. These are some what related arguments, but one is about Runes and design and the other is material limitations.
On another topic, one of the reasons that I think ESP is better to do first and now rather than waffling around doing Anoqeyan or other stuff is because of two things: ESP is going to create a lot of research drip, and the reasons to do Anoqeyan first are not strong ones.
The three reasons for Anoqeyan I will directly point to are more progress to ESP, increased safety while working on ESP, and talking to the Archmages.
The cost of putting Anoqeyan first, in the hope that Anoqeyan might give progress into ESP, is a turn. ESP finishes on turn 58 instead of 57. This delays all its benefits by a turn. More if we don't rush it.
What do we get on that turn? A flimsy chance at extra progress. I think its flimsy because its a language we don't need to reach into in order to define Windsight. I'm going to point to the Brana here - the Brana do not even need Eltharin in order to describe Windsight to Snorri in a way he can understand.
We don't need it to describe what we are doing, nor what we want to achieve based on Snorri's own monologue during the invention of the Rune, and we can watch native speakers speak it if we want to watch the Winds move to its will. In fact, we'd have to if we want to use it as a study object for the Windsight eye, since Snorri speaking it causes nothing magical to occur.
In terms of changing the framework of magic and concepts in his mind, I don't think it is going to do much by itself because Eltharin was the one that opened the floodgates and enabled him to access all those books on Wind Theory and those are what really changed things. Those books took time. The future books that Anoqeyan opens up could provide progress, but it will take more time than is being discussed right now, and it is not a certainty they will give progress because the Ulgu book did not provide any.
Anoqeyan is a refinement - important for deeper works, but not where we are now.
In terms of talking to Archmages, they're gonna be here for a while, so learning it for them is not urgent and certainly not worth doing ESP second.
In terms of Anoqeyan improving safety, the danger comes from linking a faulty rune to his mind and that's a matter of Runesmithing. Anoqeyan is not going to warn him of dangers inside of Runesmithing.
All of this leaves us with two outcomes:
If we do Anoqeyan and a prod for prod to put into Monolith Mastery this turn and get no bonus drip into ESP, we are left with finishing ESP on turns 57 and 58 and moving on to Body and Soul on turn 59 and turn 60. (Anoqeyan, ESP, Mastery, Body, Soul all done by around Turn 60)
If we do Anoqeyan and a prod for prod to put into Monolith Mastery this turn and we do get bonus drip into ESP, we can finish ESP on turn 58 with enough room to do a prod for prod and do work on Body and Soul. (Anoqeyan, ESP, Mastery, Body, Soul all done by around Turn 59)
In terms of ESP and its research drip I expect it to give significant drip into Monolith Mastery. Enough to complete the remaining six progress left, because we can actually see what we're doing in detail at that point. May or may not also give progress into The Soul, because at that point we can also see into Mhorni or the waking elementals we create. Then we could focus on the Body and the Soul for turn 58 and 59 with prods and/or research while also doing Anoqeyan. (Anoqeyan, ESP, Mastery, Body, Soul all done by turn 59) If we get lucky with drip, the Soul will be completable with one prod, and the rest can go to the Body, likely completing all of these projects on turn 58.
In terms of ESP and its research drip if it gives no drip to Mastery or the Soul, well it takes till about turn 60 to finish Mastery, Body, Soul, and Anoqeyan.
None of this changes much if Anoqeyan gives progress to Monolith Mastery, which seems likely. Monolith Mastery is not the limiting project here, its getting done by the time we start Monolith Mastery is done regardless.
In terms of doing Anoqeyan first and then spending 3 ap on ESP for three turns, that buys us an additional space to prod for prod. Means Monolith Mastery, Body, and the Soul are all definitely done by turn 58, and ESP is done by turn 59. We could do our additional prod on turn 59, that potentially goes into something else. However, I do not favor this set up since spreading out ESP gets in the way of Crafting projects like the Banner, Brynbar, the Constellation Hammer, the Smelters, and yes even the Dragon. Basically any other research people want to do as well.
Compressing ESP into two turns allows us more flexibility in turns 58 and 59, instead of locking them up by spreading it out. Furthermore, we may not be able to spend this additional prod on much; the Body could reasonably end with the final refinement of the Rune of Waking Elementals. And as for Soul part two, I'm not sure, it might still exist. So spreading it out is competetive, but I think rushing ESP is better for reasons above.
E: As just an aside point not directly connected to anything above, ESP is also far more revolutionary than Anoqeyan and so going for it makes sense on that score, so we know how the table is going to completely change earlier and can thus account for it earlier.
I agree with your points on Anoqueyan not being a priority.
Your argument for doing 2 full turns of nothing put ESP not so much.
Regarding Prods:
We have been chipping away at Monolith Mastery instead of completing Body or Soul for several turns now on the argument that it is the most important option.
Suddenly giving up on prods when all 3 options are only 1 turn from completion is deeply unsatisfying.
Even if you should be right and Prods stop being aplicable to Monolioth Mastery, Body and Soul after the current level that would be an argument for using prods on them now because using them later is not an option.
Regarding Researchdrip:
We have never had 6 progress drip into anything (the most I can remember is 3 or possibly 4), I don't see why this would change here.
In general, prioritising ESP to gain researchdrip doesn't make much sense to me.
We will still gain that free progress, just for the next level, which is preferable since prods might not be usable there or grant lower dice.
On going all in in general:
It means pushing Campaigning back for at least 2 decades, at that point we would have been sitting the war out for half a century.
Snorri is a dwarf who is big on Valayan values of protecting dwarfkind, his home is in the middle of a constantly escalating war where major holds are getting sacked by an enemy he has leveled a grudge against. He is also, by his own reckoning, the most deadly dwarf in the north, including the throng of KaK.
And he decides to ignore all of this to do fundamental research that is so marginally connected to the war effort that noone argues that our grudge should proc on it.
That just doesn't make sense to me.
The mechanical benefits for going to war are also quite decent, we get loot and a chance at a runetrade with one of the southern runelords.
Wonder if the capstone gronti would affect the giant ritual known as khazagar since it was always an intended part of it....perhaps the ritual is not yet complete and we have not seen the full effects of the building yet
And you keep willingly ignoring that the Fimir are still sitting on a Massive Nuke that they can set off in 4 turns like an ostrich burying its head on the ground...
If you want to get the ESP thing done then let´s put 3 actions into it and finish in turn 57, but seriously we are out of excuses and urgent time-limited actions and we should put the effort to make sure that disaster that a Chaos Gate opening in our territory doesn´t happen...
Can't finish ESP on turn 57 after putting 3 actions in.
We have time to destroy more cities and the capability to do so. I therefore have a difference sense of urgency on the war than you do, and if you wish to disrespect me, then I have no reason to keep engaging in this part of the conversation.
I explain this isn't what happens in my post. We don't lose out on them, because we get all the projects done at roughly the same time regardless of how we arrange prods. Out of Anoqeyan, Monolith Mastery, Body, Soul, and ESP, the most consistent time to finish all of these for every way of arranging these projects is Turn 59.
We can take Prod for Prod once and only once a turn. On average we finish one of Monolith, Body, or Soul per turn - it doesn't matter how you arrange this stuff, roughly one gets finished every turn. Legit, it really doesn't change, regardless of who is speaking, if we only use prods.
I agree with your points on Anoqueyan not being a priority.
Your argument for doing 2 full turns of nothing put ESP not so much.
Regarding Prods:
We have been chipping away at Monolith Mastery instead of completing Body or Soul for several turns now on the argument that it is the most important option.
Suddenly giving up on prods when all 3 options are only 1 turn from completion is deeply unsatisfying.
Even if you should be right and Prods stop being aplicable to Monolioth Mastery, Body and Soul after the current level that would be an argument for using prods on them now because using them later is not an option.
Regarding Researchdrip:
We have never had 6 progress drip into anything (the most I can remember is 3 or possibly 4), I don't see why this would change here.
In general, prioritising ESP to gain researchdrip doesn't make much sense to me.
We will still gain that free progress, just for the next level, which is preferable since prods might not be usable there or grant lower dice.
On going all in in general:
It means pushing Campaigning back for at least 2 decades, at that point we would have been sitting the war out for half a century.
Snorri is a dwarf who is big on Valayan values of protecting dwarfkind, his home is in the middle of a constantly escalating war where major holds are getting sacked by an enemy he has leveled a grudge against. He is also, by his own reckoning, the most deadly dwarf in the north, including the throng of KaK.
And he decides to ignore all of this to do fundamental research that is so marginally connected to the war effort that noone argues that our grudge should proc on it.
That just doesn't make sense to me.
The mechanical benefits for going to war are also quite decent, we get loot and a chance at a runetrade with one of the southern runelords.
I was not saying that prods stop being applicable or that we'll stop being able to spend them and they'll go to waste. When I was talking about Prods and Body and the Soul my point was that I think Body as an option will stop existing. I don't think there's anything further down that path once Waking Elements is completed.
I also said that I am not sure if there will be a Soul part 2 or not. Could exist, and there's something we could spend more prods on.
I didn't talk about Monolith Mastery and its next part, because I didn't really think about it and was not including it. I did not think about it because I don't care about the next part right now. With ESP and our current Monolith Mastery I see our chance of Danger dropping below 20%, which is enough for me to feel comfortable using them for only one turn (definitely not continuously). And that is all my plans for the smelters need. And before somebody worries, that is a chance of some kind of danger. There's a scale of possible outcomes, which are Bad, but I'm willing to give it a go because that scale exists and it does not start at "daemon portal".
Regarding Research drip, ESP research drip is valuable if you are trying to get a set number of projects done in as few turns as possible. Which is my entire goal underlying this discussion. Out of all of the proposed ways of arranging things, the primary way to get that set number of projects done as fast as possible is by rushing ESP first, for that research drip. If that works out, its faster than anything else.
Here's a note pointing back to the above discussion on prods. If rushing ESP does not finish Monolith Mastery and leaves it at 2, then we have a way to arrange things to get an amount of progress into Monolith Mastery part 2 comparable to doing ESP over three turns. Also assuming that part 2 of Monolith Mastery loses the ability to spend prods on it.
Math is down here.
ESP over three turns
Turn 56 4 actions to Monolith Mastery, Prod for Prod. 6 prods progress to Monolith Mastery, its done. 6 progress to Monolith Mastery part 2.
Turn 57 3 actions to ESP, Prod for Prod, Fifth Action. The Soul part 1 completed.
Turn 58 3 actions to ESP, Prod for Prod, Fifth Action. The Body completed.
Turn 59 3 actions to ESP, Prod for Prod, Fifth Action. The Soul part 2 progress. ??? progress to the Soul part 2 from ESP. 4 progress from ESP to Monolith Mastery part 2.
Turn 60 4 actions to Monolith Mastery part 2, Prod for Prod, Fifth Action. 6 progress to Monolith Mastery part 2. Prod progress to the Soul part 2.
Totals up to 16 progress to Monolith Mastery part 2.
ESP over two turns
Turn 56 ESP.
Turn 57 ESP. 4 progress to Monolith Mastery from ESP. ??? progress to the Soul from ESP.
Turn 58 4 actions to Monolith Mastery, Prod for Prod, Fifth Action. 2 prods progress to Monolith Mastery. 4 remaining prod progress + 6 progress to Monolith Mastery part 2.
Turn 59 Something Else, Prod for Prod, Fifth Action. The Soul completed and progress the Body from prods.
Turn 60 4 actions to Monolith Mastery part 2, Prod for Prod, Fifth Action. 6 progress to Monolith Mastery part 2. ??? Prod progress, enough to to finish the Body and progress the Soul part 2.
Totals up to 16 progress to Monolith Mastery part 2. Could be more if we decide to.
The point of me demonstrating this is that I am trying to convince you to do ESP over two turns, but NOT to do my exact plans or vote for me. I've basically shifted into giving advice mode at this point, after running the math. This is because if you want to focus on Monolith Mastery and Soul and Body, then the math above shows that doing ESP over two turns is actually better for your goals.
If you want to focus on these projects my advice would be to put two turns of ESP back to back somewhere (doesn't need to be this turn), then make arguments for why Monolith Mastery part 2 and Soul part 2 should be prioritized over Anoqeyan or Smelter building.
You just have more space to *do* stuff that way.
Regarding on going all in in general my view of it is like this. I square not going to war like this;
I as a player know that Snorri will not die in this war (it is almost impossible to kill him), but Snorri as a character does not.
I think he could make a justification of "Before I go into potential death, make sure I leave a legacy that Karstah can carry on". And a crack in Durin's Consternation is really important as a legacy.
Furthermore, by gifting that ring to the King, he is significantly contributing to the war. I expect it to show up as a discrete bonus on the rolls which generate our war results every turn or otherwise impact them positively.
Finally, several of his retainers died in the Nurgle city. I believe it is reasonable for him to direct Karstah to build them a Banner, while he works on his own legacy, before next taking them to war. Particularly since the fight is getting harder.
I don't think Snorri would be completely satisfied in staying out for another two turns, but I think he could feel justified. And its because of that that I want to go back to war on turn 58. Because justification only goes for so long.
Regarding on going all in in general my view of it is like this. I square not going to war like this;
I as a player know that Snorri will not die in this war (it is almost impossible to kill him), but Snorri as a character does not.
I think he could make a justification of "Before I go into potential death, make sure I leave a legacy that Karstah can carry on". And a crack in Durin's Consternation is really important as a legacy.
Furthermore, by gifting that ring to the King, he is significantly contributing to the war. I expect it to show up as a discrete bonus on the rolls which generate our war results every turn or otherwise impact them positively.
Finally, several of his retainers died in the Nurgle city. I believe it is reasonable for him to direct Karstah to build them a Banner, while he works on his own legacy, before next taking them to war. Particularly since the fight is getting harder.
I don't think Snorri would be completely satisfied in staying out for another two turns, but I think he could feel justified. And its because of that that I want to go back to war on turn 58. Because justification only goes for so long.
We haven´t had that sort of urgent need to leave a legacy behind before marching to war never before, and we have marched into worse places with less support... And it is pretty weird being worried about leaving a legacy behind after just finishing, well Khazagar...
So you have to admit that is a pretty sketchy justification at best...
Can't finish ESP on turn 57 after putting 3 actions in.
We have time to destroy more cities and the capability to do so. I therefore have a difference sense of urgency on the war than you do, and if you wish to disrespect me, then I have no reason to keep engaging in this part of the conversation.
I explain this isn't what happens in my post. We don't lose out on them, because we get all the projects done at roughly the same time regardless of how we arrange prods. Out of Anoqeyan, Monolith Mastery, Body, Soul, and ESP, the most consistent time to finish all of these for every way of arranging these projects is Turn 59.
We can take Prod for Prod once and only once a turn. On average we finish one of Monolith, Body, or Soul per turn - it doesn't matter how you arrange this stuff, roughly one gets finished every turn. Legit, it really doesn't change, regardless of who is speaking, if we only use prods.
I was not saying that prods stop being applicable or that we'll stop being able to spend them and they'll go to waste. When I was talking about Prods and Body and the Soul my point was that I think Body as an option will stop existing. I don't think there's anything further down that path once Waking Elements is completed.
I also said that I am not sure if there will be a Soul part 2 or not. Could exist, and there's something we could spend more prods on.
I didn't talk about Monolith Mastery and its next part, because I didn't really think about it and was not including it. I did not think about it because I don't care about the next part right now. With ESP and our current Monolith Mastery I see our chance of Danger dropping below 20%, which is enough for me to feel comfortable using them for only one turn (definitely not continuously). And that is all my plans for the smelters need. And before somebody worries, that is a chance of some kind of danger. There's a scale of possible outcomes, which are Bad, but I'm willing to give it a go because that scale exists and it does not start at "daemon portal".
Regarding Research drip, ESP research drip is valuable if you are trying to get a set number of projects done in as few turns as possible. Which is my entire goal underlying this discussion. Out of all of the proposed ways of arranging things, the primary way to get that set number of projects done as fast as possible is by rushing ESP first, for that research drip. If that works out, its faster than anything else.
Here's a note pointing back to the above discussion on prods. If rushing ESP does not finish Monolith Mastery and leaves it at 2, then we have a way to arrange things to get an amount of progress into Monolith Mastery part 2 comparable to doing ESP over three turns. Also assuming that part 2 of Monolith Mastery loses the ability to spend prods on it.
Math is down here.
ESP over three turns
Turn 56 4 actions to Monolith Mastery, Prod for Prod. 6 prods progress to Monolith Mastery, its done. 6 progress to Monolith Mastery part 2.
Turn 57 3 actions to ESP, Prod for Prod, Fifth Action. The Soul part 1 completed.
Turn 58 3 actions to ESP, Prod for Prod, Fifth Action. The Body completed.
Turn 59 3 actions to ESP, Prod for Prod, Fifth Action. The Soul part 2 progress. ??? progress to the Soul part 2 from ESP. 4 progress from ESP to Monolith Mastery part 2.
Turn 60 4 actions to Monolith Mastery part 2, Prod for Prod, Fifth Action. 6 progress to Monolith Mastery part 2. Prod progress to the Soul part 2.
Totals up to 16 progress to Monolith Mastery part 2.
ESP over two turns
Turn 56 ESP.
Turn 57 ESP. 4 progress to Monolith Mastery from ESP. ??? progress to the Soul from ESP.
Turn 58 4 actions to Monolith Mastery, Prod for Prod, Fifth Action. 2 prods progress to Monolith Mastery. 4 remaining prod progress + 6 progress to Monolith Mastery part 2.
Turn 59 Something Else, Prod for Prod, Fifth Action. The Soul completed and progress the Body from prods.
Turn 60 4 actions to Monolith Mastery part 2, Prod for Prod, Fifth Action. 6 progress to Monolith Mastery part 2. ??? Prod progress, enough to to finish the Body and progress the Soul part 2.
Totals up to 16 progress to Monolith Mastery part 2. Could be more if we decide to.
The point of me demonstrating this is that I am trying to convince you to do ESP over two turns, but NOT to do my exact plans or vote for me. I've basically shifted into giving advice mode at this point, after running the math. This is because if you want to focus on Monolith Mastery and Soul and Body, then the math above shows that doing ESP over two turns is actually better for your goals.
If you want to focus on these projects my advice would be to put two turns of ESP back to back somewhere (doesn't need to be this turn), then make arguments for why Monolith Mastery part 2 and Soul part 2 should be prioritized over Anoqeyan or Smelter building.
You just have more space to *do* stuff that way.
Regarding on going all in in general my view of it is like this. I square not going to war like this;
I as a player know that Snorri will not die in this war (it is almost impossible to kill him), but Snorri as a character does not.
I think he could make a justification of "Before I go into potential death, make sure I leave a legacy that Karstah can carry on". And a crack in Durin's Consternation is really important as a legacy.
Furthermore, by gifting that ring to the King, he is significantly contributing to the war. I expect it to show up as a discrete bonus on the rolls which generate our war results every turn or otherwise impact them positively.
Finally, several of his retainers died in the Nurgle city. I believe it is reasonable for him to direct Karstah to build them a Banner, while he works on his own legacy, before next taking them to war. Particularly since the fight is getting harder.
I don't think Snorri would be completely satisfied in staying out for another two turns, but I think he could feel justified. And its because of that that I want to go back to war on turn 58. Because justification only goes for so long.
I wasn't arguing for pursuing Monolith mastery 2 or Soul 2, I was pointing out that researchdrip wouldn't be lost by completing the current part first.
I have no longterm goals in this quest and am quite content with most research we could pursue.
In general I belief that maximising mechanical gains should take a backseat behind narrative and characterisation, which is why I belief that campaigning is something we should do relatively often, not push back as much as possible.
On your points against campaigning now:
I disagree with Snorri feeling a need to leave an even bigger legacy for Karstah, I can't think of an instance where this was hinted at.
Karstah could realistically plan and craft the banner in the same turn we go on campaign, we have done something similar several times.
The coronation gift, while likely to be used in the war, was made as a coronation gift, I don't see making it as war participation.
The ring's design was made for the specific purpose of Meargh killing as well as putting together a long term path for a true death rune. It's a gift yes, but one meant specifically for the war.
On the topic of narrative, this war isn't ending anytime soon and rather follow Snorri's path towards revolutionizing runesmithing. There's a general idea towards spending an entire turn all out on the war once certain items have been built. Windsight is going to take 2 turns of effort and sooner it's done, the sooner it'll be useful for everything else we do. The war is going fine right now and Snorri is not a micromanager especially with the High King here.
Edit: If you want to really go into narratives here, we are so so close to finally finishing rune metal after 55 turns. Once esp is done, all that is left is akazit which we our traits proc so much bonus progress into. If it wasn't for the war, we might actually have been able to complete the longest running narrative in the quest within 5-8 turns.
I wasn't arguing for pursuing Monolith mastery 2 or Soul 2, I was pointing out that researchdrip wouldn't be lost by completing the current part first.
I have no longterm goals in this quest and am quite content with most research we could pursue.
In general I belief that maximising mechanical gains should take a backseat behind narrative and characterisation, which is why I belief that campaigning is something we should do relatively often, not push back as much as possible.
On your points against campaigning now:
I disagree with Snorri feeling a need to leave an even bigger legacy for Karstah, I can't think of an instance where this was hinted at.
Karstah could realistically plan and craft the banner in the same turn we go on campaign, we have done something similar several times.
The coronation gift, while likely to be used in the war, was made as a coronation gift, I don't see making it as war participation.
The points I was making were a mixture of two kinds. Feelings that reasonably exist within Snorri now, which are the retainer and king's gift points. The third is a potential line of reasoning Snorri could engage in, which is why hints of it have not really appeared before, and is why hints of it not being present isn't a critique of the point.
With the fighting getting harder he may deem it wise to make sure Windsight is completed, safe to use, and in the hands of his heir, given its critical importance to the future of Runesmithing beyond this war. And I think he would be emotionally justified in that line of reasoning, because of how Yorri reacted when Windsight was revealed to him.
I'd understand not agreeing with this line of reasoning.
As for the Retainer banner, we could do as you say. I'm not going to challenge that.
The King's ring is absolutely a case of being designed for deleting Fimir, Daemons, and anything else he fights going forward for the rest of time. That was always the point of it - a weapon for all wars to come as a gift.
But if the only valid form of war participation is going into battle himself, like what you are describing in your disagreement, that's a pretty narrow definition. This idea that what Snorri creates is not war participation, unintentionally I think, cuts out the predominant section of Snorri's abilities and character. And that is doing the narrative and his abilities a disservice.
On the topic of narrative, this war isn't ending anytime soon and rather follow Snorri's path towards revolutionizing runesmithing. There's a general idea towards spending an entire turn all out on the war once certain items have been built. Windsight is going to take 2 turns of effort and sooner it's done, the sooner it'll be useful for everything else we do.
With the fighting getting harder he may deem it wise to make sure Windsight is completed, safe to use, and in the hands of his heir, given its critical importance to the future of Runesmithing beyond this war. And I think he would be emotionally justified in that line of reasoning, because of how Yorri reacted when Windsight was revealed to him.
You are being too optimistic with those assumptions that we will unlock everything we want of ESP with level 1, if ESP works like any other "Revolutionary" research that we have done until now (Metal Rune, Akazit, Movement of Things...) the first level is not going to cut it... We are going to need to reach level 2 or 3 before we get anything safe, usable, and reproducible, and that is anything between 20-40 actions on top of the 15 already needed for the first level...
So when we complete the ESP level 1 and the results almost certainly won´t cut it for our objectives, are you going to keep insisting on having another 3 monothematic turns (on top of those other two previous turns) while forgetting for months IRL of any other research or project?
But if the only valid form of war participation is going into battle himself, like what you are describing in your disagreement, that's a pretty narrow definition. This idea that what Snorri creates is not war participation, unintentionally I think, cuts out the predominant section of Snorri's abilities and character. And that is doing the narrative and his abilities a disservice.
The last time we went to battle we gave the Throng a +25 bonus which is more than the rest of the runesmiths in the Throng combined...
Snorri is a game-changer in this conflict with the Fimir, and to keep delaying our intervention until we have only 2 turns before the Fimir opens a Chaos Gate in our Backyard is extremely risky especially when the reward for getting ESP level 1 one turn before is unlikely to be anywhere as massive as you describe them...
You are being too optimistic with those assumptions, if ESP works like any other "Revolutionary" research that we have done until now (Metal Rune, Akazit, Movement of Things...) the first level is not going to cut it... We are going to need to reach level 2 or 3 before we get anything safe, usable, and reproducible, and that is anything between 20-40 actions on top of the 15 already needed for the first level...
So when we complete the ESP level 1 and the results almost certainly won´t cut it for our objectives, are you going to keep insisting on having another 3 monothematic turns (on top of those other two previous turns) while forgetting for months IRL of any other research or project?
The last time we went to battle we gave the Throng a +25 bonus which is more than the rest of the runesmiths in the Throng combined...
Snorri is a game-changer in this conflict with the Fimir, and to keep delaying our intervention until we have only 2 turns before the Fimir opens a Chaos Gate in our Backyard is extremely risky especially when the reward for getting ESP level 1 one turn before is unlikely to be anywhere as massive as you describe them...
We're going into turn 56, the gate is pushed back to turn earliest possible chance at the end of turn 60. That's all of 58, 59, and 60 to push it back assuming the High King and Malekith twiddle their thumbs for two straight turns and if they get a city this turn it'll be T61 at the earliest.
You're right about ESP progress coming in stages but we're already at level 1 so to speak. We already have the incomplete rune. ESP 1 if it follows the pattern of other trees will complete the rune (how movement gave us incomplete siphoning then finished it). I expect it will be windsight as mages have it, which is enough for akazit, rune metal, waystones, and all other mat sci projects. What I'm not expecting out of it is being able to see into a rune, that'll be further down the line. I'd agree it's not worth going all in on it if all we'd get is an incomplete rune but that's not where it's at.
So yes, I think two turns of it is enough for the most important projects other than the consternation itself.
